Jim in Anchorage Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I have been reading a lot that the Jets have a super bowl defense, yet they are 15th in points allowed. Is not keeping the other team from scoring the ultimate goal? Who cares how many non-scoring yards they get against you?
BuffaloBillsSD Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Total points allowed-(TD after INT, fumble returned for TD, kick/punt return TD, and TD's allowed after a turnover inside the 40)
Jim in Anchorage Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 Total points allowed-(TD after INT, fumble returned for TD, kick/punt return TD, and TD's allowed after a turnover inside the 40) That is a good way to fine tune it,although I would go with turnovers inside the 20.
BuffaloBillsSD Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 That is a good way to fine tune it,although I would go with turnovers inside the 20. JIA- If a team gets it at the 40 then 1 first down puts them in FG range which is why I use inside the 40. I don't think a defense should be penalized for giving up 1 first down.
Jim in Anchorage Posted November 19, 2011 Author Posted November 19, 2011 JIA- If a team gets it at the 40 then 1 first down puts them in FG range which is why I use inside the 40. I don't think a defense should be penalized for giving up 1 first down. But it is in their hands. How many 1st and goal at the 1 have you seen shut down to 2nd and 3rd and 4th to goal? lots. If they rise to the task they stop that 1st down at the 40.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I have been reading a lot that the Jets have a super bowl defense, yet they are 15th in points allowed. Is not keeping the other team from scoring the ultimate goal? Who cares how many non-scoring yards they get against you? points
jcbillsfan Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Points allowed is misleading at times one or two bad games ( some of all might not be the d's fault, injuries, turnovers ect) can lead to inflated totals The jets have an above average defense no matter what the rankings say, all you have to do is watch them play Our defense is getting better as well. Although not were it needs to be the Run defense has been a lot better , nowhere near where it needs to be but cleary better
EldaBillsFan Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I think we have the talent....I just don't like the scheme....and we give opposing offenses way too much respect
Pirate Angel Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I would rank it by using a hybrid defense...if you line up 4-3 back up defensive tackles at linebacker or a back up safety at linebacker or put a small backup linebacker with his hand down your defensive line you defense is going to be pretty bad. Good defensive have linebackers playing linebacker, lineman on the line, safeties at safety.
eSJayDee Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I think if you're gonna base it on only 1 statistic, yards allowed is the most accurate. What's worse? Allowing an 80 yd drive for a TD or a 10 yd TD drive (or, even worse, allowing a TD when you're not even on the field)? Likewise, if teams drive 60 yds on you almost everytime, it's very difficult on the offense, even if they're only getting mostly FGs. ie you let up only 20 pts (which is avg) but allow 6 ~6 minute drives, your offense isn't going to get many opportunities to exceed that 20 pts & you're gonna lose more often than not.
NoSaint Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 JIA- If a team gets it at the 40 then 1 first down puts them in FG range which is why I use inside the 40. I don't think a defense should be penalized for giving up 1 first down. Dont even need a first. 7 yards makes a 50 yarder.
silvermike Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Both. If they're starkly different, start looking at the offense and the breaks of the season to figure out which is a better indicator.
