The Defensive shceme

[Homey D. Clown]

I played the quarterback position growing up and through College, but while my height and physical talent levels kept me from going anywhere with it as a career, I always took tremendous pride in reading the defense at the line of scrimmage, so as I sit and watch NFL games, I find myself actually reading the defense more often than what the offensive set is doing, something that used to be the other way around ironically.

 

What I see from the Bills on the defensive side of the ball is disjointed it's almost alarming to see how easy it is to open passing lanes, and get to the edge as a runner, or a quick out pattern. The team seems to have all the makings of a power 4-3 despite what they have been drafting for(3-4), and I don't mean the lousy Tampa 2 step either. I mean seriously strong front 4 with plenty of depth, and Line-backing corps that seem to just fit perfectly in the power 4-3. With Wilson and Scott as competent run stoppers, and Jairus Bird showing to be very capable in the run game, I don't understand why the massive hard-on the NFL now has with the 3-4.

 

Countless times this team has left passing lanes open even I could throw through, and it's obvious now that there aren't 2 OLBs on the team that can play the edge rush, or even get to the QB on a regular basis. As much as I love Moats for his desire and energy, I don't think the guy starts on the 31 other teams in the NFL right now, I still think though that he can develop.

 

The front 4 this team could feasibly field with JUST the guys on the current roster looks incredibly solid, if not a bit scary. Here's how I see that now:

 

Position.....Players

DE...........Dwan Edwards.....Kellen Heard

DT...........Kyle Williams....Torrel Troup

DT...........Marcel Dareus

DE...........Spencer Johnson..Alex Carrington

 

And the LB corps now look much deeper like this:

 

Position.....Players

LOLB.........Andra Davis......Kelvin Sheppard......Antonio Coleman

MLB..........Nick Barnett.....Kirk Morrison......Danny Batten

ROLB.........Shawn Merriman...Arthur Moats

 

Obviously positionally some players could be moved from side to side based on performance...etc.

 

Secondary, Keep:

 

George Wilson

Jairus Bird

Terrence McGee(For now)

Aaron Williams

Da'Norris Searcy

Bryan Scott

Justin Rodgers

Joshua Nesbitt

Cut the rest.

 

As for scheme, I'd love to see Dave Wannstedt take command with this concept and make the most out of these guys, it is painfully clear these guys are just not built for the 3-4. As it stands now the Bills defense could possibly give up the most points, yards avg per game, and several other infamous measurables this year, so I think it's time to bag this colossally bad idea. The team could make a mid-season scheme change and they couldn't play any worse, seriously, I don't think it's even possible a team could play any worse on defense, and I thought last year they were atrocious defensively.

Edited November 18, 2011 by McKinleys Curse

[Dorkington]

You do "read" that we are basically getting shredded on defense no matter what scheme we play, right? Coaches are part of the problem, but the other part is most of our players are not quality players.

[PromoTheRobot]

The Bills D looks like they are moving a step slower and bite on every fake. Though to be fair our DBs make some nice open field tackles: Byrd, Wilson & McGee.

 

PTR

[Dorkington]

The Bills D looks like they are moving a step slower and bite on every fake. Though to be fair our DBs make some nice open field tackles: Byrd, Wilson & McGee.

 

PTR

Byrd and Wilson's open field tackling have saved many plays. Unfortunately they are often already 20 yards down the field, but hey at least they aren't 40+ yard touchdown plays instead heh.

[PromoTheRobot]

Byrd and Wilson's open field tackling have saved many plays. Unfortunately they are often already 20 yards down the field, but hey at least they aren't 40+ yard touchdown plays instead heh.

That's not entirely true. I've seen Byrd and Wilson make lots of tackles of runners behind the line of scrimmage. But usually it's on 1st or 2nd down.

 

PTR

Edited November 18, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[Dorkington]

That's not entirely true. I've seen Byrd and Wilson make lots of tackles of runners behind the line of scrimmage.

 

PTR

Ok, how about this:

 

When they are around a ball carrier, they often times make a solid tackle.

