Bills (Ralph) desperate

[Alphadawg7]

Go ahead and make up whatever crap about me that makes you feel better, but just pointing something out here...

 

Most taxpayers pay for stuff they don't use. My kids are grown up but I still fund schools. I've never had a crime committed upon me or a house fire but I pay for police and fire protection. People who would never set foot on a bus subsidize NFTA. I don't own a boat but Erie county runs a marina, does it not?

 

The point is while the benefit is not direct, all these things add up to a quality of life people want. Being part of the NFL means having to maintain a proper sports facility. And while 95% of folks will never buy a Bills ticket, taxes and fees generated from having the Bills impacts everyone.

 

While you like to sneer at me for leaving WNY and keeping my season tickets, if it weren't for ex-pats like me the Bills might only sell 20,000 season tickets. So I feel like my support is helping WNY keep the Bills. I also posted multiple times that ticket buyers ought to directly pay for a share of RWS renovations through a surcharge on tickets. I think that is only fair.

 

I find it ironic how just two weeks ago people were up in arms over playing a home game in Toronto. Now the same people are justifying why they don't buy Bills tickets at RWS. Bitter miserable people.

 

PTR

 

I find your posts hard to take seriously. This thread is absurd. I don't buy Bills games ticket in Buffalo because I don't live in Buffalo. Does that make me any less of a fan? You do NOT have to go to games to be a "true" fan. Some fans don't like the experience of being at the games. I grew up in Nor Cal and let me tell you a lot of people do not like going to watch games at San Francisco or Oakland. A lot of people prefer to watch the games with friends at home where they can drink and be comfortable and not have to worry about driving, being around other fans, deal with traffic, absurd food prices for bad food, absurd parking prices, etc etc. I know others who LOVE going to games (like me)...its a matter of preference, but one doesn't make a person more or less of a fan and to suggest such is childish and moronic.

 

So keep your pissing and moaning going all you want, but it doesn't make you right. And FYI: Very few franchises don't have to run specials to sell out games. Most teams in all competitive sports do. A few teams like the Lakers, Steelers, Packers, etc most often don't, but that's also because they are perennial winners. When I was growing up in Nor Cal with the Niners in the Montana/Young years, there was a waiting list 5 years deep to get season tickets. When they went to the cellar of the division, it was easy. It was also hard to get tickets to games just as a fan who wanted to go to a game...but when they fell off the map, they were doing all kinds of ticket specials.

 

Add into the mix how cold it is in Buffalo, the economy, and how long it's been since we have been relevant and there's your issue. Thats the reality of winning and losing...so like I tell people who pissed and moan about the Jets talking smack...If you dont like it, PLAY BETTER.

[PromoTheRobot]

I find your posts hard to take seriously. This thread is absurd. I don't buy Bills games ticket in Buffalo because I don't live in Buffalo. Does that make me any less of a fan? You do NOT have to go to games to be a "true" fan. Some fans don't like the experience of being at the games. I grew up in Nor Cal and let me tell you a lot of people do not like going to watch games at San Francisco or Oakland. A lot of people prefer to watch the games with friends at home where they can drink and be comfortable and not have to worry about driving, being around other fans, deal with traffic, absurd food prices for bad food, absurd parking prices, etc etc. I know others who LOVE going to games (like me)...its a matter of preference, but one doesn't make a person more or less of a fan and to suggest such is childish and moronic.

 

So keep your pissing and moaning going all you want, but it doesn't make you right. And FYI: Very few franchises don't have to run specials to sell out games. Most teams in all competitive sports do. A few teams like the Lakers, Steelers, Packers, etc most often don't, but that's also because they are perennial winners. When I was growing up in Nor Cal with the Niners in the Montana/Young years, there was a waiting list 5 years deep to get season tickets. When they went to the cellar of the division, it was easy. It was also hard to get tickets to games just as a fan who wanted to go to a game...but when they fell off the map, they were doing all kinds of ticket specials.

