Andrew Luck - Contrarian Post

[Scraps]

i'd go just the opposite....rodgers was the understudy for 4 years to favre.....how much pressure is that ?.....go to a crap team with no offensive line and start immediately ??...now thats pressure.

 

How many Packer fans were happy with Rodgers when he replaced Favre? Looking back, it was obviously the right move but I know many Packer fans who wanted the Packers to lose every game in the 2008 season because management were a bunch of idiots for going with Rodgers over Favre.

 

Manning is probably held in higher esteem in Indy and across the league than Favre was in Green Bay.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Scraps

[BuffOrange]

I don't disagree -- IF you're 100% sure that what you're getting is a "sure thing," which as we all know is impossible. For every Rodgers and Manning there's a Leaf and Russell. Rodgers was hardly a sure thing when GB drafted him. The knock on Peyton was that he never won big games (yes, he since has proved that wrong). Personal statistics aside, I (personally) don't believe Rivers is in the same league as the other two. I don't believe he'll ever win a championship even though he's got all the talent around him to do so.

 

Context, please. Some of us were talking about giving up an entire draft for a No.1 one overall, so Russell and Leaf (#2 overall) came up. But I'll bite. I give you Alex Smith and Eli Manning -- both No. 1 overall picks. I don't recall either being a "huge headcase" or "lazy as anything." They both allegedly were "the second coming," and -- well, judge their pro careers for yourself.

 

Smith: Went 21-1 as a starter at Utah and scored a 40 on the Wonderlic and had a GPA of 3.75. He was dubbed a "can't miss prospect" by many. Before the draft, I can't tell you how many times I heard the words "sure thing" associated with Smith.

 

My God, you cannot possibly preach 'context' and pretend like Russel and Smith and Eli were as highly touted as Luck when they were coming out. They weren't and making up "second coming can't miss" quotes doesn't make it so. Nobody was saying stuff like they are the surest thing since Elway; nobody was suggesting teams should tank games the previous season to get them. Of course those guys had their supporters - they had to to be the #1 pick.

 

Now of course nobody knows if this guy will be as good as Elway and Peyton - the odds are very good that he won't be since they are ya know, probably 2 of the top 5 ever.

Interesting that you bring up Rivers - I think the "surest thing since Elway" line of thought refers to the low bust likelyhood and the very high probability that he'll be that sort of very good franchise QB. Even if he's 'only' that good he's well worth the #1 pick.

 

The illusion that Rivers has so much talent around him is exactly why he and his #'s are so impressive - he doesn't. His WR core has always been crap. He's had no running game the last two years (though this year it's better). Gates is obviously elite, but often injured in recent years. He's had some tough luck with Kaeding kicking like Norwood squared every postseason. But the idea that he can't win a championship is absurd. You might want to check Peyton's 2006 postseason #'s btw.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Yes BuffOrange.

 

I agree with you that it's very possible that Andrew Luck is the most highly rated/anticipated quarterback since John Elway.

 

It will be interesting to watch his career unfold.

[BillsfaninFl]

Why are we still talking about Luck? The Bills are already out of the running for him, by virtue of having four wins. The only way they could land him is to offer a blockbuster deal to the team with the top draft pick. And we all know that it would never happen.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Why are we still talking about Luck? The Bills are already out of the running for him, by virtue of having four wins. The only way they could land him is to offer a blockbuster deal to the team with the top draft pick. And we all know that it would never happen.

This thread wasn't about Luck becoming a Buffalo Bill.

 

It was about how good a player people here thought he might become.

