Fitzy #tebowing

[Max Fischer]

I said educate yourself, not me educate you. And I like how you assume I am a Christian. I am not. I do not question the existence of God, so I am neither agnostic nor atheist. I question the nature of God - specifically that God a. has any hand in day to day activities of mortals on Earth, or of anything that happens in the universe, at least within the context of our understanding of time, and b. that God cares what happens to us or what we do. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I don't know. I only even call him God because that is the label most familiar to the masses - I really prefer to think of God as the Source, or the Original Cause. I believe this source is a sentient and omnipotent entity, but I question whether it cares what we do. I think of existence as a computer program, and the execution of this program is what we know as the space-time continuum. God is the programmer who defined the parameters of the program before its execution was initialized, and we call these parameters physics. This is not a true belief system, because unlike dogmatic zealots, my beliefs on the matter constantly change to reflect how my own understanding evolves. Because I accept that I do not know the unequivocal truth and I never will, I also must therefore accept that no matter what, my understanding will always be flawed. And because of this, these items that I enumerated as my beliefs are merely the least logically flawed explanations that I have been able to arrive at after years of reflection upon the subject.

 

Now, even someone as narrow-minded in their understanding of Christian beliefs as you should be able to recognize that this is not the dogma of any Christian on Earth. And yes, though there are fundamental differences even among the many denominations of Christianity, the basic core dogma is the same. If you even need these core beliefs explained, it only further illustrates your ignorance of Christian belief systems. So when I call you out for ridiculing anyone for practicing their beliefs, you can be assured that I am speaking to the intolerance and bigotry that festers in your heart. Because ultimately, none of us truly knows the unequivocal truth, and therefore none of us has any right to judge the beliefs of others. That's all I'm saying.

 

Your belief system clearly stems from a few core principles: Complain often, tell people they are stupid and never admit that you are wrong.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Max Fischer

[PromoTheRobot]

500M+ refers to the word "most" you used. There are over 1B Christians in the world.

 

You didn't say fraction the first time - you said "most" => so I translated for you (>500M) to illustrate the absurdity of your claim.

 

Your speaking for them was odd at a minimum, and to be upfront - more than a little arrogant.

 

I'm not a big public prayer guy myself - but it's flat out disturbing how freaked out so many want to be about it. There are lots of NFL players who do some sort of prayer as their TD celebration, etc. and have been for decades. Why all sudden is it necessary to mock this behavior? I'm thinking it has more to do with the attitude of the people doing the mocking than the players who are doing the same praying they always have.

You are absolutely correct. Athletes have prayed publicly for decades. So what changed with Tim Tebow? Why the mockery for him and not the hundreds of players every season who gather at midfield after games? Has Tebow somehow crossed a line with his displays? Or maybe it is more a mockery of the media that makes Tebow more famous for his public prayer than his skills (or lack thereof) as a QB?

 

PTR

[eball]

You are absolutely correct. Athletes have prayed publicly for decades. So what changed with Tim Tebow? Why the mockery for him and not the hundreds of players every season who gather at midfield after games? Has Tebow somehow crossed a line with his displays? Or maybe it is more a mockery of the media that makes Tebow more famous for his public prayer than his skills (or lack thereof) as a QB?

 

PTR

I don't think so. I seem to recall this phenomenon really starting to take hold in the 2000s; I certainly don't remember it in the 80s or 90s.

 

I honestly think it's a PR move. Show the world of agents and potential marketing partners what a good guy you are because you're expressing your "faith."

 

Sort of similar to prisoners who suddenly "find God" while locked away. PR in a different sense, but the same idea.

 

EDIT: I'm willing to admit some athletes (i.e., Tebow) are genuine in their actions; I just think that number is in the minority.

Edited November 1, 2011 by eball

[pkwwjd]

Matthew 6:6

 

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

 

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their public displays of religiosity.

The condemnation that Jesus had for the Pharisees was much deeper than the fact that they prayed in public. Public prayer was not the issue. It had to do with the fact that the Pharisees primarily practiced their religion when others were watching as a show (what some accuse the athletes of doing). If Jesus was against public displays of faith ... He would have done things very differently Himself. Most of His miracles are recorded as happening in a public setting. There are also recorded prayers of Jesus that were definitely public expressions.

[K-9]

I don't think so. I seem to recall this phenomenon really starting to take hold in the 2000s; I certainly don't remember it in the 80s or 90s.

 

I honestly think it's a PR move. Show the world of agents and potential marketing partners what a good guy you are because you're expressing your "faith."

 

Sort of similar to prisoners who suddenly "find God" while locked away. PR in a different sense, but the same idea.

 

EDIT: I'm willing to admit some athletes (i.e., Tebow) are genuine in their actions; I just think that number is in the minority.

 

eball, in the 80s and 90s players were having full-fledged group prayer sessions on the field after the games. It was common to see a couple dozen guys, from both teams, gather on the field, kneel, hold hands, and pray. What's changed, IMO, is the media's obsession over it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BuffaloBob]

The problem with your view is that to properly believe in Jesus for salvation (which you seem to 'give permission' to others to do) ... It includes not keeping one's faith to one's self. Someone has to risk stepping on the cultural toes of others ... As a believer, I'm happy to assume that risk.