 

Add into the mix how cold it is in Buffalo, the economy, and how long it's been since we have been relevant and there's your issue. Thats the reality of winning and losing...so like I tell people who pissed and moan about the Jets talking smack...If you dont like it, PLAY BETTER.

I don't know how you got that from my post.

 

PTR

[Alphadawg7]

I don't know how you got that from my post.

 

PTR

 

Sorry, should have clarified when I said I find it hard to take your posts seriously...I was referencing all your posts in this thread where you are basically trashing Bills fans who don't go to games. Can't reply to them all, so just replied to your latest.

[BADOLBILZ]

of course i'm correct. i essentially wrote the same story ... and was in the conference room with Jim Fink (the Biz Journal story author) interviewing Russ.

and yet, i guess that's not enough for at least one poster (not you Ray) for questioning where i got this information, as if i made it up. ... i mean, really.

Fact: The Bills have a difficult time selling out home games after Thanksgiving.

Fact: They've had more post-Thanksgiving sellouts in the past 10 years than in the 1990s.

Fact: They have about 57,000 seats left for their final three home games.

 

Add it up and it's clear: Bills fans hardly seem to be the hearty sort, they'd prefer to stay in the comfort of their own home rather than venture out to the stadium when the weather turns nasty whether the team they root for is winning or losing, hosting a playoff game or Cleveland.

 

jw

 

John, what you are missing......where you ARE wrong......is that you are comparing the fanbase of the 1990's with that of the 2000's.

 

It is NOT the same level of support. Not even close. Today the Bills could sell out games with a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 11 years that the Bills of the 90's, in the middle of a stretch of 10 playoff appearances in 12 years, COULD NOT.

 

The current Bills fan is far more inclined to support the product regardless of the record. Your insistence that fans won't show up in December even if the Bills are a legitimate contender is not based on the current fanbase.

 

I'm there every game during both periods of time and it is absolutely a different situation now. It the Bills missed the playoffs 11 straight years in the 1980's and 1990's they would be drawing no more than 20,000 in December. Season tickets? I doubt they'd have 10K.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

John, what you are missing......where you ARE wrong......is that you are comparing the fanbase of the 1990's with that of the 2000's.

 

It is NOT the same level of support. Not even close. Today the Bills could sell out games with a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 11 years that the Bills of the 90's, in the middle of a stretch of 10 playoff appearances in 12 years, COULD NOT.

 

The current Bills fan is far more inclined to support the product regardless of the record. Your insistence that fans won't show up in December even if the Bills are a legitimate contender is not based on the current fanbase.

 

I'm there every game during both periods of time and it is absolutely a different situation now. It the Bills missed the playoffs 11 straight years in the 1980's and 1990's they would be drawing no more than 20,000 in December. Season tickets? I doubt they'd have 10K.

This is interesting.

 

Why do you think that the fans now are more supportive than they were during the glory years?

 

Does it have to do with increased marketing efforts or maybe that the community doesn't take the team for granted as much as they used to?

 

Or might it be a bit of both?

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Again. The Bills are in first place at the halfway mark. So what is the excuse now?

 

PTR

 

THE WEATHER. Even in BFLO, people are wimps!

[BADOLBILZ]

Very true, haven't lived in WNY for 16 years. When I go back friends and relatives get irritated because I just want to drive around and look at stuff.

Never went to Bills games because it was hunting season.

 

Two Bills Drive is here because that's how SDS felt as well. IMO it's doubtful that someone living here locally could have put togetther and maintained such a detailed site about the Bills.

[BADOLBILZ]

This is interesting.

 

Why do you think that the fans now are more supportive than they were during the glory years?

 

Does it have to do with increased marketing efforts or maybe that the community doesn't take the team for granted as much as they used to?

 

Or might it be a bit of both?

