Way to Go Tom Donahoe!

[ROCCEO]

he was a nice pick but you can't give Tom all the credit.  Mcgee wasn't drafted for his Kick returning.  Bobby April found the Special Teams diamond.  The credit goes to Bobby April and Mcgee for putting in the time and making it work.

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Incorrect, McGee was likely drafted for both reasons. He just didn't get many looks as a returner last year. McGee was among the most highly touted return men coming out of college.

[Bill from NYC]

Agreed, what a tremendous selection!

The draft interests me more and more these days, and picks like this are the reason why. Mr. Butler impressed me with Cowart, Holecek (round 5) and Covington. All of them would have been great imo if not for the injuries.

Also, what was Ron Edwards, a 7th rounder?

 

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how Pat Williams was not drafted.

[Kelly the Dog]

No one probably remembers this, but shortly after the 2003 draft, I posted the details of a conversation I had with Terrence's college coach from his first two seasons at Northwestern St. Granted, he retired from coaching (and became an athletic director at another school) and so he didn't get to coach him during his prime collegiate years. But he did recruit him and still followed the Northwestern team closely through his friendships with the Northwestern staff. He told me that he thought he could develop into a decent NFL corner, but he said where he would really help the Bills would be as a kick returner.

After that kickoff return to start the Miami game, I got a call from Terrence's first college coach, telling me "I told you."

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Cool. I wonder if that coach had him his sophomore season (wondering if there was a red shirt year somewhere in the coaches "two seasons") because that was the year he was an awesome return man.

[Ralonzo]

Also, what was Ron Edwards, a 7th rounder?

 

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how Pat Williams was not drafted.

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Edwards was a 3rd rounder.

 

Pat Williams? Heck if I know. I remember the first time I saw him in a preseason game and he was unblockable... but didn't hardly play that year. The next preseason, he was unblockable, and actually got into a game or two. The next preseason, he was still unblockable, and we finally unleashed the twin terrors (Washington and Williams) as the jumbo package on opening day.

 

The performance of the Ravens Kelly Gregg in that preseason beating we laid on them was the closest I've seen since to the disruptive force that was Pat Williams in those early years when we were married to the 3-4 and Ted was the NT and that was that. Pat was wasted on the bench for at least a couple years, that's the only reason we can afford him now.

[jarthur31]

he was a nice pick but you can't give Tom all the credit.  Mcgee wasn't drafted for his Kick returning.  Bobby April found the Special Teams diamond.  The credit goes to Bobby April and Mcgee for putting in the time and making it work.

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April wasn't working here last year.

[Spiderweb]

he was a nice pick but you can't give Tom all the credit.  Mcgee wasn't drafted for his Kick returning.  Bobby April found the Special Teams diamond.  The credit goes to Bobby April and Mcgee for putting in the time and making it work.

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Ah, excuse me, but I do recall seeing McGee return some kicks last year. Also, if I'm

not mistaken, he was also noted as a very good return man coming out of college.

 

Not to take anything away from April, but McGee was "found" before he came aboard the ship. What I want to know is why the GW & staff stick with Antonio Brown as long as they did?

[Toledo Bill]

I now join in the accolades for Donahoe, but I am amazed at the amount of "I told you so" type posts. I was very, very down on him through last year and after an o and 4 start posted as such. I am curious how many people (and I am not pointing fingers) supported him through last year and up until recently. If you thought he was wonderful all this time, great... keep posting about how wrong everyone else was. But I find it hard to believe that everyone making the condensending comments didn't question his abilities at one time.

I am very pleased that he is in charge of our team, but feel anyone that questioned him was right to doubt him through the Williams fiasco... which ultimately hurt our team for years.

[todd]

I've been saying he's been very good since he got here. Just ask Steven in MD.

 

I now join in the accolades for Donahoe, but I am amazed at the amount of "I told you so" type posts. I was very, very down on him through last year and after an o and 4 start  posted as such. I am curious how many people (and I am not pointing fingers) supported him through last year and up until recently. If you thought he was wonderful all this time, great... keep posting about how wrong everyone else was. But I find it hard to believe that everyone making the condensending comments didn't question his abilities at one time.

I am very pleased that he is in charge of our team, but feel anyone that questioned him was right to doubt him through the Williams fiasco... which ultimately hurt our team for years.

