San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 25, 2011 Author Posted October 25, 2011 The OP, in his eternal quest for a "consensus" on a football message board (what he means is that everyone must agree with his rather pedestrian views), calls Manning a "money grubber." This is, imo, a ridiculous tangent he is running with. PM won the Colts a superbowl with a good, not great team. He got them back, well into his thirties, with an average team. Your question about whether it is the right move to build around a quarterback rates a seperate thread. We probably will not reach a "consensus," but I think it would bring out some great dialogue. Bill, like a little boy, you continue to attempt to antagonize me in spite of the fact that I only address you in response to your attempted barbs against me… except for one time recently where I attempted some humor in a conciliatory way. I don't comment on your posts and I try not being a pest like you are being. Below is a sampler of your childish behavior. I don't know what your agenda is nor do I care but for the record, if you don't like me, why don't you simply ignore me? http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023'>http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023'>http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023 "Your posts are stiff and stupid. Answering questions and addressing points isn't your forte, is it? But, what is clear is that you are forming all encompassing opinions after 4 games, and demanding that others share your simplistic view at the risk of baring your sophomoric, idiotic wrath. Carry on, but you are offensive, and making a fool of yourself." http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023 "You will hate hearing this, but we agree 100% on the above. Go ahead and edit." http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023 "Careful, he might hang himself on the mere premise of being slighted by someone as all knowing as you."
Bill from NYC Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Bill, like a little boy, you continue to attempt to antagonize me in spite of the fact that I only address you in response to your attempted barbs against me… except for one time recently where I attempted some humor in a conciliatory way. I don't comment on your posts and I try not being a pest like you are being. Below is a sampler of your childish behavior. I don't know what your agenda is nor do I care but for the record, if you don't like me, why don't you simply ignore me? http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023'>http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023'>http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023 "Your posts are stiff and stupid. Answering questions and addressing points isn't your forte, is it? But, what is clear is that you are forming all encompassing opinions after 4 games, and demanding that others share your simplistic view at the risk of baring your sophomoric, idiotic wrath. Carry on, but you are offensive, and making a fool of yourself." http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023 "You will hate hearing this, but we agree 100% on the above. Go ahead and edit." http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/136114-do-the-bills-have-the-best-o-line-in-the-nfl/page__view__findpost__p__2275023 "Careful, he might hang himself on the mere premise of being slighted by someone as all knowing as you." Get yourself together and grow up. Seriously.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 I think a good question is would the Saints be winless without Brees? The Packers without Rodgers or the Patsies* without Brady? In other words, would/should a perennial playoff team completely collapse if their QB missed the season? When I look at the Colts I see a roster with lots of holes in it and not much talent. I see a team falling apart due to weak leadership in the coaching ranks. I think this has to be put on Polian, as great a GM as he has been in the past.
miserable_fan Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Manning has the ability to turn ANY football team into a superbowl contender. I don't know why people are surprised that they are winless thusfar.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 Manning has the ability to turn ANY football team into a superbowl contender. I don't know why people are surprised that they are winless thusfar. So you think Polian has done a good job in the last few years?
NoSaint Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I think a good question is would the Saints be winless without Brees? The Packers without Rodgers or the Patsies* without Brady? In other words, would/should a perennial playoff team completely collapse if their QB missed the season? When I look at the Colts I see a roster with lots of holes in it and not much talent. I see a team falling apart due to weak leadership in the coaching ranks. I think this has to be put on Polian, as great a GM as he has been in the past. They've ir'ed numerous other players too though. Let's not pretend this team is otherwise healthy. Several of those leaders are hurt as far as I know.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 They've ir'ed numerous other players too though. Let's not pretend this team is otherwise healthy. Several of those leaders are hurt as far as I know. Yeah, good point. Gary Brackett, Dallas Clark, and Anthony Costanzo come to mind.
The Big Cat Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I think a good question is would the Saints be winless without Brees? The Packers without Rodgers or the Patsies* without Brady? In other words, would/should a perennial playoff team completely collapse if their QB missed the season? When I look at the Colts I see a roster with lots of holes in it and not much talent. I see a team falling apart due to weak leadership in the coaching ranks. I think this has to be put on Polian, as great a GM as he has been in the past. I feel like its 2009 all over again and we're arguing whos at fault, the OLine or Trent. Funny you mention Brees and Rodgers specifically--two QBs who spread the ball around and make defenses dizzy--neither without the luxury of a standout back, receiver, and in the case of Green Bay, an elite offensive line. Both also won super bowls playing alongside aggressive defenses who, again, faced offenses who were rarely in a position to dictate their gameplan having to constantly play catch up. So yes I feel like New Orleans and Green Bay would both collapse without their QBs, just as I argued that Trent was the cancer restricting our own roster.
NoSaint Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I feel like its 2009 all over again and we're arguing whos at fault, the OLine or Trent. Funny you mention Brees and Rodgers specifically--two QBs who spread the ball around and make defenses dizzy--neither without the luxury of a standout back, receiver, and in the case of Green Bay, an elite offensive line. Both also won super bowls playing alongside aggressive defenses who, again, faced offenses who were rarely in a position to dictate their gameplan having to constantly play catch up. So yes I feel like New Orleans and Green Bay would both collapse without their QBs, just as I argued that Trent was the cancer restricting our own roster. Chase Daniel would likely win a couple games but I generally agree for all the reasons you've pointed out. The whole philosophy is centered on brees- even the defense. At this point I think the line and backs are good enough to steal a few but they'd likely be a top 5 pick.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 I dunno BC. Both the Saints and Packers have much better offensive weapons, better O-lines, and better defenses than Indy, IMO. Offensively at the skill positions, the Saints have Colston, Moore, Henderson, Meacham, Sproles, Ingram, Pierre Thomas, and Jimmy Graham. Green Bay has Jennings, Driver, Jones, Jordy Nelson, Grant, Starks, and Jermichael Finley. And that's not even getting into the O-lines and defenses which are more talented than Indy's IMO. That's my point. That the roster that Polian has put together is inferior to to the roster on teams like New England, New Orleans, and Green Bay.
