Occupy Ralph Wilson???

[CBD]

Absolutely. There are intangibles. I have no issue with keeping the place up in order to keep the team viable. I just think it's obvious that RW is playing up the City's love for the Bills to get more than is needed.

 

Let's keep the infrastructure sound. Let's improve the bathrooms. I'm even for adding permanent bathrooms to the tailgating scene. However, basic infra, and inside and outside toilets dont come close to costing $50-$100 mil. I'd like to see a detailed breakdown of what they intend to do. Either way, they want improvements that go far beyond the basics to keep the place in decent shape.

 

LET'S GO BILLS!!

You state that it's obvious that RW is trying to get more than is needed, and that they want inprovements that go far beyond the basics, but then that we don't have any idea what they intend to do.

 

They don't have to sign a new lease, I assume part of the deal is the improvements. If the state doesn't want to do the improvements, the team doesn't have to sign the lease. I'm glad they're using state money instead of county, especially since Yankee Stadium, Citi Field & the Brooklyn arena have all recently received state funds or tax breaks as well.

[Keukasmallies]

I understand the first part of the post, about the taxes generated by the team, stadium, etc. I'm scratching my head over the idea that renovation of RW stadium is even on the top twenty-five list of things needed in good ol' NYS. Don't we have infrastructure needs that take priority over a sports venue?

[weehawk]

Yes, the lease comes into play and we dont yet fully know what they intend to do. The County is in no position to give the team anything, so that's an easy one. However, my follow-up then asks the question...where will they go if they dont get everything they want from the State? I'm not saying give them nothing, but I am saying that this should be well thought out before checks are signed.

 

LA and TO are the obvious possibilities for a move, but neither has an NFL-level stadium. This is a big deal. Both stadium ideas in LA are tied to a partial sale of the team to the stadium developer. This of course gets very dicey with Ralph's eventual demise and the complexities involved in billion dollar deals and estates.

 

TO would likely be forced to build a new stadium and I'm not convinced that the people of Ontario really love the NFL that much to see their taxes skyrocket to get a team.

 

The State has to offer up something to keep the team in the stadium. But when I hear $100 mil being floated, red lights flash that it's got to be more than what is absolutely needed. Let's see what they come up with and talk again.

 

 

 

You state that it's obvious that RW is trying to get more than is needed, and that they want inprovements that go far beyond the basics, but then that we don't have any idea what they intend to do.

 

They don't have to sign a new lease, I assume part of the deal is the improvements. If the state doesn't want to do the improvements, the team doesn't have to sign the lease. I'm glad they're using state money instead of county, especially since Yankee Stadium, Citi Field & the Brooklyn arena have all recently received state funds or tax breaks as well.

[gumby]

I hope that all the posters in this thread that are so quick to spend $100 million of the taxpayers dollars actually live in NY.

[dwight in philly]

I hope that all the posters in this thread that are so quick to spend $100 million of the taxpayers dollars actually live in NY.

i do not live in ny state anymore, but if i did my feelings would not change, i have said it before, why not see a tangible result from all the tax revenue? all the drivel about roads, bridges, etc, does not matter. the politcos continually pi$$ away tax dollars , why not on something that actually contributes to the "quality of life" in buffalo? all the hand wringing "taxpayer watchdogs" really get loud when it comes to sports. sure it doesnt add up that taxpayers have to pony up for ralph, but the alternative is unacceptable!common sense should prevail, not a bunch of self-righteous rhetoric. just do it and shut up! i am sure if the bills leave, people will be flocking to see the "new roads and bridges".

[jo39416]

I hope that all the posters in this thread that are so quick to spend $100 million of the taxpayers dollars actually live in NY.

 

You do realize that posters (like me) who don't currently live in western new york are part of the exact reason its a GREAT idea for the State of New York to shell out cash for these stadium upgrades.

 

I come to Buffalo twice a year - both primarily due to the fact I love the Bills and Sabres. I eat at restaurants, spend nights at hotels, rent cars, visit the ballet (Canadian stimulus). On top of that I almost always bring buddies with me that have never been to Western New York and otherwise have no interest in going. I have never had any of those people come away with anything other than a very positive attitude of the area.