 

If you think the opposing teams aren't ripping off huge plays before the tackle often times, then so be it. I agree with you on their tackling abilities, and I don't blame them, very often, for being the reason for the huge gains before the tackle.

[Homey D. Clown]

You do "read" that we are basically getting shredded on defense no matter what scheme we play, right? Coaches are part of the problem, but the other part is most of our players are not quality players.

 

Is that a rhetorical question? Is that not what I made painfully obvious? I disagree that most of the players on defense lack talent, but I don't think we have pro bowlers at every position either. Go ahead and fill the spots with the current roster as I did, then take a look at the limited number of picks and uncertainty the draft offers, THEN factor in the stingiest and most clueless NFL football mind the team has for an owner, and tell me what you would suggest as an alternative? Try to approach the problem realistically, and you can really feel the frustration a GM must have when looking at this problem.

 

For now, and the foreseeable future, I think a scheme change, a better defensive mind running that side of the ball, this is all you can do.

 

Ok, how about this:

 

When they are around a ball carrier, they often times make a solid tackle.

 

If you think the opposing teams aren't ripping off huge plays before the tackle often times, then so be it. I agree with you on their tackling abilities, and I don't blame them, very often, for being the reason for the huge gains before the tackle.

 

 

they are also leading the team in tackles, which says something about the 7 guys playing in front of them are rarely in position to even make the tackle.

[Fan in Chicago]

I played the quarterback position growing up and through College, but while my height and physical talent levels kept me from going anywhere with it as a career, I always took tremendous pride in reading the defense at the line of scrimmage, so as I sit and watch NFL games, I find myself actually reading the defense more often than what the offensive set is doing, something that used to be the other way around ironically.

 

 

Nice post and from someone knowledgeable about the game. I agree with you on most points. Despite said lack of talent on the OLB/DE position, I think the current unit is underperforming. In fact, I had even forgotten we still have Andra Davis on the roster till you and Simon reminded me. With the personnel we have, a competent coach with the right schemes could get a lot done. We need a Chan Gailey type on the D side of the ball. I have high hopes for our picks from last year and hope AWilliams does well at CB so we dont have to draft another one high.

[Dorkington]

Is that a rhetorical question? Is that not what I made painfully obvious? I disagree that most of the players on defense lack talent, but I don't think we have pro bowlers at every position either. Go ahead and fill the spots with the current roster as I did, then take a look at the limited number of picks and uncertainty the draft offers, THEN factor in the stingiest and most clueless NFL football mind the team has for an owner, and tell me what you would suggest as an alternative? Try to approach the problem realistically, and you can really feel the frustration a GM must have when looking at this problem.

 

For now, and the foreseeable future, I think a scheme change, a better defensive mind running that side of the ball, this is all you can do.

 

 

 

 

they are also leading the team in tackles, which says something about the 7 guys playing in front of them are rarely in position to even make the tackle.

 

My realistic approach?

 

We tough it out until Ralph dies. It's unlikely this team becomes anything other than mediocre while he's alive.

 

That being said, we've seen that we can do damage with the right matchups and a certain level of health, but it's no way reliable. I don't think putting people at certain positions, or changing schemes will really change all that much until Ralph is gone.

 

Oh, and fwiw. Davis is practically retired at this point, and Merriman probably won't be returning.

[Max997]

I like the way the broncos played defense last night and not bc they put a hurting on Sanchez

 

Their middle linebacker was actually in the middle covering those short dumpoffs and crossing patterns that just kill the Bills because their middle linebackers are never there

[PaattMaann]

good thing you played offense and not defense...andra davis should NOT be a starting ILB let alone OLB - which plays to all of his weaknesses- sure he could misread a few run plays a game and not attack the line of scrimmage...dont know why you wouldnt have Shepp. starting at either ILB or OLB with Barnett (and merrimans hurt for the season, and even if you pencil him in as starter next season he will only last a week or so in his steroid riddled body)...so hopefully in your scenario (which I kind of agree with in the 4-3 sense) we would start a rookie (or free agent if possible) at the other LB spot

 

we need to find a way to generate a pass rush...period...