 

First and foremost, marketing. It's amazing how far showing a little interest in the fan can go. They turned the gameday experience into an event. Bills management prior to the 1998 push to sell luxury seating/renew lease could not have cared less about the fan. John Butler was a great personnel man, but his take on ticket sales was take it or leave it. They were isolated and standoff-ish. As much as people mock Russ Brandon for his hand in the Jauron era failings on the field......the guy did wonders for the perception of the franchise. It really did used to be all about wins and losses. Are spirits down a little? Yes, and a lot of that is losing for 11 straight years. But part of it is the Bills messing with the fans in recent seasons.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

First and foremost, marketing. It's amazing how far showing a little interest in the fan can go. They turned the gameday experience into an event. Bills management prior to the 1998 push to sell luxury seating/renew lease could not have cared less about the fan. John Butler was a great personnel man, but his take on ticket sales was take it or leave it. They were isolated and standoff-ish. As much as people mock Russ Brandon for his hand in the Jauron era failings on the field......the guy did wonders for the perception of the franchise. It really did used to be all about wins and losses. Are spirits down a little? Yes, and a lot of that is losing for 11 straight years. But part of it is the Bills messing with the fans in recent seasons.

I know you're a longtime season ticket holder and thank you for that and trust your take on the situation.

 

Yes, I agree. Brandon has done a great job in that regard.

 

Polian, control freak that he was, didn't pay too much attention to non-football matters, Butler is as you described, and Donahoe did a great deal of damage to the club's relationship to its fans.

 

That said, it seems to me that the Kailbourne campaign (with a huge assist to Flutie) was a turning point in the Bills approach to marketing and their attitude towards their fans.

 

 

[Ray]

I think you are correct giving credit to Russ Brandon as he has done a great job marketing the team. It's amazing that it took so long for them to realize from Hamilton Ontario to Rochester there are 3M+ people as potential Bills' fans. That is a very large population to draw from......so they have made a much bigger effort to court those fans outside of Buffalo. I also think some of us here do buy for fear of them leaving as that always appears to be hanging over the head of the organization real or not.

But regardless, December is a horrible month climate wise and very unpredictable. Despite the folklore that we love to go to games in severe cold and wind and snow nothing could be further from the truth. If the Toronto series is going to continue I would say give them a game every December as a home game and that way hopefully the Bills only have to host one December regular season game a year.

[Offside Number 76]

This thread has gone "full TSW."

[GOBILLS78]

I wonder if this thread and the Stevie Johnson no-show thread would have gotten as much play had the Bills just beat those damn Jets.

Edited November 11, 2011 by GOBILLS78

[ExiledInIllinois]

I think you are correct giving credit to Russ Brandon as he has done a great job marketing the team. It's amazing that it took so long for them to realize from Hamilton Ontario to Rochester there are 3M+ people as potential Bills' fans. That is a very large population to draw from......so they have made a much bigger effort to court those fans outside of Buffalo. I also think some of us here do buy for fear of them leaving as that always appears to be hanging over the head of the organization real or not.

But regardless, December is a horrible month climate wise and very unpredictable. Despite the folklore that we love to go to games in severe cold and wind and snow nothing could be further from the truth. If the Toronto series is going to continue I would say give them a game every December as a home game and that way hopefully the Bills only have to host one December regular season game a year.

 

BINGO! And those 3m fans have to drive far across an iffy Niagara Frontier during 2 of the worst months of the year. Ralph knows that... Some suggest that is why he didn't like MNF in BFLO, from the large area the Bills draw from. Weather is the number one factor for the "wait and see" approach the fans take, IMO.

[BADOLBILZ]

I know you're a longtime season ticket holder and thank you for that and trust your take on the situation.

 

Yes, I agree. Brandon has done a great job in that regard.

 

Polian, control freak that he was, didn't pay too much attention to non-football matters, Butler is as you described, and Donahoe did a great deal of damage to the club's relationship to its fans.

