Root Cause Thread

[OCinBuffalo]

1. Health care COSTS(forget insurance premiums, that is effect), are going up. If you don't understand that health care costs are the cause, and rising premiums are the effect of that, then GTFO out of my thread....unless you can prove that insurance is in fact contributing to health care COST*. That would actually be interesting. In any event, what are the root causes for the heath care costs increasing? (*Sorry about the disclaimer, but we have to account for the idiots)

 

2. Tuition COSTS, NOT student loan interest, are going up. What are the root causes of this? It would also be interesting if somebody could make the case for a cause/effect flip on this one.

 

It seems to me that its a waste of time to talk in terms of Political Solution A or B that deals with managing the effects, if we haven't put any serious thought into dealing with the cause. Never mind about the symptoms, what about the disease? And, are there any insights into the treatments of the "symptoms" actually contributing to the "disease" of these abnormally rising costs?

 

I'm just saying: there's no way in hell my parent's student loans were anywhere near the same debt commitment, $ for $, as what kids are being asked to deal with now. And, there's no way Medicare was outlaying cash for their parents the way it is now. This is out of hand, and a reasonable 18 year old has a reasonable B word about incurring 100k in debt before they even buy a house.

 

What's it going to be like 10 years from now? Why aren't we killing the disease? Or, how many limbs are we going to hack off to save the body?

[ieatcrayonz]

1. Health care COSTS(forget insurance premiums, that is effect), are going up. If you don't understand that health care costs are the cause, and rising premiums are the effect of that, then GTFO out of my thread....unless you can prove that insurance is in fact contributing to health care COST*. That would actually be interesting. In any event, what are the root causes for the heath care costs increasing? (*Sorry about the disclaimer, but we have to account for the idiots)

 

2. Tuition COSTS, NOT student loan interest, are going up. What are the root causes of this? It would also be interesting if somebody could make the case for a cause/effect flip on this one.

 

It seems to me that its a waste of time to talk in terms of Political Solution A or B that deals with managing the effects, if we haven't put any serious thought into dealing with the cause. Never mind about the symptoms, what about the disease? And, are there any insights into the treatments of the "symptoms" actually contributing to the "disease" of these abnormally rising costs?

 

I'm just saying: there's no way in hell my parent's student loans were anywhere near the same debt commitment, $ for $, as what kids are being asked to deal with now. And, there's no way Medicare was outlaying cash for their parents the way it is now. This is out of hand, and a reasonable 18 year old has a reasonable B word about incurring 100k in debt before they even buy a house.

 

What's it going to be like 10 years from now? Why aren't we killing the disease? Or, how many limbs are we going to hack off to save the body?

1. Hippies that want to live forever. They have whined their whole lives and now they want miracle medicines. Drugs companies have expended the considerable effort it must have taken to create these drugs; it cost a lot, and hippies want it free. Surprise surprise.

 

2. Hippies who can't get real jobs have been able to glom on to their hippy friends in academia for jobs. Now they want the big $$$$$ despite producing nothing. These costs must be passed along to someone.

 

 

To summarize: Hippies. Also known as "The smelliest generation".

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

People not caring how much these services cost because they use government entitlements to pay for them

 

Actually upon thinking more the root cause IMO is liberals bribing us for votes with our own money creating this situation

Edited October 30, 2011 by drinkTHEkoolaid

[Rob's House]

Tuition keeps going up because availability of money to fund it keeps going up. Government grants, subsidies, and guarantees on student loans make the money available and therefore the schools can charge that. It's not terribly different from the way creative interest only mortgages made obscene amounts of money available to people to buy houses they couldn't afford -> prices skyrocketed.

 

It's interesting to me that the government (particularly Democrats) hold sacred an industry that preys upon naive teenagers by conning them into signing up for monumental debt burdens on the implied promise that just having some miscellaneous degree with no marketable skills is not only a good idea, it's a great idea.