PromoTheRobot Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Yards are a measure but points is what counts in the end. We could give up 1,000 yds a game as long as we hold the team to 13 points or less. PTR
3rdnlng Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Points are what count but you have to take into consideration the time of possession game. Let's say you give up 20 points in the game but allow the other team to control the clock for 38 minutes with long scoring (and non-scoring) drives. That leaves 22 minutes for your offense to score more than 20 points to win the game. In that case you'd better be a quick scoring team or you're screwed.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 I have been reading a lot that the Jets have a super bowl defense, yet they are 15th in points allowed. Is not keeping the other team from scoring the ultimate goal? Who cares how many non-scoring yards they get against you? I think this is a bit like asking whether the chocolate or the coffee is the most important part of a cafe' mocha. Leave either part out, and it's not a cafe' mocha, right? The goal is to wind up with more points on the board than the other team. There are two points to this: 1) keep the other team from scoring points 2) get the other team off the field quickly so as to give your offense more time/chances I used to feel that points given up were the bottom line, and more important. However, keeping your offense ON the field is also important, unless they are constantly throwing pick-6; it allows them to keep trying until they get it right, and allows them to relax because they know if they make a mistake, they can count on the D to give them another chance to get it right. So minimizing the # plays by the other team's offense is also pretty important, and that usually correlates pretty tightly to minimizing the other team's yards. Yards are a measure but points is what counts in the end. We could give up 1,000 yds a game as long as we hold the team to 13 points or less. PTR Ah, Promo - as TBD's Franchise Poster, I guess we gotta love ya, but....if we hold the other team to 13 points, but our team only scores 12, we still lose. And if we give up 1000 yds a game, it is highly likely our O is getting blood-blisters on their butts from squirming on the bench. So that score <13 thing? It's likely.
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted November 19, 2011 Posted November 19, 2011 Points are the only thing that technically matters, but points allowed and yards allowed are correlated closely enough that yards allowed (situationally) can be analyzed to predict future returns.
macaroni Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 wins Ding ... ding ..... ding IMHO, It depends on how you designed your team and what roll your defense plays in it. For example years ago when the Rams had the "Best show on turf" and more reciently with the Colts ... the defense is supposed to slow the opponents enough so the offense can score a zillion points. Conversly the Ravens built their defense to totally shut down their opponents so they were able to win a super bowl with Trent Dilfer at QB. I think in todays day and age with free agency and general personnel turnover, the days of being able to amass 53 guys that dominate on both sides of the ball are over, therefore the way us old fogies used to "rank" performance is antiquated.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Ding ... ding ..... ding IMHO, It depends on how you designed your team and what roll your defense plays in it. For example years ago when the Rams had the "Best show on turf" and more reciently with the Colts ... the defense is supposed to slow the opponents enough so the offense can score a zillion points. Conversly the Ravens built their defense to totally shut down their opponents so they were able to win a super bowl with Trent Dilfer at QB. I think in todays day and age with free agency and general personnel turnover, the days of being able to amass 53 guys that dominate on both sides of the ball are over, therefore the way us old fogies used to "rank" performance is antiquated. To which latter the Houston Texans respond: "Antiquate THIS!" (I don't hear a lot of Talking Heads talking about them, but the Texans have quietly put together the 3rd best record in the league - and they are the only team that is top-5 in both O and D. Watch them.) You have an excellent point about "how the team is designed". Most teams that are winning, are in the top half of the league on both sides of the ball. However, to your point, there are 2 notable exceptions. NE is 4th in the league for points scored, 2nd in the league for yards gained - and 17th and 32 for points against/yards given up. NO is 2nd in the league for points scored, 1st for yards gained - and 20th/19th for points against/yards given up. So yeah, if it's really top flight on offense, a team can give up a lot of yardage and still win. But it's relatively rare - most of the consistent winners are relatively solid (at least top half of the league) on both sides of the ball. If we look at the top 10 teams in the league as far as WINS, we see that most are top five in either points scored, or points against, but not both (Exception: Texans). We also see that there is usually a correlation between points and yards, but not always - for example, GB is 13th in points against, but 28th in yards given up; Chicago is 14th in points against, but 25th in yards given up. But if you're giving up a lot of yards on D - it's not enough to have a good offense, you got to have a GREAT offense (GB, NO). The correlation between points and wins is stronger than the correlation between yards and wins, no surprise there - for yards, top teams show up in "yardage" that are nowhere in sight for the "wins" category (eg Iggles, Cowgirls). The inverse is not true - all of the top 5 teams for points (both sides of the ball) show up in the list of top 10 winning teams. I have a little table that illustrates all this very nicely, unfortunately I can't figure out how to construct a table on this board without way too much work for me to go through.
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