Melt down in Indy…

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Seems like polian is retired already. Remember buf got old at once too. Colts are there. If the colts land luck it could end up like gb where there usher out the hall of famer to implant the next.

As Buffalonians, we know that nepotism is all well and good… until it stops working.

 

I wonder if any Giambras are working in the Colts front office.

 

 

[Rob's House]

I don't know how successful Luck will be if Caldwell's still coaching. Manning was already well established as the heart of the team when simple Jim stumbled into his glorified clipboard holder position. Bad coaching can really stunt the growth of a talented prospect in the developmental stages.

[C.Biscuit97]

Let's be honest here. Polian is a bit overrated. Twice he was in situations where he had the #1 overall pick (Bruce Smith and Peyton Manning). Pretty good way to start building a franchise. In Carolina, he had multiple top 5 picks.

 

Fans want to talk about how great he is but the Bills managed to go 7-9 with JP Losman and Trent Edwards. The Colts look like one of the worst teams ever without one player. That doesn't speak to a quality foundation.

 

Also, I found this hilarious.

 

There are so many ways to go with this.....

 

1) The Bills have never been in a situation where they have a top 5 all time qb on their team who ate up such a huge chunk of the payroll, let alone in a salary cap era.

 

2) For the record, the year before they drafted manning, they too Tarik Glenn (LT) and Adam Meadows (RT) in rounds 1 and 2.

 

3) Polian (no, I don't have a link) admitted that he was either missing on picks and/or neglecting the OL of late.

 

4) The Colts are a dome team. Their defense was small and fast. A player such as Freeney could pin his ears back and go for the sack because Manning would pile up points and make teams have to pass. Manning made that team. It's been obvious for a while.

 

In other words, Polian isn't the problem. He built his team according to circumstance, and probably whiffed a few times along the way. He is a winner, and built great teams wherever he went. He has a line of people who worked under him that were successful.

 

Think about Polian, then give some thought to Levy/Jauron.

Sorry completely disagree. You hated Levy/ Jauron, yet they managed to build football teams that could win 7 games with Losman and Edwards. It's not hard to figure that if you switch those 2 all pros with Manning that the Bills would have been an annual playoff team. I always thought Jauron was Dungy, just with a crappy QB. So if the Bills can win 7 games with that crappy duo, how does Polian not get blamed for this disaster of a team in Indy?

 

Also, Dick Jauron is currently the DC of the #4 ranked defense in the NFL.

[Dragonborn10]

I think most people are neglecting how bad their offensive line is. One need look no further than the Bilsl to see what at least a competent(pre-LT injury) O-line has done for Buffalo this year. And it really is bad drafting and not necessarily forgetting about the line on draft day. They have drafted 9 O-lineman since 2006 and 4 were in the first or second round. One might say with some merit that they have wasted picks on luxury players like Anthony Gonzalez and Donald Brown but they haven't completely ignored the offensive line. Just bad drafting. Simple as that. A few bad drafts and all of a sudden you are an aging team susceptible to injury at key positions with little depth.

[Tcali]

After last night's 62-7 prime time debacle which dropped the Colts to 0-7, you can all imagine the teeth gnashing going on in Indy.

 

There is actually some speculation that Irsay and Company could make a clean sweep and re-make the Colts Front Office, sans Bill, Chris, and Dennis Polian.

 

As many here have surmised over the past two seasons or so, the Colts are an average football team that overly relied on Peyton Manning, and now without him, they have been exposed.

 

In addition, the Colts have not been drafting well recently… supposedly one of Bill Polian's strengths.

 

I'm interested to hear people's opinions on the Indy situation and would love to hear from people living in the Indy area.

I think its going perfectly for the Colts. Their franchise QB is just down the street from you SJB.

I close to agree with you but I would say that the Colts have been an above average football team with Manning making them

dangerous in the playoffs every year. I though they had some decent talent there---but the 62 points is hard to swallow.

I've always thought of polian as a very very good GM not great.I think he got fortunate the year they won the SB because of

NEs misfortune.-In Buffalo he didn't put enough size on our D line.-Everything else he did a darn good job of.

Remember though--our beloved Bills would be 0-7 or 1-6 with painter at QB.

