wyobilzfan Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Well, Wyoming IS #1 in the country in terms of federal aid per capita receiving almost three times as much per person as the 25th ranked state of North Carolina....I can't imagine that makes effective governance more difficult. Wyo, I'm sure Wyoming is beautiful. However I sincerely doubt that the reason Wyoming has a low population is because "people in this country don't want to work." I'm positive that if the manufacturing industry, which has seen job levels (not productivity levels which are as healthy as ever) plummet in the last 20 years or so, moved all of their operations to "work-friendly" Wyoming, the employees would follow...leaving their former metropolis heavens like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, Rochester, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with a desire to work (of which I can assure you there is a healthy level of) and everything to do with the fact that Wyoming is (again, no disrespect as im sure its very awesome if youre into that sort of thing) relatively inconspicuous as a state. It's in the "middle of nowhere" with no major attractions or draw points. It likely doesnt offer the same accessibility to travel as most other population centers. These are things that matter to people. EDIT TO ADD: The biggest airport in Wyoming is in Jackson...in 2008 it saw approximately 300k enplanements at the airport. The small airports of Syracuse, Rochester and Albany NY all saw at least 3x that many in the same year. Thats ignoring Buffalo (7+ x as many) or either NY airport (one over 30x as many with the other almost 80x as many) Wyoming is for a very particular group of people. The fact is, there aren't that many of those people that exist. But that doesnt mean that Wyoming holds an "inherent work ethic" that others don't hold.....it means they have a very specific set of interests and values that Wyoming seems to cater to. For others, Silicon Valley is that place. For those, they would rather have starbucks at every corner so they can have a latte as they continue to refine and improve superconductors, helping to dramatically increase the technological capability of civilization. It seems to me to be a "to each his own" type situation....not a "they don't want to work!!!!" situation. I highly doubt that the major population centers of LA, NYC, Chicago were formed exclusively by people saying "we can move there and never work!!!!" especially when you look at cost of living in those areas. There's poverty in those areas because 1) Population outpaces jobs 2) People moved there wishing to take part in the American Dream and ultimately failed 3) The successes of a relatively small population has driven up cost of living to astronomical heights Now Larry, Most of this makes sense except you strip out the part where you consistently and conveniently leave out that since the state is over half owned by federal land, we have NO CHOICE but to count on the payroll. There are many of us who would like to see the federal govt get the hell out of the BLM, ESPECIALLY WOLF MANAGEMENT, intrusion into forcing us to buy health care insurance when the POTUS PROMISED that states could pool together to lower their costs (but no one wants us because our type of jobs have high injury rates among other things), so we are in fact UNDERSERVED. Anyone who has taken a course in Stats 101 knows you can't use that lame argument when you are talking about a population of state that has more antelope than people. We are statistical outliers, and you are smart enough to know what that means in terms of your argument that %wise we take the most federal money. That's because our population base is so low, fcol!!! So you can't have it both ways. You can't blame us for federal money being FORCED upon us (and I do mean forced). At last count, I think we had over $12B in our "rainy day fund" and we don't WANT a huge influx of population here. This may come as a shock to you, but our state govt is funding a PRIVATE study to see how we might implement our own health care plan and drop out of Medicare and Medicaid COMPLETELY. So if you read my post, then you can see that we are in agreement that there are different objectives that states have... all we want is our right to control our own tax money and if the damn government would just move out of our way, we would be very happy to turn the money back that is given to run the BLM, and all the federal entities here. We don't want a starbucks on every corner, and we don't want all the crap that comes with densely populated states. And guess what else the majority of us don't want? We don't want the govt to tell us how to deliver health care in a state whose needs are completely unrelated to more heavily populated areas. And sorry, but the "way of life" here does have more of an impact upon who stays and who goes. You don't live here, so trust me when I tell you there is a very different "work ethic" and mentality here than in other places. And I never romanticize this in any way because this place is considered a hell hole to a lot of people who have different needs and desires in terms of lifestyle. We understand that we are different, why can't you? Edited November 9, 2011 by wyobilzfan
erynthered Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Wow. I've learned more about Wyoming than I ever dreamed possible in the last few days. Where's my gun and T-shirt.