NoSaint Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 the saints have nothing without brees. I wouldn't go that far. They would be severely limited with chase for sure. I like chase more than painter though. And generally think it's a more talented roster than Indy. The way they are built though is very tailored to drew, I'll give you that.
The Big Cat Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I dunno BC. Both the Saints and Packers have much better offensive weapons, better O-lines, and better defenses than Indy, IMO. Offensively at the skill positions, the Saints have Colston, Moore, Henderson, Meacham, Sproles, Ingram, Pierre Thomas, and Jimmy Graham. Green Bay has Jennings, Driver, Jones, Jordy Nelson, Grant, Starks, and Jermichael Finley. And that's not even getting into the O-lines and defenses which are more talented than Indy's IMO. That's my point. That the roster that Polian has put together is inferior to to the roster on teams like New England, New Orleans, and Green Bay. Okay...collapse, perhaps not. Indy has been a winner for a decade now, something few teams accomplish. Even the ravens who I mentioned earlier have had their down years and the Bree's/Rodgers eras are dawning as opposed to the Manning twilight. So the jury's out. Manning has outlived the rise and fall of elite talent around him. But the foundation is showing its cracks and without PM, there's definitely some rebuilding pains in their future. Any GM who's overseen the winningest decade AND wears a ring is by no means a failure. I do believe however that their small quick turf D is bound to have late season/playoff troubles and can survive only in a handful of circumstances, one of those being the luxury of squaring off against offenses forced into a one dimensional corner. So this years debacle doesnt necessarily lay at ANY one set of feet, because the team is built with PM dictating most of the decision making/risk taking.
Mr. WEO Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I feel like its 2009 all over again and we're arguing whos at fault, the OLine or Trent. Funny you mention Brees and Rodgers specifically--two QBs who spread the ball around and make defenses dizzy--neither without the luxury of a standout back, receiver, and in the case of Green Bay, an elite offensive line. Both also won super bowls playing alongside aggressive defenses who, again, faced offenses who were rarely in a position to dictate their gameplan having to constantly play catch up. So yes I feel like New Orleans and Green Bay would both collapse without their QBs, just as I argued that Trent was the cancer restricting our own roster. GB doesn't have any standout receivers?? How do you write something like that?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 Yeah, BC. Maybe I've been misconstrued by some but my point was not that Polian has done a bad job in Indy, but that he (or his sons) have not done a good job lately. Anyways, it looks like they'll have a good shot at the big prize in the draft.
The Big Cat Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 GB doesn't have any standout receivers?? How do you write something like that? One letter at a time.
Fan in Chicago Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I wouldn't go that far. They would be severely limited with chase for sure. I like chase more than painter though. And generally think it's a more talented roster than Indy. The way they are built though is very tailored to drew, I'll give you that. Any team, with a a probowl QB, will take a step down with a backup QB. So, it wouldnt be surprising in NO if that were to happen. However, your second point is the one that is at issue here - Indy does not have an overall good roster (injuries further exposed their depth). Pretty much every successful business has planned for a 'hit by a bus' scenario when its success is tied to a single person. Indy has not done that.
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Any team, with a a probowl QB, will take a step down with a backup QB. So, it wouldnt be surprising in NO if that were to happen. However, your second point is the one that is at issue here - Indy does not have an overall good roster (injuries further exposed their depth). Pretty much every successful business has planned for a 'hit by a bus' scenario when its success is tied to a single person. Indy has not done that. I think QB quality is such that the great ones fundamentally alter the course of the game in their presence and in their absence. But there aren't 64 of those great ones to go around. A couple of teams might have more than one capable starter on their hands, but as AD noted, it's pretty tough to get a great competitor to sit behind a guy like manning when he knows his opportunities will be limited. Maybe Manning's injury and the success of players who have sat behind stars, like Rodgers, will make some think twice. The fact remains, though, that most QBs who believe in their ability believe they can turn a bad team into a winner.
apuszczalowski Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The Colts are basically a team built on a poor foundation. They are a luxury home built on a couple of cinder blocks for the foundation. In Polians career (spanning 20+ seasons), he has 1 SB championship and about 7 SB appearances. The guy built a really good Bills football team in Buffalo at a time when it was easier to build a team to be successful over multiple seasons, He last 4 seasons in Carolina where he built a team that appeared in a SB, and then came to Indy where he was lucky wnough to have one of the best QB's in the game fall into his lap and carry an average team to huge success. I would say that in his career, he has been a good GM, but Saint Polian isn't the football genius/god that everyone here seems to want to make him out to be, especially in the last few years in Indy
The Big Cat Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The Colts are basically a team built on a poor foundation. They are a luxury home built on a couple of cinder blocks for the foundation. In Polians career (spanning 20+ seasons), he has 1 SB championship and about 7 SB appearances. The guy built a really good Bills football team in Buffalo at a time when it was easier to build a team to be successful over multiple seasons, He last 4 seasons in Carolina where he built a team that appeared in a SB, and then came to Indy where he was lucky wnough to have one of the best QB's in the game fall into his lap and carry an average team to huge success. I would say that in his career, he has been a good GM, but Saint Polian isn't the football genius/god that everyone here seems to want to make him out to be, especially in the last few years in Indy Chris has been their GM for the last two drafts, IIRC.
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