 

That said, it seems to me that the Kailbourne campaign (with a huge assist to Flutie) was a turning point in the Bills approach to marketing and their attitude towards their fans.

 

I think 1998 was just a glimpse of things to come. It wasn't until Donahoe arrived that the organization became capable of selling snow to eskimoes. Donahoe was aggressive. He recognized what Brandon could do and gave him authority. He tried to stir up the fanbase with a major uniform change. He made the team infinitely more media accessible which was HUGE. It's easy to forget the disdain they used to treat the fans with under Polian and Butler. Yeah, he got crazy at the end and ultimately his moves on the field did not produce playoff teams, but the Bills under Donahoe became a different type of product, and that is the reason why they can still draw so well despite an unprecedented run of on-field futility.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think 1998 was just a glimpse of things to come. It wasn't until Donahoe arrived that the organization became capable of selling snow to eskimoes. Donahoe was aggressive. He recognized what Brandon could do and gave him authority. He tried to stir up the fanbase with a major uniform change. He made the team infinitely more media accessible which was HUGE. It's easy to forget the disdain they used to treat the fans with under Polian and Butler. Yeah, he got crazy at the end and ultimately his moves on the field did not produce playoff teams, but the Bills under Donahoe became a different type of product, and that is the reason why they can still draw so well despite an unprecedented run of on-field futility.

Yeah I was having difficulty reconciling Donahoe's end game meltdown (cracking down on parking lot vendors and eliminating signs calling for his ouster) with the fact that he presided over successful marketing efforts.

 

He did some good work on the marketing end, which seems kind of ironic because like Polian, he was pretty thin-skinned and seemingly a bit paranoid at times.

 

 

[Erik Flowers]

of course i'm correct. i essentially wrote the same story ... and was in the conference room with Jim Fink (the Biz Journal story author) interviewing Russ.

and yet, i guess that's not enough for at least one poster (not you Ray) for questioning where i got this information, as if i made it up. ... i mean, really.

Fact: The Bills have a difficult time selling out home games after Thanksgiving.

Fact: They've had more post-Thanksgiving sellouts in the past 10 years than in the 1990s.

Fact: They have about 57,000 seats left for their final three home games.

 

Add it up and it's clear: Bills fans hardly seem to be the hearty sort, they'd prefer to stay in the comfort of their own home rather than venture out to the stadium when the weather turns nasty whether the team they root for is winning or losing, hosting a playoff game or Cleveland.

 

jw

Stuff your pissy attitude and give me the details. Making grand statements without backing them up is clearly what you and your buddy PTR do best.

 

Rationalizing? Stating the facts aren't rationalizing. I'm sorry is stating that we beat New England rationalizing. Look at the friggin standings and tie breakers. We have only played 2 division games since we've yet to get the obligatory "beat up on Miami" game, the other 2 teams we're tied with have gotten so we have fewer division wins. If you want to keep your fingers in your ears and eyes shut, and pretend that this team is still awful so be it. And the "need to be miserable fans", you know the ones who need to find something wrong with everything, like the OP. Forget that this team is tied for first, has been competetive in all but one game, and far surpassed everyone's expectations to this point, there is always something to complain about. And I'm not saying blind allegience, but people are seriously getting upset over a ticket discount?

Care to edit your post?

[Delete This Account]

Stuff your pissy attitude and give me the details. Making grand statements without backing them up is clearly what you and your buddy PTR do best.

 

i provided you details. just because you don't agree with the facts i've laid out in this thread doesn't make them read any different.

 

let me type this slowly for you: According to attendance figures included in the media guide, the Bills have had more difficulty selling out games past Thanksgiving -- whether they've been winning or losing, whether they're in the playoffs or not, and even when it comes to hosting playoff games -- than they've had at any other time of the season through the 1990s and 2000s.

In fact, they sold out fewer games past Thanksgiving in the 1990s when the Bills were the AFC's winningest franchise, than they did this past decade that just ended, when the Bills enjoyed just one winning season.