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[Toledo Bill]

I've been saying he's been very good since he got here. Just ask Steven in MD.

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I don't doubt it. But I do doubt that all of these posters did the same.

Thanks.

[Indy Dave]

I now join in the accolades for Donahoe, but I am amazed at the amount of "I told you so" type posts. I was very, very down on him through last year and after an o and 4 start  posted as such. I am curious how many people (and I am not pointing fingers) supported him through last year and up until recently. If you thought he was wonderful all this time, great... keep posting about how wrong everyone else was. But I find it hard to believe that everyone making the condensending comments didn't question his abilities at one time.

I am very pleased that he is in charge of our team, but feel anyone that questioned him was right to doubt him through the Williams fiasco... which ultimately hurt our team for years.

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Count me as one of the people who was down -- way down -- on Tom. I'm still not running for president of his fan club, but you can't argue against the progress this team has made, and he deserves some of the credit for that.

That's one thing about this message board. Some people criticize Tom. Some criticize Drew. Some criticize Travis. And so on. But I think just about every Bills fans on this board would rather be wrong than right...correct? I mean, Bill in NYC doesn't want Travis to fail. He is a big critic of TH, but I assume Bill would rather Travis prove him wrong than prove him right. The worst fan is the one who criticizes a player and then hopes he fails so he can say, "I told you so."

[Yoho]

What I posted on October 5

 

My vote is for Tom Donohoe. He has done a good job of assembling talent. He has a good coaching staff and we have been competitive in every game and may be ready to turn things around.

 

All of you who are ready to panic, throw out everything we have built and start over again must not have been around from 1967 to 1984 where we did that over and over and over again to no success. Most of you have a Danny Snyder attitude. The fact that most of you are ready to throw it all away without any consideration of reasonable alternatives says it all.

 

Man, I hope the Bills turn it around so you fair weather supporters can eat your words.

[Indy Dave]

Cool. I wonder if that coach had him his sophomore season (wondering if there was a red shirt year somewhere in the coaches "two seasons") because that was the year he was an awesome return man.

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No, I think there was a redshirt season, so in 2000 (when Terrence emerged), Coach Goodwin had retired. In '99, Northwestern had an established guy named Tony Taylor returning kicks. Taylor caught on with the Bucs, I think.

[Toledo Bill]

Count me as one of the people who was down  --  way down  --  on Tom. I'm still not running for president of his fan club, but you can't argue against the progress this team has made, and he deserves some of the credit for that.

That's one thing about this message board. Some people criticize Tom. Some criticize Drew. Some criticize Travis. And so on. But I think just about every Bills fans on this board would rather be wrong than right...correct? I mean, Bill in NYC doesn't want Travis to fail. He is a big critic of TH, but I assume Bill would rather Travis prove him wrong than prove him right. The worst fan is the one who criticizes a player and then hopes he fails so he can say, "I told you so."

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I couldn't agree more. The bottom line is that we want the Bills to succeed. I can't imagine anyone wanting to see a failure just to be proved right.

[Alaska Darin]

I couldn't agree more. The bottom line is that we want the Bills to succeed. I can't imagine anyone wanting to see a failure just to be proved right.

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You've obviously never "met" ICE.

[Toledo Bill]

You've obviously never "met" ICE. 

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Point taken!!!!

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Ah, excuse me, but I do recall seeing McGee return some kicks last year. Also, if I'm

not mistaken, he was also noted as a very good return man coming out of college.

 

Not to take anything away from April, but McGee was "found" before he came aboard the ship. What I want to know is why the GW & staff stick with Antonio Brown as long as they did?

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I think the thought with Antonio Brown was based on the old cliche which despite what Don Beeb does to make bucks of you can't teach speed.

 

Brown was apparently quite easily the fastest Bill and he actually had translated that into TDs returning kicks in the CFL and won a job here by returning a couple of kicks for TDs in his first pre-season here.

 

Given the Bills obvious shortcomings in the kick return game and given that he did score on kick returns in the pre-season keeping with him and trying to teach him was a reasonable course or action in my book.