Of course, how else are you going to recruit more members to the cult? Predicate salvation on recruiting other members. Kind of like when you get two free months from the gym if you recruit your friends and family.

[Dr. K]

The condemnation that Jesus had for the Pharisees was much deeper than the fact that they prayed in public. Public prayer was not the issue. It had to do with the fact that the Pharisees primarily practiced their religion when others were watching as a show (what some accuse the athletes of doing). If Jesus was against public displays of faith ... He would have done things very differently Himself. Most of His miracles are recorded as happening in a public setting. There are also recorded prayers of Jesus that were definitely public expressions.

 

The Pharisees were the "fundamentalists" of Judaism at the time; they saw the temple priests as corrupt and wanted the religion to get back to the purity of the past. Jesus, the Jew, saw the most vocal and public of them as hypocrites.

 

We're undoubtedly going to never agree about this (and it probably doesn't belong on this page), but I see most public politicians and TV preachers as Pharisees. I don't know what's in Tim Tebow's heart, but on the field he's a football player, not a preacher. He can be a Christian football player (when I played basketball in high school in West Seneca, guys would cross themselves before shooting free throws) but I wish he would pray in his closet, as Jesus suggested.

[snamsnoops]

Preach on, brother.

 

Not to start a hate fest, but it always seems OK to have open season on Christians. You have one little show of reverence or say one thing about Christ having an impact in your life and all of a sudden you are labeled a Jesus Freak or whatever. I like Tebow even more because of his devotion to his God.

 

He also luvs man meat! U probably like him even more now,,,, don't u!

[Dibs]

eball, in the 80s and 90s players were having full-fledged group prayer sessions on the field after the games. It was common to see a couple dozen guys, from both teams, gather on the field, kneel, hold hands, and pray. What's changed, IMO, is the media's obsession over it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I think this comes down to people who put God first and their own Ego second.

 

A group prayer after a game seems totally in context. Thanking God for the opportunities, being healthy and uninjured, being sorry for playing on the day of rest, for those that were injured etc, etc....irrelevant to if they have won or lost....this shows a respect and thankfulness to God.

 

To bend the knee after a fortuitous event(scoring a TD) is out of context to the norm, therefore will minimally have eyebrows raised.

Fortuitous events happen to people all the time and they don't instantly kneel down and pray....who does that? Would even a minister instantly drop to his knees in the supermarket to thank God after he's just heard word of a big donation to fix the roof of the Church?

 

In regards to PTRs earlier hunch that most Christians would be offended by it....I don't know about most but I'm a Christian and it offends me to see people apparently putting Ego ahead of God.

 

Just my uneducated views.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Dibs

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Not really. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all inherently intolerant. They only rise above barbarism when you selectively follow their teachings.

 

Please do not confuse the doctrines of the faiths with the behaviors of those who practice them. I will agree that they are inherently intolerant. But none of these faiths are inherently barbaric.

 

Your belief system clearly stems from a few core principles: Complain often, tell people they are stupid and never admit that you are wrong.

 

I'm guessing that, ironically, you do not realize the difference between ignorance and stupidity.

Edited November 2, 2011 by SouthGeorgiaBillsFan

[Orlando Bills Fan]

So "tebowing" means praying on the field? Shouldn't is mean to complete less than 50% of something? Or possibly mean to put someone in a situation they are unqualified for and stand little chance of success?

 

As in, "I was sick and couldn't study, so i'm going to be tebowing this test today." or perhaps, "Man, the bosses are really tebowing this company by putting the accounting guy in charge of the production line."

 

Hike! Love it, even though I'm a big Gator fan and Tebow supporter!

 

Byron Leftwhich says Tebow has a slow delivery!

 

And seriously?

 

Why is it that every time Tebow comes up, a complete thread has to be dedicated to religion?

 

I SO wish Tebow would just do a sex video with Kim Kardashian or something so that people can MOVE ON from this topic! Seriously...if Ryan Fitzpatrick throws for 300 yards a game, he can set up a shrine on the 50 yard line to Jesus, Allah, Jobu...I don't CARE!

[BillsBiker]

this is the worst thread i ever started

 

this is the worst thread i ever started

 

I agree

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

Matthew 6:6

 

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

 

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their public displays of religiosity.

 

Your point is not a bad one, but I think you have stepped outside of the context of that particular passage in order to make it. The Pharisees were using their perceived piety as justification for their subjugation of the masses. Clearly Tebow's public displays are a completely different situation.

 

On a side note: perhaps I am getting a bit too deep for the context of this thread and/or this forum.

Edited November 2, 2011 by SouthGeorgiaBillsFan

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I think this comes down to people who put God first and their own Ego second.

 

A group prayer after a game seems totally in context. Thanking God for the opportunities, being healthy and uninjured, being sorry for playing on the day of rest, for those that were injured etc, etc....irrelevant to if they have won or lost....this shows a respect and thankfulness to God.