 

There is no difference between doing something like this and giving money via tax abatements to a Fortune 100 to come to your town.

[JuanGuzman]

http://tonawanda-news.com/opinion/x1415458100/CONFER-Occupy-Ralph-Wilson-Stadium

 

.... Then add Sales tax for tix and bills merchandise, Bed tax from hotel rooms of travelers coming to games, Bar and restaraunt business on game days , the list goes on and on. Sorry this is so long but this has really been bugging me. These people need to see that although they may not care whether the Bills leave or not, the economic impact of having the team here is incredible and would be sorely missed if the team ever left. WRITE THIS GUY AN EMAIL AND LET HIM KNOW THAT HE IS WRONG!! Go Bills!!

 

To me your example is a zero-sum game. Yes the city of Buffalo benefits from all the tourist spending associated with Bills presence but those gains are offset elsewhere by reduced spending elsewhere. So while Bar's and restaurants near Ralph Wilson stadium see revenue increase -- those sales taxes don't neccessarily improve government coffers as they come at the expense of reduced spending elsewhere -- the reverse is bowling alleys in rochester, tourist destinations in Niagara lose of share of consumer spending revenue.

 

Basically the size of the pie is more or less fixed, consumers will spend a fixed amount of dollars in NY State and all government subsidies will achieve is altering the size of the slice of pie each industry/region receives. You can argue that the Buffalo Bills generate a non-trivial amount of spending from regions outside of New York State e.g, Ontario but there its hard to prove that is the most efficient use of govt tax dollars, why not just subsidize flights to NYC from Toronto or better yet reduce state income taxed total take by $100 million so that the state's residents can decide what to do with the extra cash in their pockets.

 

IMO Governments should not pick winners and losers. Ye subsidies can benefit a local region but its at the expense of another region, and more dangerously as if more and money pours into subsidizing the policy basically results in beggar by thy neighbor (basically regions just try and "steal tourists from each other" and stops producing any real value.

Edited October 27, 2011 by JuanGuzman

[wonderbread]

I'll go occupy RWS when we play the Jets in a couple weeks. Who's with me?

me.

[dwight in philly]

To me your example is a zero-sum game. Yes the city of Buffalo benefits from all the tourist spending associated with Bills presence but those gains are offset elsewhere by reduced spending elsewhere. So while Bar's and restaurants near Ralph Wilson stadium see revenue increase -- those sales taxes don't neccessarily improve government coffers as they come at the expense of reduced spending elsewhere -- the reverse is bowling alleys in rochester, tourist destinations in Niagara lose of share of consumer spending revenue.

 

Basically the size of the pie is more or less fixed, consumers will spend a fixed amount of dollars in NY State and all government subsidies will achieve is altering the size of the slice of pie each industry/region receives. You can argue that the Buffalo Bills generate a non-trivial amount of spending from regions outside of New York State e.g, Ontario but there its hard to prove that is the most efficient use of govt tax dollars, why not just subsidize flights to NYC from Toronto or better yet reduce state income taxed total take by $100 million so that the state's residents can decide what to do with the extra cash in their pockets.

 

IMO Governments should not pick winners and losers. Ye subsidies can benefit a local region but its at the expense of another region, and more dangerously as if more and money pours into subsidizing the policy basically results in beggar by thy neighbor (basically regions just try and "steal tourists from each other" and stops producing any real value.

i am not the smartest guy in the room, im not sure what you are talking about.

Edited October 27, 2011 by dwight in philly

[JuanGuzman]

i am not the smartest guy in the room, im not sure what you are talking about.

 

Well that usually means I did a poor job of explaining. I'll try one more attempt. Basically lets assume you personally allocate $3000 dollars a year for your "entertainment consumption" because you like the bills you spend all of your entertainment budget on them. If the bills go away does where does that $3000 go, if you just stuck it under your mattress then its unproductive, and if a lot of people were like you and just took there money and went home (to put it under the mattress) you could justify subsidizing the bills.