 

For however irresponsible bankers were in lending to insolvent home buyers, how responsible is it to sign an 18 year old up for a $60k+ commitment without first evaluating the viablility of that students projected career path?

[uncle flap]

Tuition keeps going up because availability of money to fund it keeps going up. Government grants, subsidies, and guarantees on student loans make the money available and therefore the schools can charge that. It's not terribly different from the way creative interest only mortgages made obscene amounts of money available to people to buy houses they couldn't afford -> prices skyrocketed.

 

It's interesting to me that the government (particularly Democrats) hold sacred an industry that preys upon naive teenagers by conning them into signing up for monumental debt burdens on the implied promise that just having some miscellaneous degree with no marketable skills is not only a good idea, it's a great idea.

 

For however irresponsible bankers were in lending to insolvent home buyers, how responsible is it to sign an 18 year old up for a $60k+ commitment without first evaluating the viablility of that students projected career path?

 

right on. i think there needs to be a paradigm shift. now, everyone thinks they key to a good life is college. but all that debt is a major setback. college shouldnt seem mandatory. if you cant afford college, dont go.

 

and as far as health care goes, costs rise because people are willing to pay the price. i mean upper middle class and above. any below it doesnt matter because they arent paying directly. med tech and pharmaceuticals continue to develop new drugs and tech because they know theres money to be made there, not out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

simple (tongue-in-cheek) solution: STOP SPENDING MONEY YOU DONT HAVE ON THINGS YOU THINK YOU - BUT DONT ACTUALLY - NEED

 

solution part two: banks and other lenders - STOP GIVING PEOPLE MONEY THEY WILL LIKELY NEVER BE ABLE TO PAY BACK

[Gary M]

Tuition keeps going up because availability of money to fund it keeps going up. Government grants, subsidies, and guarantees on student loans make the money available and therefore the schools can charge that. It's not terribly different from the way creative interest only mortgages made obscene amounts of money available to people to buy houses they couldn't afford -> prices skyrocketed.

 

It's interesting to me that the government (particularly Democrats) hold sacred an industry that preys upon naive teenagers by conning them into signing up for monumental debt burdens on the implied promise that just having some miscellaneous degree with no marketable skills is not only a good idea, it's a great idea.

 

For however irresponsible bankers were in lending to insolvent home buyers, how responsible is it to sign an 18 year old up for a $60k+ commitment without first evaluating the viablility of that students projected career path?

What I find the most disturbing is that they have convinced a generation that they are required to pay for their child's college education. I know some people who have used their 401(k) to pay for it.

 

I understand them wanting the parents to contribute, but to borrow against their 401(k) or remortgage the house is just crazy.

[TPS]

Boy, this is certainly a straw man if I've ever seen one....Why not just say it's government? Unfortunately too many ideologues will focus on "liberal" government, when it's government that enables an industry because that industry pays government to keep their coffers filled. Both sides of the aisle are captive to vested interests.

 

In what may surprise many, I agree with the overall sentiment that government enables this to happen, but they do so to support an industry, not for the benevolence of those who use the programs.

 

1. Student Loans. Since the majority are financed through the private sector and guaranteed by the government--who wins? It's just like housing. If students default, the government will come in and bailout the banks.

More to the question on root cause. Two things have changed dramatically: states have reduced support for higher ed (HE) dramatically; and higher ed has drifted away from its core business. The state subsidy has decreased and those costs have been pushed on to students; and HE administrators pay themselves like private sector managers and funnel money to pet projects (Ever wonder why Jack Quinn was appointed president of ECC?).

 

The dramatic increase in student loan debt perpetuates the inefficiencies, pads the profits of banks, and creates implicit liabilities for the government (the guarantees). So who's to blame? No one and everyone. As is typical, we've created a system where all parties benefit (except for the graduate). Btw, this isn't just in public HE, as private colleges receive government subsidies too.