[benderbender]

You don't lose by 55 only because of a QB

[Ray]

It goes to show you everyone who said the Bills would be good and Trent Edwards/JP Losman/Drew Bledsoe/etc... would be good if only the had an OL were completely wrong and it was the QB who stunk not the OL. Well folks, this is the best experiment going. Remove the QB, who in this case is one of the best of all time, and you see how he compensates for EVERY other offensive player on the field. With PM on the field the other team changes everything they do on defnse and how aggressive they are, the offense changes to keep up with P Manning. A smart QB is so important nowadays for protection schemes, knowing what the defense is most likely to do, getting WRs in the right position. If you put T Thigpen behind our OL he would be the most sacked QB in the NFL, whereas Fitz knows what is going on and uses his smarts to compensate for some physical limitations.

[The Senator]

Dead man walking...

Link - Indianapolis Star thinks Caldwell is a goner

 

Link - Jim Caldwell Fired? Indianapolis Star Thinks So

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

I would say that the offense that Polian built around Manning was perfect for their offense - excellent route runners with TEs who can get down the field plus north-south RBs who can excel on stretch plays and the like. And, given that the offense was always going to score points, the Colts needed pass rushers. Polian drafted the best pass rusher in the league for the last half decade, Dwight Freeney.

 

Agreed, and I want to float a premise out there.....

 

I make the case that Aaron Schobel was not THAT far behind Freeney. I do this btw without looking up stats.

Very often Manning would put up huge points early, and Freeney, a very fast player, could pin his ears back and go for the sack. My point? Manning had a huge impact on the Colts defense too.

 

I could easily be wrong but when the Colts won the Superbowl, I didn't think they were THAT good. Just a perfectly constructed dome team, with an all time great at QB.

The year that they lost to N.O., I thought they were average. Manning had perhaps his best season to get them to the SB.

 

The man (who I hope never risks his health and plays again) made as much as a difference, I think more, than any 1 player ever made to a team. Polian built around this and won big time.

 

I'm with you.....Kudos to Polian!

 

Sorry completely disagree. You hated Levy/ Jauron, yet they managed to build football teams that could win 7 games with Losman and Edwards.

 

One of their many faults was that they tried to build a team as if the Bills too play in a dome. They do not. They play in the elements as do 2 of their divisional opponents. And, they stunk up draft after draft, as well as free agent signings.

 

Polian has a proven record of winning. It's beyond dispute. Jauron can't get a job as a head coach, and Levy all but destroyed this team as GM. No comparison.

[Mr. WEO]

I think most people are neglecting how bad their offensive line is. One need look no further than the Bilsl to see what at least a competent(pre-LT injury) O-line has done for Buffalo this year. And it really is bad drafting and not necessarily forgetting about the line on draft day. They have drafted 9 O-lineman since 2006 and 4 were in the first or second round. One might say with some merit that they have wasted picks on luxury players like Anthony Gonzalez and Donald Brown but they haven't completely ignored the offensive line. Just bad drafting. Simple as that. A few bad drafts and all of a sudden you are an aging team susceptible to injury at key positions with little depth.

Few QBs have been touched less than P Manning. Everyone says "he gets rid of the ball quickly"--yes, he does, but no one is that quick for their entire career. He has plenty of time to throw. Go review his sack numbers year after year. A large part of that has to be good protection.

[The Big Cat]

So one has to ask the question:

 

Does building a team around a quarterback inevitably lead to a swift and mighty downfall. Is it an sustainable formula doomed to fail?

 

Aside from an elite quarterback's ability to hide weaknesses on your offense, he's also able to dictate what opposing teams have to do keep pace, thus giving and advantage to your defense.

 

Think of a great quarterback like PM as a team's deflector shields. Once they go down, it's a whole new ball game.

 

Also--and this might be an even bigger downside to building a team around a quarterback--the salary and compensation demands that a quarterback like PM puts on a franchise's payroll can hamstring the level of talent that might otherwise be brought in to create that supporting cast.

 

There's been a lot of talk in this thread and others about the consistent success of the Ravens teams built by Ozzie Newsome. Yet none of those teams, for all their wins, playoff appearances, etc. ever featured what anyone would consider an "elite" quarterback. The talent level was spread out and ultimately a better TEAM was built/sustained.

 

Likewise, in Pittsburgh, they happened upon Big Ben, but throughout that franchise's entire history, a history one could easily argue has been the most storied and successful in NFL history, the quarterback has not been the REASON for their success.

 

Now, back to Indianapolis.

 

Peyton Manning has sold a ton of tickets, a ton of jerseys and won a TON of regular season games. But for all the money he's made, all the notoriety he's brought to the franchise, and all the money he's cost them, there's only ONE Lombardi Trophy that has his fingerprints on it.