 

But I think the reality is you would just spend that money elsewhere, maybe go out to eat more often, maybe you'd rent on demand videos, maybe you invest that money and then a banker loans it out to small business in Rochester. You may be less happy cause your a Bills fans, but state revenues don't change at all. And someone will in fact be happier that his or her tax dollars aren't going to support a football team and instead maybe are being used to support their favorite Orchestra or something.

 

There are plenty of way to encourage tourism across the board, and there is no evidence that subsidizing the Bills is any better than other competing ideas out there. e.g., why not reduce the sales tax across the board instead.

[dwight in philly]

Well that usually means I did a poor job of explaining. I'll try one more attempt. Basically lets assume you personally allocate $3000 dollars a year for your "entertainment consumption" because you like the bills you spend all of your entertainment budget on them. If the bills go away does where does that $3000 go, if you just stuck it under your mattress then its unproductive, and if a lot of people were like you and just took there money and went home (to put it under the mattress) you could justify subsidizing the bills.

 

But I think the reality is you would just spend that money elsewhere, maybe go out to eat more often, maybe you'd rent on demand videos, maybe you invest that money and then a banker loans it out to small business in Rochester. You may be less happy cause your a Bills fans, but state revenues don't change at all. And someone will in fact be happier that his or her tax dollars aren't going to support a football team and instead maybe are being used to support their favorite Orchestra or something.

 

There are plenty of way to encourage tourism across the board, and there is no evidence that subsidizing the Bills is any better than other competing ideas out there. e.g., why not reduce the sales tax across the board instead.

ok, i kinda grasp your premise, but respectfully disagree with it. the bills are a "mindset", a way of life, autumn and early winter sunday's are built around bills games. i do not see that happening in other facets of which you referenced i e "favorite orchestra", the bills, (rightly or wrongly) permeate a great many of the populace's souls, hence the need to spend the necessary resources to keep them.

Edited October 27, 2011 by dwight in philly

[JuanGuzman]

ok, i kinda grasp your premise, but respectfully disagree with it. the bills are a "mindset", a way of life, autumn and early winter sunday's are built around bills games. i do not see that happening in other facets of which you referenced i e "favorite orchestra", the bills, (rightly or wrongly) permeate a great many of the populace's souls, hence the need to spend the necessary resources to keep them.

 

I hear the argument for civic pride and I agree it. As a Bills fans I want to see them remain in Buffalo and would be happy to see tax payers finance there stadium re-build. I just feel like the economic justifications for a tax payer funded situation are murky at best. Obviously Buffalo benefits economically but its is also clear that there losers as well.

[dwight in philly]

I hear the argument for civic pride and I agree it. As a Bills fans I want to see them remain in Buffalo and would be happy to see tax payers finance there stadium re-build. I just feel like the economic justifications for a tax payer funded situation are murky at best. Obviously Buffalo benefits economically but its is also clear that there losers as well.

well, there are always going to be losers, quite frankly. as i have said in a similar thread,we, in WNY, might be deemed "losers" based on the fact that ny state funded 80 mill to the ny mets to assist in funding citifield . i heard absolutely no outcry in WNY when that happened because most were not aware, OR affected by it. you have valid points, most i would agree with in the real world, but in the case of the BILLS and securing taxpayer funds, or whatever resources that are necessary , i say it has to be done. i will not bore anyone with the numerous mistakes the region has made over the years, but losing the bills would be the death knell.

[Mr. WEO]

You do realize that posters (like me) who don't currently live in western new york are part of the exact reason its a GREAT idea for the State of New York to shell out cash for these stadium upgrades.

 

I come to Buffalo twice a year - both primarily due to the fact I love the Bills and Sabres. I eat at restaurants, spend nights at hotels, rent cars, visit the ballet (Canadian stimulus). On top of that I almost always bring buddies with me that have never been to Western New York and otherwise have no interest in going. I have never had any of those people come away with anything other than a very positive attitude of the area.