 

I won't offer a list of solutions here (I do have some), but I do want to respond to something Rob said. A strong liberal arts education IS valuable because it creates broader, critical-thinking individuals. And Businesses DO want people with applied skills who can think critically and communicate. You hire an accountant from Bryant & Stratton, you hire a manager from a HE institution that includes a strong liberal arts background along with an accounting degree (a solution is to make sure students get both applied and liberal arts skills).

 

2. Healthcare. Do you think the health industry wants to change things? It's the same process. Government provides a spending stream that goes right into private sector coffers. Rising medical costs are supported by a system that continues to shell out to meet those costs. Is it a liberal democrat issue? Who the Hell increased Medicare--Bushjr!!

 

I've said this often, but not recently: government is a redistribution mechanism that influences a flow of $5 trillion/year--it's a BIG BUSINESS, which is why big business pays to influence that flow. Which brings up that question about wealth creation: does anyone get rich without sucking off the government's teat? Every business wants a piece of that action.

 

Cheers.

[DrFishfinder]

1. Hippies that want to live forever. They have whined their whole lives and now they want miracle medicines. Drugs companies have expended the considerable effort it must have taken to create these drugs; it cost a lot, and hippies want it free. Surprise surprise.

 

2. Hippies who can't get real jobs have been able to glom on to their hippy friends in academia for jobs. Now they want the big $$$ despite producing nothing. These costs must be passed along to someone.

 

 

To summarize: Hippies. Also known as "The smelliest generation".

 

Hippies?

 

The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers are behind this?

[Dave_In_Norfolk]

When I broke two ligaments in my knee I had it surgically repaired. I talked to an old timer who had the same problem way back in 1941. They had put him in the hospital for three days and then told him to go home. Guess whose was cheaper? extrapolate over the entire health care industry and you see a part of the "problem"

[DC Tom]

When I broke two ligaments in my knee I had it surgically repaired. I talked to an old timer who had the same problem way back in 1941. They had put him in the hospital for three days and then told him to go home. Guess whose was cheaper?

 

Probably yours. Veterinarians don't charge all that much. But you make up the difference with your mental health expenses, no doubt.

 

I fractured my cubiod bone and tore a ligament in my foot. Didn't get it treated. Guess whose was cheaper?

[Dave_In_Norfolk]

Probably yours. Veterinarians don't charge all that much. But you make up the difference with your mental health expenses, no doubt.

 

I fractured my cubiod bone and tore a ligament in my foot. Didn't get it treated. Guess whose was cheaper?

My mental health expenses??? You go Tom!

[DC Tom]

My mental health expenses??? You go Tom!

 

You mean you're not in an outpatient program?

 

That's just !@#$ing scary.

[Dave_In_Norfolk]

You mean you're not in an outpatient program?

 

That's just !@#$ing scary.

You are not scary at all, message board heroes are harmless

[ieatcrayonz]

When I broke two ligaments in my knee I had it surgically repaired. I talked to an old timer who had the same problem way back in 1941. They had put him in the hospital for three days and then told him to go home. Guess whose was cheaper? extrapolate over the entire health care industry and you see a part of the "problem"

I doubt they even knew what to do with a broken ligament in 1941. Did they tell you if yours was the first broken ligament they had seen since?

[birdog1960]

Boy, this is certainly a straw man if I've ever seen one....Why not just say it's government? Unfortunately too many ideologues will focus on "liberal" government, when it's government that enables an industry because that industry pays government to keep their coffers filled. Both sides of the aisle are captive to vested interests.

 

In what may surprise many, I agree with the overall sentiment that government enables this to happen, but they do so to support an industry, not for the benevolence of those who use the programs.

 

1. Student Loans. Since the majority are financed through the private sector and guaranteed by the government--who wins? It's just like housing. If students default, the government will come in and bailout the banks.

More to the question on root cause. Two things have changed dramatically: states have reduced support for higher ed (HE) dramatically; and higher ed has drifted away from its core business. The state subsidy has decreased and those costs have been pushed on to students; and HE administrators pay themselves like private sector managers and funnel money to pet projects (Ever wonder why Jack Quinn was appointed president of ECC?).