 

I dont care if thats in the 3-4 or 4-3 or 2-5 or 1-9, doesnt matter, we need to do that or we will continue to stink

Edited November 18, 2011 by PaattMaann

[1billsfan]

George Edwards is the William Hung of defensive coordinators. But the real blame for the defense goes to Chan Gailey who has left him charge of the defense for a full year and a half.

 

If this were NY, Dallas, Pitt, Baltimore or any other professionally run NFL team, Edwards would have been fired a looooooong time ago. This is Buffalo however, where we love our retread coaching dinosaurs who are slower than slow to make any adjustments or decisions. But like Dick Jauron did with the offense, Chan Gailey just doesn't even care about the defense. He gets no questions from the local press because they're all clueless. Why no questions about Wannstedt and what his role with this team is? Why is no one asking why he hasn't replaced Edwards????? So when I bring this stuff up, peoples heads explode and they announce they're going to ignore me....LOL

 

The Jet and Cowboys blowout games were about bad coaching.

[Homey D. Clown]

good thing you played offense and not defense...andra davis should NOT be a starting ILB let alone OLB - which plays to all of his weaknesses- sure he could misread a few run plays a game and not attack the line of scrimmage...dont know why you wouldnt have Shepp. starting at either ILB or OLB with Barnett (and merrimans hurt for the season, and even if you pencil him in as starter next season he will only last a week or so in his steroid riddled body)...so hopefully in your scenario (which I kind of agree with in the 4-3 sense) we would start a rookie (or free agent if possible) at the other LB spot

 

we need to find a way to generate a pass rush...period...

 

I dont care if thats in the 3-4 or 4-3 or 2-5 or 1-9, doesnt matter, we need to do that or we will continue to stink

 

 

It would be a 1-6 actually. I put Andra Davis as a starter only because of his status coming out of preseason, but Merriman would definitely start for this team next year if he returns healthy from surgery. I still hold out hope he can return from this setback, and bear in mind this was all a concept lineup with many players overtaking starting spots based on performance. But until they draft a true OLB pass rushing threat, this scheme change would not address that part of the problem, but I do think with a healthy Kyle Williams and Dareus in a 4-3 scheme would definitely open up more chances to get to the QB for the talent they do currently have.

[Coach Tuesday]

You nailed it with open passing lanes. This defense looks easier to play against than any other defense I've ever seen. It's like they're coached by a high school assistant special teams coordinator.

 

Gailey won't fire Edwards mid-season because he's too classy for that, and there is no pressure on his head to do so from ownership.

[Bob in STL]

I played the quarterback position growing up and through College, but while my height and physical talent levels kept me from going anywhere with it as a career, I always took tremendous pride in reading the defense at the line of scrimmage, so as I sit and watch NFL games, I find myself actually reading the defense more often than what the offensive set is doing, something that used to be the other way around ironically.

 

What I see from the Bills on the defensive side of the ball is disjointed it's almost alarming to see how easy it is to open passing lanes, and get to the edge as a runner, or a quick out pattern. The team seems to have all the makings of a power 4-3 despite what they have been drafting for(3-4), and I don't mean the lousy Tampa 2 step either. I mean seriously strong front 4 with plenty of depth, and Line-backing corps that seem to just fit perfectly in the power 4-3. With Wilson and Scott as competent run stoppers, and Jairus Bird showing to be very capable in the run game, I don't understand why the massive hard-on the NFL now has with the 3-4.

 

Countless times this team has left passing lanes open even I could throw through, and it's obvious now that there aren't 2 OLBs on the team that can play the edge rush, or even get to the QB on a regular basis. As much as I love Moats for his desire and energy, I don't think the guy starts on the 31 other teams in the NFL right now, I still think though that he can develop.