 

So for all you "Luck is the second coming of Christ" lemmings, and for all the people who clamored last year that Buffalo "NEEDS ITS FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!!", I ask again, what evidence is there that intentionally building a franchise around a quarterback has wielded the kind of success that doesn't result in an inevitable oh-****-reset moment somewhere down the line?

[apuszczalowski]

A great GM builds the his team around the great QB also. he doesn't just sit back and rely on the QB to stay healthy and hope things work out, and when that QB goes down, they don't just throw the season away hoping that he might come back late in the year. The Pats went through this and hardly missed a beat without Brady when he got hurt. The Steelers could still win some games without Ben, etc.

 

But i'm probably wrong because Saint Polian can do no wrong.....

[Mr. WEO]

So one has to ask the question:

 

Does building a team around a quarterback inevitably lead to a swift and mighty downfall. Is it an sustainable formula doomed to fail?

 

The answer is no.

 

Nothing prevented this team from drafting a QB this year (Dalton, Mallett, Kaepernick all available) instead of blowing the pick on an LT. Didn't they know Manning was going to have a second neck surgery??

 

Look, when Manning left the Colts, he took the HC and OC with him. There is no way this team should be playing so poorly (horribly) if they had competent coaching.

 

Polian had a chance to get ready for Manning's inevitable end this past draft. He blew it.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Hey BC.

 

There are franchise quarterbacks and then there are the top 4-5 elite quarterbacks. Then there's the question of where those QB are in their contracts so that's a big factor in answering your hypothetical. It can mean a distinction between almost $20 million/year and about half that amount.

 

For instance, Drew Brees is in the last year of a contract that pays him $7.4 million. Aaron Rodgers is in the midst of a 6-year contract he signed in 2008 for which he's being paid only $7.25 million this year.

 

Brady and Manning are both in the $18 million per year range because they both have relatively new contracts.

 

 

As for your question, I do not think that having a $20 million/year franchise quarterback disqualifies a team having long-term success but I do think it makes it a lot more difficult.

 

Part of the subtext for the Manning situation was that he was always gonna command a huge contract and this did somewhat hamper the Colts payroll flexibility. As much as I am annoyed by Tom Brady, for several seasons he actually took less money in order to allow the Patriots to address needs at other positions.

 

Manning is the ultimate money monger… compare his level of commercial endorsements to those of Brady who despite his model-looks and public recognition does almost no commercial endorsements at all. Manning was never gonna take less than all he could get and I don't blame him.

 

Again I believe that the franchise quarterback (and we will soon see the domino effect when Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers sign their new deals) can make things more challenging for the organization in the long term but IMO that's a copout.

 

My criticism of Polian is that his coaching hire of Caldwell (basically attempting to maintain the status quo) and also his drafts have not "done the trick."

 

Some people want to let him off the hook citing poor draft position but as Bills fans we all know that you can point to players drafted later that have done better.

 

Here's the link to the Colts draft history. Like the Bills under Modrak, Polian has his share of good late and mid round picks but pretty much zero impact players since Bob Sanders in 2004. In this regard also, I think he's been living off his reputation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Colts_draft_history

[Billsrhody]

I think its hard to argue that Polian is a problem in Indianapolis. All he has done is win with the Colts.. I dont see how you can fault him this year after (arguably) the best player in football is lost for the season. If Manning is healthy, this team has another 11-5 or 12-4 year and no one is complaining. When you have a player of that calliber how can you not build your team around him. True, their drafting has been sub par for several years now, but their teams have been in the playoffs consistently for the last decade.

 

Even Caldwell had been successful until he lost Manning, and I dont see how you can put the blame on him either.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

In addition, the Colts have not been drafting well recently… supposedly one of Bill Polian's strengths.

 

Yeah. Polian really whiffed on picking MANNING over the highly regarded Ryan Leaf...

I'd LOVE to see what the Pat's can do these days without Brady.

Let me help you out here a little bit, Tiger.

 

I said recently.

 

Manning was drafted 14 years ago.

 

The Patriots went 11-5 in 2008 when Brady was out for the season.

 

Any other questions?

 

 

 

[apuszczalowski]

I think its hard to argue that Polian is a problem in Indianapolis. All he has done is win with the Colts.. I dont see how you can fault him this year after (arguably) the best player in football is lost for the season. If Manning is healthy, this team has another 11-5 or 12-4 year and no one is complaining. When you have a player of that calliber how can you not build your team around him. True, their drafting has been sub par for several years now, but their teams have been in the playoffs consistently for the last decade.