 

To bend the knee after a fortuitous event(scoring a TD) is out of context to the norm, therefore will minimally have eyebrows raised.

Fortuitous events happen to people all the time and they don't instantly kneel down and pray....who does that? Would even a minister instantly drop to his knees in the supermarket to thank God after he's just heard word of a big donation to fix the roof of the Church?

 

In regards to PTRs earlier hunch that most Christians would be offended by it....I don't know about most but I'm a Christian and it offends me to see people apparently putting Ego ahead of God.

 

Just my uneducated views.

 

It is not uncommon at all for people to give thanks to God after a fortuitous event. I mean hell, even non religious people thank God on a daily basis for mundane blessings, such as supper. And they do so even in the most public of forums. I mean the whole damn country sang endless songs of praise, thanking God for our country and our freedom ad nauseum following the events on 9/11/2001. I'm not really sure why you interpret Tim Tebow's prayer as an act of ego rather than a genuine act of thanks, but either way, anyone other than Tim Tebow's interpretation of his actions is purely subjective and at best is speculation. Therefore, if you don't like it, sit in your room and brood over it all you want, but really nobody is justified to criticize him for it. And it isn't just Tim Tebow - this logic holds true for anyone who publicly thanks God for any blessing. Tim Tebow's prayers simply are the context of this thread.

[Dibs]

It is not uncommon at all for people to give thanks to God after a fortuitous event. I mean hell, even non religious people thank God on a daily basis for mundane blessings, such as supper. And they do so even in the most public of forums. I mean the whole damn country sang endless songs of praise, thanking God for our country and our freedom ad nauseum following the events on 9/11/2001. I'm not really sure why you interpret Tim Tebow's prayer as an act of ego rather than a genuine act of thanks, but either way, anyone other than Tim Tebow's interpretation of his actions is purely subjective and at best is speculation. Therefore, if you don't like it, sit in your room and brood over it all you want, but really nobody is justified to criticize him for it. And it isn't just Tim Tebow - this logic holds true for anyone who publicly thanks God for any blessing. Tim Tebow's prayers simply are the context of this thread.

 

I think you totally misinterpret what I have said. I make no reference to Tebow at all. I have never even seen him play. My comments are directed at the players who drop to their knees to pray after a fortuitous occurrence on the field(scoring TD).

 

As I have previously said, praying in an organized or structured medium is totally acceptable.

To exclaim thanks to God in the height of elation at a fortuitous occurrence is totally acceptable.

 

To drop to ones knees and make a public display of praying when having a fortuitous occurrence happen is....strange. I have never ever heard of this happening in normal walks of life. Do any fans drop to their knees and thank God when a TD is scored? Do ministers drop to their knees on the street after hearing good news on the phone? Do any accountants drop to their knees and thank God after they successfully balanced the books?

 

Again....if a player drops to their knees and prays whenever they have something fortuitous occur, whether it be on the field or off the field on the streets....I have no problem at all with that as that is how they chose to worship.

If a player only drops to their knees on the field after a fortuitous occurrence.....then that smacks of Ego. It is all about the out of place 'performance' of thanking God that raises eyebrows.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Dibs

[Dr. K]

I think you totally misinterpret what I have said. I make no reference to Tebow at all. I have never even seen him play. My comments are directed at the players who drop to their knees to pray after a fortuitous occurrence on the field(scoring TD).

 

As I have previously said, praying in an organized or structured medium is totally acceptable.

To exclaim thanks to God in the height of elation at a fortuitous occurrence is totally acceptable.

 

To drop to ones knees and make a public display of praying when having a fortuitous occurrence happen is....strange. I have never ever heard of this happening in normal walks of life. Do any fans drop to their knees and thank God when a TD is scored? Do ministers drop to their knees on the street after hearing good news on the phone? Do any accountants drop to their knees and thank God after they successfully balanced the books?

 

Again....if a player drops to their knees and prays whenever they have something fortuitous occur, whether it be on the field or off the field on the streets....I have no problem at all with that as that is how they chose to worship.

If a player only drops to their knees on the field after a fortuitous occurrence.....then that smacks of Ego. It is all about the out of place 'performance' of thanking God that raises eyebrows.

 

I agree. A simple way to cut through the distractions on this is to ask the question, "Who is the audience for this display of piety?" Is the prayer simply a prayer, or is it in some part, to a greater or lesser degree, a performance?

 

For the Pharisee, the display is the object--his prayer is in public because he WANTS others (people who don't believe as he does) to see it and be chastened. The audience isn't God, the audience is human beings he wants to influence.

 

That's, I think, why Jesus admonished people to pray in private, so they would not get a communication with God confused with a performance for other people.

 

In that context, who does Tebow think he is performing for when he prays on field? (I've never seen him play, so I am taking others' word for it that he does this)

 

I guess some Christians think that God wants this performance (it's "testifying") but I'm not sure Jesus would agree. But I think a lot of things Christians do in his name would appall Jesus, and since I'm not a Christian of that sort, my opinion is probably out of bounds.