 

The front 4 this team could feasibly field with JUST the guys on the current roster looks incredibly solid, if not a bit scary. Here's how I see that now:

 

Position.....Players

DE...........Dwan Edwards.....Kellen Heard

DT...........Kyle Williams....Torrel Troup

DT...........Marcel Dareus

DE...........Spencer Johnson..Alex Carrington

 

And the LB corps now look much deeper like this:

 

Position.....Players

LOLB.........Andra Davis......Kelvin Sheppard......Antonio Coleman

MLB..........Nick Barnett.....Kirk Morrison......Danny Batten

ROLB.........Shawn Merriman...Arthur Moats

 

Obviously positionally some players could be moved from side to side based on performance...etc.

 

Secondary, Keep:

 

George Wilson

Jairus Bird

Terrence McGee(For now)

Aaron Williams

Da'Norris Searcy

Bryan Scott

Justin Rodgers

Joshua Nesbitt

Cut the rest.

 

As for scheme, I'd love to see Dave Wannstedt take command with this concept and make the most out of these guys, it is painfully clear these guys are just not built for the 3-4. As it stands now the Bills defense could possibly give up the most points, yards avg per game, and several other infamous measurables this year, so I think it's time to bag this colossally bad idea. The team could make a mid-season scheme change and they couldn't play any worse, seriously, I don't think it's even possible a team could play any worse on defense, and I thought last year they were atrocious defensively.

 

 

We are getting run over in either alignment. Our linebackers are not very good and we need help at DE too.

 

One of the better players this season has been Kelsay and he is on your list of cuts.

 

Kelsey gets cut and I predict he won't last very long on the waiver wire. Can't say the same for Moats, Batten, Coleman, Davis, Morrison, Merriman, and Edwards.

[2003Contenders]

While I agree with some of what you are saying, I would actually start Chris Kelsay at DE ahead of either Edwards or (especially) Johnson. He gets a lot of heat around here, but at least he has the ability to consistently provide pressure, which I believe he would be freed up to do with both Williams and Dareus on hand to command double-teams. Of course, this all depends on Williams making a full recovery. I am still a bit worried about the mysterious nature of his injury.

 

The Bills clearly need to make a move in the off-season to upgrade the OLB position, regardless of what scheme they use. I think we can pretty much forget about Merriman. If he is able to make a full recovery, then that is gravy. However, I think one of the flaws of this off-season was placing too much faith in Merriman's ability to make a return this year. Nix said repeatedly heading into the draft that they felt that they were in good shape at OLB; clearly he was counting on Merriman being a force. As for the ILB position, they will need to address that too, since Barnett is no spring chicken. I am eager to see how Shep plays down the stretch. Will he be a fixture at ILB/MLB -- or will he just be a depth guy?

 

Safety play has been exceptional. I think Wilson and Byrd form one of the best tandems in the league, and Scott provides very good depth.

 

I want to see what Aaron Williams brings to the table in these final games. I also want to see what McGee looks like from here on out to evaluate whether he still has enough left in the tank to consider keeping him. I am actually OK with Leodis for now. I know he is a favorite whipping boy around here, and his ball-playing skills are very bad at times. However, he is actually a VERY good cover corner; it's just that those big plays where he fails to come away with an INT or knock the ball down tend to be so magnified. Personally, I have seen enough from D. Florence, who either gets beat or commits a foolish penalty way too often. Bottom line is that one way or another, the team needs to acquire another CB.

 

(Slightly off-topic) Assuming that little or nothing is done in free agency, I would rank the Bills' draft needs as follows:

 

OLB (need an impact player)

WR (need a quality starter opposite Stevie; Nelson is fine in the slot)

CB (even if Aaron Williams looks great, can never have enough quality CBs)

OL (at least for depth)

QB (need a developmental QB)

TE (Chandler is OK, but depth is necessary)

DL (Again, depth. Also, need some insurance for K Williams -- and I am not liking what I see from Troup)

ILB/MLB (At least for depth; potential replacement for Barnett)

Edited November 18, 2011 by 2003Contenders

[Homey D. Clown]

We are getting run over in either alignment. Our linebackers are not very good and we need help at DE too.