wyobilzfan Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Wow. I've learned more about Wyoming than I ever dreamed possible in the last few days. Where's my gun and T-shirt. Yea, and unfortunately for those who couldn't care less about our 'ways', it's all good. We like it that way. Let us carry our guns, leave us alone, and as long as people stay the hell out of our business, we would be more than happy to steer clear of all the sucking sounds coming from Washington DC. LOL... I can spew more useless crap about Wyoming than you will ever want to know. It's the most hilarious state I've ever lived in... out of WNY, NM, OR, MT, and wyo for almost the last 20 years. The gun and the t-shirt come when you come out here and show me that you can shoot a rattlesnake from 30 yards in the head with a pistol. Those are the harder shots. Most of the rattlesnakes I've killed are in the yard and an easy shot if I can spot them before they spot me. Fact is, they are wimpy and much prefer to run than strike. If it weren't for our dogs, I wouldn't bother killing them, but now I've developed a collection of rattles, so that's kept me shooting them. These prairie rattlers are tame compared to the big nasty's in the southeast (eastern diamondbacks).
erynthered Posted November 9, 2011 Posted November 9, 2011 Yea, and unfortunately for those who couldn't care less about our 'ways', it's all good. We like it that way. Let us carry our guns, leave us alone, and as long as people stay the hell out of our business, we would be more than happy to steer clear of all the sucking sounds coming from Washington DC. LOL... I can spew more useless crap about Wyoming than you will ever want to know. It's the most hilarious state I've ever lived in... out of WNY, NM, OR, MT, and wyo for almost the last 20 years. The gun and the t-shirt come when you come out here and show me that you can shoot a rattlesnake from 30 yards in the head with a pistol. Those are the harder shots. Most of the rattlesnakes I've killed are in the yard and an easy shot if I can spot them before they spot me. Fact is, they are wimpy and much prefer to run than strike. If it weren't for our dogs, I wouldn't bother killing them, but now I've developed a collection of rattles, so that's kept me shooting them. These prairie rattlers are tame compared to the big nasty's in the southeast (eastern diamondbacks). The gun and the T-shirt is an inside joke to a few of my Pard's around these parts. Ironicly I live in the Southeast and have taken a few of them there diamondbacks out. Your name wouldnt happen to be Martha Burke, would it? Keep up the good fight CJ.
DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Now Larry, Most of this makes sense except you strip out the part where you consistently and conveniently leave out that since the state is over half owned by federal land, we have NO CHOICE but to count on the payroll. There are many of us who would like to see the federal govt get the hell out of the BLM, ESPECIALLY WOLF MANAGEMENT, intrusion into forcing us to buy health care insurance when the POTUS PROMISED that states could pool together to lower their costs (but no one wants us because our type of jobs have high injury rates among other things), so we are in fact UNDERSERVED. Anyone who has taken a course in Stats 101 knows you can't use that lame argument when you are talking about a population of state that has more antelope than people. We are statistical outliers, and you are smart enough to know what that means in terms of your argument that %wise we take the most federal money. That's because our population base is so low, fcol!!! So you can't have it both ways. You can't blame us for federal money being FORCED upon us (and I do mean forced). At last count, I think we had over $12B in our "rainy day fund" and we don't WANT a huge influx of population here. This may come as a shock to you, but our state govt is funding a PRIVATE study to see how we might implement our own health care plan and drop out of Medicare and Medicaid COMPLETELY. So if you read my post, then you can see that we are in agreement that there are different objectives that states have... all we want is our right to control our own tax money and if the damn government would just move out of our way, we would be very happy to turn the money back that is given to run the BLM, and all the federal entities here. We don't want a starbucks on every corner, and we don't want all the crap that comes with densely populated states. And guess what else the majority of us don't want? We don't want the govt to tell us how to deliver health care in a state whose needs are completely unrelated to more heavily populated areas. And sorry, but the "way of life" here does have more of an impact upon who stays and who goes. You don't live here, so trust me when I tell you there is a very different "work ethic" and mentality here than in other places. And I never romanticize this in any way because this place is considered a hell hole to a lot of people who have different needs and desires in terms of lifestyle. We understand that we are different, why can't you? In answer to your last question....I obviously appreciate that you are different...that was kind of the entire crux of my post. But where I will not agree is your implication that Wyoming folk are "better" due to the fact that they're the "only ones who want to work!" and such. Its obviously not correct. I'm currently looking for work in NY. I live with my Aunt and Uncle. My Uncle gets up everyday