 

Brown's problem as best as I could tell was that if you hit him at all he went down and though he had great track speed, he never proved elusive enough and instinctive enough to avoid hits. Evem this would not be as big of a problem if the ST blocking as a whole was good enough that few tacklers got a clean shot at Brown, but under Smith/GW our ST unit and the kick return game was adequate at best.

 

In the end, the team stuck with Brown for so long because he did show some demonstrated talent in the CFL and on the track, and the fact that he could never turn that talent into regular season NFL performance didn't stop the Bills from trying to make it work as our other options were Jake Reed and Sammy Morris.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think the thought with Antonio Brown was based on the old cliche which despite what Don Beeb does to make bucks of you can't teach speed.

 

Brown was apparently quite easily the fastest Bill and he actually had translated that into TDs returning kicks in the CFL and won a job here by returning a couple of kicks for TDs in his first pre-season here.

 

Given the Bills obvious shortcomings in the kick return game and given that he did score on kick returns in the pre-season keeping with him and trying to teach him was a reasonable course or action in my book.

 

Brown's problem as best as I could tell was that if you hit him at all he went down and though he had great track speed, he never proved elusive enough and instinctive enough to avoid hits.  Evem this would not be as big of a problem if the ST blocking as a whole was good enough that few tacklers got a clean shot at Brown, but under Smith/GW our ST unit and the kick return game was adequate at best.

 

In the end, the team stuck with Brown for so long because he did show some demonstrated talent in the CFL and on the track, and the fact that he could never turn that talent into regular season NFL performance didn't stop the Bills from trying to make it work as our other options were Jake Reed and Sammy Morris.

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It's funny that Antonio is now returning kicks for the Redskins. Gregg Williams and Danny Smith over there obviously must think he was good and recommended him. He looks the same as ever in the few returns I have seen him get. Going nowhere with blazing speed.

[Alaska Darin]

It's funny that Antonio is now returning kicks for the Redskins. Gregg Williams and Danny Smith over there obviously must think he was good and recommended him. He looks the same as ever in the few returns I have seen him get. Going nowhere with blazing speed.

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He's just not a football player. J.Smith is twice the returner A.Brown is (when Freddie isn't doing something blindingly stupid) but his 40 time is fairly pedestrian, especially compared to Brown's. Every time AB caught a ball and got crushed I seriously expected him to break into a thousand pieces.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Folks have asked those who spoke in support of TD during the difficult times to come back to say I told you so folks who ragged on him to step up and admit they were wrong rather than simply turning tale and running as another notable Bills critic on TSW has done when many of the football knowledge assertions he made as stonce cold certainties have simply been shown to be wrong game after game after game after game after game so far.

 

Well, I rise to say that I would actually stand up to say that I was one of those who certainly found great fault with TD's work early in the season (and before) and that clearly the TEAM and he have produced tremendous results these last five games in a row, and probably for two more games in a row (even with the any given Sunday proviso, we are facing the worst team in the league and are likely to get the best team in the league at home with them having already clinched homefield througout the playoffs).

 

However, I would also say that along with finding great fault in some of TDs work, I also have been vocal in pointing to some great work he has done in my view and also defending him against some accusations such as that he has had problems running the draft side of the operation which I think this conclusion didn't stand up to numeric scrutiny.

 

My views of TD remain the same as they have been since virtually the start. He has clear failing in my view as a GM and I would attribute our poor record in the first three years of the TD era to his failing primarily. However, one should not let these problems alter a recognition that there are some very strong parts of his work.

 

I think the real problem with TSW and most of us fans (and I use the word "problem" loosely here because in the end, this is just a game of entertainment and problems in the world of football do not stack up to a hill of beans in relation to the real problems of the world) is that folks seem to want to claim that TD (or any player) is a total stiff who cannot do anything right OR that he is a total god and my guy and thus cannot do anything wrong.

 

This total hot or total cold view is your right as a fan to have, but this non nuanced view simply has nothing to do with reality in that the truth of judging TD or any NFL actors actions is not going to be found in some declaration of black and white, but in the nuances of the gray.

 

Folks have offered that my posts are often so long (either saying they are too long too read or in thanking me for the perspective), but I often make them long because I am using them to walk through my own thinking on the issue as I do my own search for what is most true about this trivial world of football.