 

The dramatic increase in student loan debt perpetuates the inefficiencies, pads the profits of banks, and creates implicit liabilities for the government (the guarantees). So who's to blame? No one and everyone. As is typical, we've created a system where all parties benefit (except for the graduate). Btw, this isn't just in public HE, as private colleges receive government subsidies too.

 

I won't offer a list of solutions here (I do have some), but I do want to respond to something Rob said. A strong liberal arts education IS valuable because it creates broader, critical-thinking individuals. And Businesses DO want people with applied skills who can think critically and communicate. You hire an accountant from Bryant & Stratton, you hire a manager from a HE institution that includes a strong liberal arts background along with an accounting degree (a solution is to make sure students get both applied and liberal arts skills).

 

2. Healthcare. Do you think the health industry wants to change things? It's the same process. Government provides a spending stream that goes right into private sector coffers. Rising medical costs are supported by a system that continues to shell out to meet those costs. Is it a liberal democrat issue? Who the Hell increased Medicare--Bushjr!!

 

I've said this often, but not recently: government is a redistribution mechanism that influences a flow of $5 trillion/year--it's a BIG BUSINESS, which is why big business pays to influence that flow. Which brings up that question about wealth creation: does anyone get rich without sucking off the government's teat? Every business wants a piece of that action.

 

Cheers.

 

 

nailed it! nice job. in the case of healthcare, the big bucks are spent at the hospitals and guess who has the strongest lobby within medicine? ever wonder why the specialist/primary care ratio is so skewed in this country comparede to virtually every other place on the planet? specialty care makes hospitals money via operating rooms and diagnostic tests and procedures. these, of course, also add cost to the patient and insurers. primary care, not so much. diagnosing and treating in an office setting is cheap with little profit margin. of course, the baby boomers vainglorious quest for immortality (and most are NOT hippies) does play a role as well.

Edited November 2, 2011 by birdog1960

[3rdnlng]

When I broke two ligaments in my knee I had it surgically repaired. I talked to an old timer who had the same problem way back in 1941. They had put him in the hospital for three days and then told him to go home. Guess whose was cheaper? extrapolate over the entire health care industry and you see a part of the "problem"

 

Were they clean breaks or just splintered? Hard cast or soft cast? Endogamous caste? Tell us more about the procedure to repair your broken ligaments.

[TPS]

nailed it! nice job. in the case of healthcare, the big bucks are spent at the hospitals and guess who has the strongest lobby within medicine? ever wonder why the specialist/primary care ratio is so skewed in this country comparede to virtually every other place on the planet? specialty care makes hospitals money via operating rooms and diagnostic tests and procedures. these, of course, also add cost to the patient and insurers. primary care, not so much. diagnosing and treating in an office setting is cheap with little profit margin. of course, the baby boomers vainglorious quest for immortality (and most are NOT hippies) does play a role as well.

Which is why you find so much corruption associated with healthcare/Medicare, the military-industrial complex/defense spending, and the congressional whores who get wealthy as the middlemen--with that kind of money up for grabs, it's "only natural...."

[GG]

Which is why you find so much corruption associated with healthcare/Medicare, the military-industrial complex/defense spending, and the congressional whores who get wealthy as the middlemen--with that kind of money up for grabs, it's "only natural...."

 

So naturally, the best way to fix it is to nationalize healthcare.

[TPS]

So naturally, the best way to fix it is to nationalize healthcare.

I really don't know the "best way to fix it." Do you mean healthcare or insurance? I think the debate has been about providing national insurance as an alternative. Again, though, I don't have a solution here.

[Magox]

I really don't know the "best way to fix it." Do you mean healthcare or insurance? I think the debate has been about providing national insurance as an alternative. Again, though, I don't have a solution here.

I do, it's called effective wellness programs. People begin to live healthier, health costs will go down. End of story