 

jw

[PromoTheRobot]

i provided you details. just because you don't agree with the facts i've laid out in this thread doesn't make them read any different.

 

let me type this slowly for you: According to attendance figures included in the media guide, the Bills have had more difficulty selling out games past Thanksgiving -- whether they've been winning or losing, whether they're in the playoffs or not, and even when it comes to hosting playoff games -- than they've had at any other time of the season through the 1990s and 2000s.

In fact, they sold out fewer games past Thanksgiving in the 1990s when the Bills were the AFC's winningest franchise, than they did this past decade that just ended, when the Bills enjoyed just one winning season.

 

jw

Don't bother explaining it. John. They won't pay attention. After two bad Bills losses it's rutting season for the trolls.

 

PTR

[Erik Flowers]

i provided you details. just because you don't agree with the facts i've laid out in this thread doesn't make them read any different.

 

let me type this slowly for you: According to attendance figures included in the media guide, the Bills have had more difficulty selling out games past Thanksgiving -- whether they've been winning or losing, whether they're in the playoffs or not, and even when it comes to hosting playoff games -- than they've had at any other time of the season through the 1990s and 2000s.

In fact, they sold out fewer games past Thanksgiving in the 1990s when the Bills were the AFC's winningest franchise, than they did this past decade that just ended, when the Bills enjoyed just one winning season.

 

jw

Those are generalizations, not details. Which specific games didn't sell in which specific years? What was the bills' record at that time, where did they stand in the playoff race. What was the weather forecast. Provide those details, and we can perhaps draw some conclusions about why those games didn't sell out. You obviously don't care about why, you would rather cut and paste and quote yourself. So be it. But don't pretend that your cute little article explains why.

 

Comparing data from two decades ago to the last 10 years is also a difficult sell, since the ticket buying patterns of fans have changed substantially. ****, near the end of the decade of futility we have more season ticket holders than we did in the superbowl years. But don't let that get in the way of the conclusion you wrote in an article you are now recycling.

[Delete This Account]

Those are generalizations, not details. Which specific games didn't sell in which specific years? What was the bills' record at that time, where did they stand in the playoff race. What was the weather forecast. Provide those details, and we can perhaps draw some conclusions about why those games didn't sell out. You obviously don't care about why, you would rather cut and paste and quote yourself. So be it. But don't pretend that your cute little article explains why.

 

Comparing data from two decades ago to the last 10 years is also a difficult sell, since the ticket buying patterns of fans have changed substantially. ****, near the end of the decade of futility we have more season ticket holders than we did in the superbowl years. But don't let that get in the way of the conclusion you wrote in an article you are now recycling.

generalizations? they're facts.

and you're wrong with your presumptions.

 

From 1991-93, the Bills had a three-year run of 53,000 or more season-ticket holders. that included a team-best 57,132 in 1992. And yet, all those people couldn't sell out the Houston game later that season, nor the 29-23 home win over the LA Raiders the following year in the AFC divisional playoff.

maybe, there was a Sabres game that night?

 

and why should the number of season-ticket holders the team has or hasn't, affect what should have been one of the top tickets in town. in fact, Buffalo's population was significantly larger in the 1990s, then it is today. so how might that factor into your equation?

 

ok, let's try this: why aren't the final three games of this season not close to being sellouts.

the Bills were off to a surprising start, and yet there were -- prior to their loss to the Jets -- still some 57,000 seats unsold.

might it have to to do with people not wanting to sit out in the stadium when the weather turns cold.

i didn't see anyone enduring that problem through the first four games this season, three of which of those games were sellouts before the opener. of course, it wouldn't have to do anything with the weather traditionally being nicer before Thanksgiving, would it?

well, of course not, because that would be some mere generalization.

 

so tell me, oh great forecaster what the weather is going to be like on Dec. 4, Dec. 18, Dec. 24? and might that be a factor?

 

jw