at 3:30 so that he can get to work by 5am across the county. He works from 5am-5pm in an environment filled with furnaces that are thousands of degrees, melting metal and fabricating machine parts. He does this just about 7 days a week......a practice that is illegal but generally ignored, because the work has to get done. I've seen him go 25-35 days in a row....12 hour days, over and over. He comes home and immediately races outside to do yardwork for a few hours before coming in to eat dinner and hit the sack. I think he works plenty hard... I have friends who got pretty nice biglaw jobs in Chicago who work 80-90 hours a week.....I think thats working plenty hard. So I'm sorry, I can't give any credence to an idea that because someone likes the vast expanse of Wyoming and chooses to live there, that they must be a better, more willing worker than everyone else in the country. I respect the heck out of you and you know that....but that idea is craziness. As for your federal money complaints....maybe. Maybe the hold water. You're there, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Thats but a small part of what makes Wyoming solvent. I said it'd be nice to have that level of funding on a per capita basis but that doesnt mean you get more money than big states.....just more money per person. And thats the real fabric of why Wyoming is financially healthy....because it has fewer people to take care of. Maintenance isn't as demanding when its for a much much smaller number of people. The stress on resources is smaller. The stress on roads and infrastructure is less intense. There is nothing in Wyoming that compares to the stress manufactured by 2 million people living in a small area. There just isn't. And thats not a good thing or a bad thing, as we've both noted, people have different values and look for different things. But that doesnt mean that comparing the management of the second least densely populated state in the union to the management of a state that has 5 metropolitan areas more populated than the entire state of Wyoming is an apples to apples comparison. Its a different world, IMO. If there were a sudden influx of people into Wyoming....and Wyoming became one of the bubble "hot spots" that move from new city to new city in this country (Florida, to Phoenix, to Vegas, to North Carolina, to etc) Wyoming would end up just like those states. Thats just how it goes. Vast numbers of people cause vast stresses on everything. Its sad and its a challenge...but its something populous states have to deal with. Luckily for you, you guys don't.
wyobilzfan Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) In answer to your last question....I obviously appreciate that you are different...that was kind of the entire crux of my post. But where I will not agree is your implication that Wyoming folk are "better" due to the fact that they're the "only ones who want to work!" and such. Its obviously not correct. I'm currently looking for work in NY. I live with my Aunt and Uncle. My Uncle gets up everyday at 3:30 so that he can get to work by 5am across the county. He works from 5am-5pm in an environment filled with furnaces that are thousands of degrees, melting metal and fabricating machine parts. He does this just about 7 days a week......a practice that is illegal but generally ignored, because the work has to get done. I've seen him go 25-35 days in a row....12 hour days, over and over. He comes home and immediately races outside to do yardwork for a few hours before coming in to eat dinner and hit the sack. I think he works plenty hard... I have friends who got pretty nice biglaw jobs in Chicago who work 80-90 hours a week.....I think thats working plenty hard. So I'm sorry, I can't give any credence to an idea that because someone likes the vast expanse of Wyoming and chooses to live there, that they must be a better, more willing worker than everyone else in the country. I respect the heck out of you and you know that....but that idea is craziness. As for your federal money complaints....maybe. Maybe the hold water. You're there, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Thats but a small part of what makes Wyoming solvent. I said it'd be nice to have that level of funding on a per capita basis but that doesnt mean you get more money than big states.....just more money per person. And thats the real fabric of why Wyoming is financially healthy....because it has fewer people to take care of. Maintenance isn't as demanding when its for a much much smaller number of people. The stress on resources is smaller. The stress on roads and infrastructure is less intense. There is nothing in Wyoming that compares to the stress manufactured by 2 million people living in a small area. There just isn't. And thats not a good thing or a bad thing, as we've both noted, people have different values and look for different things. But that doesnt mean that comparing the management of the second least densely populated state in the union to the management of a state that has 5 metropolitan areas more populated than the entire state of Wyoming is an apples to apples comparison. Its a different world, IMO. If there were a sudden influx of people into Wyoming....and Wyoming became one of the bubble "hot spots" that move from new city to new city in this country (Florida, to Phoenix, to Vegas, to North Carolina, to etc) Wyoming would end up just like those states. Thats just how it goes. Vast numbers of people cause vast stresses on everything. Its sad and its a