 

Even Caldwell had been successful until he lost Manning, and I dont see how you can put the blame on him either.

All this year is showing is how much Polian and the Colts have relied on Manning, and how this team has been neglected because they have him. When Brady went down for the season in '08, Cassel stepped in and they still went 11-5. Manning was skeptical to even be able to start the season, and polian did nothing to address this until almost the last minute, and still won't do anything. Losing one player on a well built team should not take your team from playoff contenders to possible winless team, even if that player is Manning

[The Big Cat]

 

 

Manning is the ultimate money monger… compare his level of commercial endorsements to those of Brady who despite his model-looks and public recognition does almost no commercial endorsements at all. Manning was never gonna take less than all he could get and I don't blame him.

 

 

There's some truth to this. But also, PM is much much more media friendly than Brady. Brady downright sucks in front of the camera, PM not so much.

 

Also, under the rarest of circumstances, Brady (one of the top 5 NFL QB's) isn't the breadwinner in his relationship, his super model wife makes twice as much money as he does. So I'm not sure Tom's the altar boy in this scenario, given this oddity.

[Carmel Corn]

Living in the Indy area...you can see this eventually building over time.

 

1. QB - already discussed...no quality replacement on the roster in the event the franchise quarterback went down. Earlier in the year, Irsay tweeted about going to visit Favre....wish he actually did.

 

2. O-line - definitely a problem right now. Part of it is through loss of starters to other teams, but I think a BIG factor is the loss of Howard Mudd as coach. The Indy line was pretty lousy last year too after Mudd retired. The darn Eagles actually brought Mudd out of retirement this year.

 

3. No running game. James Addai has not been very effective and has been often hurt. No quality depth behind him.

 

4. Offensive coach - although Tom Moore is still on the roster, he is not the offensive coordinator. That job belongs to Clyde Christensen (who???)

 

5. Linebackers - a glaring weakness for multiple seasons. Gary Brackett is not a superstar, but is the best they have...and is hurt

 

Sure the injury bug is seemingly worse in other positions, but IMHO I am sorry to say that much of this collapse is self-inflicted.

[Bill from NYC]

So one has to ask the question:

 

Does building a team around a quarterback inevitably lead to a swift and mighty downfall. Is it an sustainable formula doomed to fail?

 

Aside from an elite quarterback's ability to hide weaknesses on your offense, he's also able to dictate what opposing teams have to do keep pace, thus giving and advantage to your defense.

 

Think of a great quarterback like PM as a team's deflector shields. Once they go down, it's a whole new ball game.

 

Also--and this might be an even bigger downside to building a team around a quarterback--the salary and compensation demands that a quarterback like PM puts on a franchise's payroll can hamstring the level of talent that might otherwise be brought in to create that supporting cast.

 

There's been a lot of talk in this thread and others about the consistent success of the Ravens teams built by Ozzie Newsome. Yet none of those teams, for all their wins, playoff appearances, etc. ever featured what anyone would consider an "elite" quarterback. The talent level was spread out and ultimately a better TEAM was built/sustained.

 

Likewise, in Pittsburgh, they happened upon Big Ben, but throughout that franchise's entire history, a history one could easily argue has been the most storied and successful in NFL history, the quarterback has not been the REASON for their success.

 

Now, back to Indianapolis.

 

Peyton Manning has sold a ton of tickets, a ton of jerseys and won a TON of regular season games. But for all the money he's made, all the notoriety he's brought to the franchise, and all the money he's cost them, there's only ONE Lombardi Trophy that has his fingerprints on it.

 

So for all you "Luck is the second coming of Christ" lemmings, and for all the people who clamored last year that Buffalo "NEEDS ITS FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!!", I ask again, what evidence is there that intentionally building a franchise around a quarterback has wielded the kind of success that doesn't result in an inevitable oh-****-reset moment somewhere down the line?

 

This was a very good post. I suppose the answer to your question depends upon what one as a fan wants.

 

PM is the only QB I have ever seen who could carry a football team to the extent that he did. Do you disagree? And, you wisely pointed out salary cap implications. They HAVE to take their toll in such circumstances.

The OP, in his eternal quest for a "consensus" on a football message board (what he means is that everyone must agree with his rather pedestrian views), calls Manning a "money grubber." This is, imo, a ridiculous tangent he is running with. PM won the Colts a superbowl with a good, not great team. He got them back, well into his thirties, with an average team.

 

Your question about whether it is the right move to build around a quarterback rates a seperate thread. We probably will not reach a "consensus," but I think it would bring out some great dialogue.