 

One of the better players this season has been Kelsay and he is on your list of cuts.

 

Kelsey gets cut and I predict he won't last very long on the waiver wire. Can't say the same for Moats, Batten, Coleman, Davis, Morrison, Merriman, and Edwards.

 

 

I actually accidentally cut him, I wanted him to play blind side OLB. I also should have been more clear when I said cut the rest, when I posted that I was indending to only reference the secondary...

 

But if I cut your list, it would be quite daunting to replace all of them via draft and fee agency, since a GM for the Bills can only spend what the meddling owner is willing to cough up.

[Bob in STL]

I would not advise to cut the players in my list until we have better ones on the roster.

 

My point was Kelsey would be picked up quickly, some of the others would not.

 

I am waiting for Moats, Batten , Troup, or Carrington to develop. Not seeing much so far. Next year is year 3 for that group. It should be enough time to see if any solid starters emerge or not.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I played the quarterback position growing up and through College, but while my height and physical talent levels kept me from going anywhere with it as a career, I always took tremendous pride in reading the defense at the line of scrimmage, so as I sit and watch NFL games, I find myself actually reading the defense more often than what the offensive set is doing, something that used to be the other way around ironically.

 

What I see from the Bills on the defensive side of the ball is disjointed it's almost alarming to see how easy it is to open passing lanes, and get to the edge as a runner, or a quick out pattern. The team seems to have all the makings of a power 4-3 despite what they have been drafting for(3-4), and I don't mean the lousy Tampa 2 step either. I mean seriously strong front 4 with plenty of depth, and Line-backing corps that seem to just fit perfectly in the power 4-3. With Wilson and Scott as competent run stoppers, and Jairus Bird showing to be very capable in the run game, I don't understand why the massive hard-on the NFL now has with the 3-4.

 

Countless times this team has left passing lanes open even I could throw through, and it's obvious now that there aren't 2 OLBs on the team that can play the edge rush, or even get to the QB on a regular basis. As much as I love Moats for his desire and energy, I don't think the guy starts on the 31 other teams in the NFL right now, I still think though that he can develop.

 

The front 4 this team could feasibly field with JUST the guys on the current roster looks incredibly solid, if not a bit scary. Here's how I see that now:

 

Position.....Players

DE...........Dwan Edwards.....Kellen Heard

DT...........Kyle Williams....Torrel Troup

DT...........Marcel Dareus

DE...........Spencer Johnson..Alex Carrington

 

And the LB corps now look much deeper like this:

 

Position.....Players

LOLB.........Andra Davis......Kelvin Sheppard......Antonio Coleman

MLB..........Nick Barnett.....Kirk Morrison......Danny Batten

ROLB.........Shawn Merriman...Arthur Moats

 

Obviously positionally some players could be moved from side to side based on performance...etc.

 

Secondary, Keep:

 

George Wilson

Jairus Bird

Terrence McGee(For now)

Aaron Williams

Da'Norris Searcy

Bryan Scott

Justin Rodgers

Joshua Nesbitt

Cut the rest.

 

As for scheme, I'd love to see Dave Wannstedt take command with this concept and make the most out of these guys, it is painfully clear these guys are just not built for the 3-4. As it stands now the Bills defense could possibly give up the most points, yards avg per game, and several other infamous measurables this year, so I think it's time to bag this colossally bad idea. The team could make a mid-season scheme change and they couldn't play any worse, seriously, I don't think it's even possible a team could play any worse on defense, and I thought last year they were atrocious defensively.

 

 

Hard to argue against your thought. 3-4 only makes sense when you have an lb Corp like baltimore or Pitt.

[NoSaint]

no edge rushers in either scheme means no success.

 

we need an edge rusher. either a 43 de or a 34 OLB, I dont much care which. without that this d wont go anywhere. i do think we are closer to a 34, but are missing that critical player.

Edited November 19, 2011 by NoSaint