challenge...but its something populous states have to deal with. Luckily for you, you guys don't. Thanks for the reply, Larry. We have gone around and around about the meaning of statistical outliers on this very topic in the past. Let me be clear about one thing, I do not think Wyoming has exclusivity on a "work ethic" or that the residents here are any "better" than anywhere else. Trust me, because I do live here and have a clear understanding of the linear thinking and the blatant (and they can be) attempts at running off of not only individuals, but companies and anyone who has "ideas" that "THEY" don't approve. VERY 'redneck' in many ways. One of the things I find most frustrating about living here is the lack of cultural diversity, and the narrow-mindedness that goes along with the general way of thinking in this region. BTW, we have by our standards massive influxes of people all the time here. It's called a "boom and bust" economy for a reason. We've gone through what much of the Marcellus Shale folks and the Bakkan folks in ND are going through now with all the coal bed methane drilling and hydro-fracking. Been there, lived it, and we wrote the book on how that contentious relationship between the environmentalists and the oil and gas industry works. We probably handle "massive" influx of workers about as well or as poorly as any other place, you are right about that, for sure. I can tell you that massive influxes and exits are a way of life here. Jobs come, people come. Jobs go (or those who can't handle them), people go. It is what it is here. There are powerful people who intend to try and preserve our "Code of the West" way of life here. However, I never stated it doesn't have its drawbacks, and I certainly do not think anyone in Wyoming is a "better" or "worse" group of people that live anywhere else. I live here because it works for us. We don't want to live around masses of humanity for all the reasons you described. I don't want to live like a sardine in a can with all the infrastructure, noise, traffic, and general distance from what I consider a more natural way of life. I guess it's still a good thing that we don't have to have passports to go from state to state. Yet. LOL. Edited November 10, 2011 by wyobilzfan
DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Thanks for the reply, Larry. We have gone around and around about the meaning of statistical outliers on this very topic in the past. Let me be clear about one thing, I do not think Wyoming has exclusivity on a "work ethic" or that the residents here are any "better" than anywhere else. Trust me, because I do live here and have a clear understanding of the linear thinking and the blatant (and they can be) attempts at running off of not only individuals, but companies and anyone who has "ideas" that "THEY" don't approve. VERY 'redneck' in many ways. One of the things I find most frustrating about living here is the lack of cultural diversity, and the narrow-mindedness that goes along with the general way of thinking in this region. BTW, we have by our standards massive influxes of people all the time here. It's called a "boom and bust" economy for a reason. We've gone through what much of the Marcellus Shale folks and the Bakkan folks in ND are going through now with all the coal bed methane drilling and hydro-fracking. Been there, lived it, and we wrote the book on how that contentious relationship between the environmentalists and the oil and gas industry works. We probably handle "massive" influx of workers about as well or as poorly as any other place, you are right about that, for sure. I can tell you that massive influxes and exits are a way of life here. Jobs come, people come. Jobs go (or those who can't handle them), people go. It is what it is here. There are powerful people who intend to try and preserve our "Code of the West" way of life here. However, I never stated it doesn't have its drawbacks, and I certainly do not think anyone in Wyoming is a "better" or "worse" group of people that live anywhere else. I live here because it works for us. We don't want to live around masses of humanity for all the reasons you described. I don't want to live like a sardine in a can with all the infrastructure, noise, traffic, and general distance from what I consider a more natural way of life. I guess it's still a good thing that we don't have to have passports to go from state to state. Yet. LOL. Always a pleasure! Yeah your last paragraph is perfect. That sardine oppression is what I love. I love feeling like I'm "in" something....not in a self-affirming belonging kind of way but in a "wow theres a lot of stuff to do and see!" way. I've spent some time in rural areas and the silence is always a little unnerving for me. I like the din of society. As for the lack of cultural diversity...yeah thats sad. But some people, for one reason or another, don't value the experiences and such of other people. Everyone is confident that they're living life/making decisions in the best way....it only makes sense. IMO, its a shame to blast someone out of town because they may feel a different way or have a different take. I try to listen to everyone and every position and assess them independently. But the people that "have it all figured out" tend to be the ones that cause the most ruckus in my experience. Those are the ones that I don't get along with so well... Tolerance is great unless the thing being tolerated is inherently negative. To each their own and all that noise Enjoy the pastures missy!