 

Overall in my view TD's performance remains the same:

 

The plus side:

 

1. He looks tremendous on the business side which ultimately is where he will be judged by Ralph. The Bills had what seemed to be a mid-20th century level of doing business as it was not too long ago that when you went to pick up ticket as the will call they were sorted into shoe boxes. TD has moved the business side not simply into the late 20th century in terms of basic business, but has actually been quite cutting edge in fashinoning partnership deals like the move to St. John's Fisher and regional marketing of the team, partnerships for ticket distribution with local grocery store chains and moving beyond getting local stations to buy out single seats and small numbers of remaining tickets to create sellouts to getting folks like the local MacDonald's owner to do this and get not only the publicity but the tax write off of donating the tickets to the troops. From all I can tell from outside the business side is humming and this is a big part of TDs job. Ultimately, it helps the team and you and I as games are on TV and the regional approach helps keep the team here and makes us more attractive to FAs.

 

2. He has proved a cagey and innovative negotiator which not only helps the business side, but yields direct benefits on the field because the cap level determines so much about the quality of the players. Basically all agree that he led the charge in getting us out of cap hell a full year or so earlier than expected. From "doing the favor" of extending Travis Henry's contract for what was chump change in the NFL to give him more money than he had ever see, to negotiating extemely Bills friendly contracts to folks like Morman and Adams that the football side correctly judged as major talents, to taking the risky move of signing WM which produced a cap friendly contract for production which we still hope we have not seen the end of, to recognizing that 1st round draft picks are simply a commodity whih can be traded with those who overvalue this asset to get return up front future picks TD has been nothing short of masterful.

 

3. He has maintained and used personal connections to attract assets like Modrak and ick leBeau here who clearly have benefitted the team.

 

4. He recognizes that the draft is relly a crapshoot and his work has been very good at using this resource to meet the Bills needs.

 

Negative side

 

1. As extraordinary as TD has been we have suffered big time from what I see as a very human and primary failing on his part that he was understandably bruised by getting fired by Cowher a guy he hired in Pitts who essentially ran him out of town. The GW hiring simply proved to be one of an HC who was a great DC but who was not ready for primetime. By waiting so the Bills were the last hirer of an HC that year, he had tremendous negotating power as the only option available. In retrospect, the option of GW clearly did not compare to the results produced by John Fox or even those produced by Marvin Lewis who has not yet won, but has turned around a franchise with a history of far worse management than the Bills.

 

He may have been impressed with GW's planning and lists, but this might have made him a good administrative assistant as it turned out he did not have the personal leadership ability or the security to hire guys who had been there before to build a TEAM to reach our goals.

 

2. Not only did he hire the wrong guy, but in terms of management he seemed to adopt a passive-aggressive style which felt fine about GW not doing well enough as long as it was clearly GW's call so that he got the blame. TD simply needed to be even more assertive in convincing/forcing GW to hire some folks who had been there before as GW's teams were hurt by having an OC not up to the job Sheppard), a DC who was learning well but still learning on the job (Gray) and an STC whose main talent seemed to be that he was a buddy of GW's (Smith). Even worse, OL was claerly a troubled area on this team in need of a major retooling and rather than hiring an OL coach with a track record of performance he was allowed to hire Vinky (no OL coaching experience) and Ruel (1 year previous OL experience) to do this job.

 

TD did use his connections and skills to put in place resources for GW to use but did not assert himself to force the hiring of his choice as a replacement for Sheppard (Clements) and instead apparently took GW's choice (Kevin Killdrive). He did finally assert himself after 2 years of defensive failure and brought his buddy LeBeau in and the run-blitz not only quickly made the team effective but also apparently allowed Gray to leave GW's shadow (depending upon Jenkins and Robinson was a big part of the 2002 failure and who should have known better than their DC that they were done).

 

Again even worse that that it was clear that the O wasn't producing under Killdrive and TD apparently brought in his buddy Les Steckel (former OC) as RB coach, but still GW failed to force Killdrive to change or even to fire him as OC as was done by NYG with Sean Payto.

 

So overall, I feel the same about TD as I always have. He is a tremendous GM on the business side and his business acumen has great on the field outcomes for the team. However, his lack of assertiveness which I think is embedded in how he looks at the job after his Pitts experience really cost us three years of bad production as a team. Here's hoping that with the new team on board we finally got it right!