 

There is no difference between doing something like this and giving money via tax abatements to a Fortune 100 to come to your town.

Of course there is--the Bills are already in Buffalo. They have no plans for leaving.

[jwmann2]

Los Angeles is pushing hard for a team. They don't deserve one. But I think it will be the Jaguars that do go if this happens. The Bills fans are so passionate, and the economy in Buffalo would take a major hit if this team left. The fans spend so much money on food, tickets and merchandise and the players spend so much money on cars, women and bar tabs. Football needs to stay in Buffalo.

[Just Jack]

Bathrooms in the parking lots! When it gets cold they will be packed with "heat seekers". I hope they make them a $$$$ makes charging for per use, selling naming rights per stall. Don't forget now you will have added "game day cost", paid by Erie County, of an restroom attendant. Added cost of maintence, ,repairs , etc. Don't forget to tip the attendant! They will be a "waste" of money.

The "Billy Joe Hobart" stall will have instructions written on the walls for how to use a toilet.

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

Los Angeles is pushing hard for a team. They don't deserve one. But I think it will be the Jaguars that do go if this happens. The Bills fans are so passionate, and the economy in Buffalo would take a major hit if this team left. The fans spend so much money on food, tickets and merchandise and the players spend so much money on cars, women and bar tabs. Football needs to stay in Buffalo.

That's incorrect. You realize the fans will just spend their discretionary spending on other hobbies right ? They are not all of q sudden going to hold back that money

[Just Jack]

me.

Ok! So that's two of us. Here's an idea, let's all wear something white to help us pick each other out easier.

[tompkr1967]

this confer guy is creepy ... like a weird tea bagger republican !!!! i want the bills to stay and have no problem fixing up the ralph as long as 1. erie county gets a say in what needs to be done . 2. long term lease with a clause of no breaking for any reason. oh ya, OCCUPY WALL STREET.... AND I HAVE A GOOD JOB !!!!!!

[SactoBillFan]

Oh boy. Here we go again. Sports teams generate so much income for the State that taxpayers should be glad to hand over their money to support them. blah blah.

 

Let's think about it and use the Bills as an example...

 

The Bills leave and...

 

1) Everyone stops drinking

2) No one drives anywhere anymore

3) Economic activity in the State is devastated by the loss of Bills merchandise sales

 

There have been tons of well-researched articles that show that the economic benefits of sports teams do NOT offset huge investments by State governments in said teams. i.e., http://www.fieldofschemes.com/

 

It's real simple...Joe Six-pack has X amount of dollars to spare on Bills-related spending every year. The Bills leave and he simply spends his money on other things. He still drives. He still drinks. He buys Sabres merch instead, etc, etc. Disposable income will be spent regardless of whether it's on a sports team, on trips to NYC, or on a new car. The only counter-argument is if Joe starts taking out-of-state vacations with that money and NY loses out.

 

This is exactly what people like RW want you to believe. Take care of me or else I'll take the team away and your economy will be devastated. BS people! The only people that truly get screwed are the part-time vendors at the stadium. Labatts will still sell tons of beer and Sahlens will still sell tons of hot dogs. If your job is not impacted, then you still have the same amount of money you had before they left and you will spend that money on something else if not the Bills.

 

Start insisting on accountability from your State govt or else the economy of the State will be devastated and not from the loss of the Bills. On a side note, I agree that the State needs to invest "some" money on stadium upkeep. However, $50-$100 million is not upkeep. It's improvements.

 

Let me see. You have 53 NFL players living in Buffalo, plus the practice squad and coaches. A good number of these people are millionares. Do you think they will spend any money in Buffalo? Buy a house? Rent an apartment? Go to a restauraunt? I'm sure they don't buy groceries or cars or anything like that. Do you think they will pay any sales/income taxes? How about the visiting players? Will they spend any money? Will NYS collect any sales taxes on them if they do? How many jobs will be lost if the Bills are not in Buffalo? I could go on with the questions but I think you get what I'm saying.

 

I don't live in WNY any more but I think you are being a little short-sighted and politically bent. Nice long winded argument though.