IDBillzFan Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 It is what it is here. There are powerful people who intend to try and preserve our "Code of the West" way of life here. There are many places like that, but at the end of the day, what people really want to know is this: if we look up your state in the Frommer's travel guide, is there a warning to the homosexuals to stay away?
wyobilzfan Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 There are many places like that, but at the end of the day, what people really want to know is this: if we look up your state in the Frommer's travel guide, is there a warning to the homosexuals to stay away? A fair question, but today I must ask if the same thing were true of Happy Valley, PA at the moment? Wyoming (generally) DEFINITELY has a problem with the entire LGBT lifestyle and there are two camps; those like me who are more libertarian and accepting of anyone's right to life the way they wish, and those who are oppressive haters that think their way is the only way. We had/have our homophobes exposed in all their glory in the horror that was Matthew Shepard's last moments of life years ago. It is a shame and stigma we carry everywhere we go as Wyomingites. For the benefit of those who don't know me as well as some of you, I have spoken at several conferences over the years on the subject. The narrow-mindedness of how a person's lifestyle choices or the color of their skin is still far more prevalent here than I like. Some of the veterans to this board are going to experience the same confusion about how to "label" me, like some of you did back in the other political forum. I'm not an "anything"... left, right, whatever. I tend to be libertarian on social issues that pertain to lifestyle choice, and a strong fiscal conservative. But basically, I welcome the challenge to respond to the questions about gay rights/acceptance of said lifestyle in Wyoming. Been down this road many times, and my view is still the same.
IDBillzFan Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 A fair question, but today I must ask if the same thing were true of Happy Valley, PA at the moment? Wyoming (generally) DEFINITELY has a problem with the entire LGBT lifestyle and there are two camps; those like me who are more libertarian and accepting of anyone's right to life the way they wish, and those who are oppressive haters that think their way is the only way. We had/have our homophobes exposed in all their glory in the horror that was Matthew Shepard's last moments of life years ago. It is a shame and stigma we carry everywhere we go as Wyomingites. For the benefit of those who don't know me as well as some of you, I have spoken at several conferences over the years on the subject. The narrow-mindedness of how a person's lifestyle choices or the color of their skin is still far more prevalent here than I like. Some of the veterans to this board are going to experience the same confusion about how to "label" me, like some of you did back in the other political forum. I'm not an "anything"... left, right, whatever. I tend to be libertarian on social issues that pertain to lifestyle choice, and a strong fiscal conservative. But basically, I welcome the challenge to respond to the questions about gay rights/acceptance of said lifestyle in Wyoming. Been down this road many times, and my view is still the same. Note to self: my brand of sarcasm is not yet easily sensed by newcomers; must improve ability to be sarcastic or wait longer before making attempts.
LeviF Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Note to self: my brand of sarcasm is not yet easily sensed by newcomers women Fixed that for you. And you could just stop referencing yourself, ya prick. to WY Edited November 10, 2011 by LeviF91
erynthered Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 Note to self: my brand of sarcasm is not yet easily sensed by newcomers; must improve ability to be sarcastic or wait longer before making attempts. I guess you shouldnt tell her........ "Go make me lunch, B word"
wyobilzfan Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 I guess you shouldnt tell her........ "Go make me lunch, B word" You should see what happened to the last guy that told me that
Koko78 Posted November 10, 2011 Posted November 10, 2011 You should see what happened to the last guy that told me that He got lunch?
erynthered Posted November 11, 2011 Posted November 11, 2011 You should see what happened to the last guy that told me that Glad to see you have a cents of Yuma.
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