 

 

[BuffaloRebound]

I think Luck is worthy of all the hype he's getting. Definitely nit-picking, but 2 things that might cause him to not live up to the hype in NFL are the difference between being a true student-athlete at Stanford and professional NFL QB. Guys at football factory schools are basically professionals already. Also, he seems to be a bit of a system QB. Stanford is a power-running team and Luck rarely gets in 3rd and long situations. Everything seems so controlled there and when he inevitably lands on a bad team, he doesn't have the physical tools or experience of a Cam Newton who had to make plays all the time.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think Luck is worthy of all the hype he's getting. Definitely nit-picking, but 2 things that might cause him to not live up to the hype in NFL are the difference between being a true student-athlete at Stanford and professional NFL QB. Guys at football factory schools are basically professionals already. Also, he seems to be a bit of a system QB. Stanford is a power-running team and Luck rarely gets in 3rd and long situations. Everything seems so controlled there and when he inevitably lands on a bad team, he doesn't have the physical tools or experience of a Cam Newton who had to make plays all the time.

Really good points.

[Wayne Cubed]

I think Luck is worthy of all the hype he's getting. Definitely nit-picking, but 2 things that might cause him to not live up to the hype in NFL are the difference between being a true student-athlete at Stanford and professional NFL QB. Guys at football factory schools are basically professionals already. Also, he seems to be a bit of a system QB. Stanford is a power-running team and Luck rarely gets in 3rd and long situations. Everything seems so controlled there and when he inevitably lands on a bad team, he doesn't have the physical tools or experience of a Cam Newton who had to make plays all the time.

 

Again, not to nit pick but Andrew Luck is the system. He calls his own plays. When it's a running play, he's the one calling it. When they don't huddle, he calls the play at the line based on what the defense gives him. They run a lot of the no huddle. A la Peyton Manning, Luck commands the offense.

 

Also he has been through 2 head coaches, so 2 types of "systems". Yet his play hasnt gone down.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Again, not to nit pick but Andrew Luck is the system. He calls his own plays. When it's a running play, he's the one calling it. When they don't huddle, he calls the play at the line based on what the defense gives him. They run a lot of the no huddle. A la Peyton Manning, Luck commands the offense.

 

Also he has been through 2 head coaches, so 2 types of "systems". Yet his play hasnt gone down.

FYI, Stanford Head Coach David Shaw was the Offensive Coordinator for every season that Jim Harbaugh was at Stanford.

 

So Luck has played in the same offense for all of his 3 seasons at Stanford.

 

 

[Wayne Cubed]

FYI, Stanford Head Coach David Shaw was the Offensive Coordinator for every season that Jim Harbaugh was at Stanford.

 

So Luck has played in the same offense for all of his 3 seasons at Stanford.

 

Thats why I put system in quotes, I know.

[T master]

I think as we are playing better this year that we are out of the top picks so thinking we have a chance at Luck is far fetched to say the least .

 

But there are a few out there that look pretty good OU QB Landry doesn't look like he would be a bad pick at this point & time but i have to watch more games to see what all he brings to the table .

[The AntiFin]

 

The illusion that Rivers has so much talent around him is exactly why he and his #'s are so impressive - he doesn't. His WR core has always been crap. He's had no running game the last two years (though this year it's better). Gates is obviously elite, but often injured in recent years. He's had some tough luck with Kaeding kicking like Norwood squared every postseason. But the idea that he can't win a championship is absurd. You might want to check Peyton's 2006 postseason #'s btw.

BuffOrange, I would LOVE to read your brilliant analysis on Rivers' performance today. He had two good RBs on the field in Mathews and Tolbert. He had his "money guy" Gates back. V-Jax? Check. Even Floyd made an acrobatic catch (which Jackson has been making all year because Rivers' accuracy has been AWFUL. Six touchdowns to seven INTs, if you care to debate that).

 

So, who are you going to blame today? The kicker? The officials? The defense, who scored a TD for him? Go for it. The fact is Rivers' wins this year have come against Minnesota, KC, Miami and Denver. That's quite an accomplishment.

 

I say again -- Rivers is an immature punk who does NOT have the heart to win a championship. He has a big mouth, but nothing to show for it through his eight years in the NFL. What's "absurd" -- other than your overall post, devoid of any facts or stats -- is any type of comparison to Peyton Manning. What an insult to a true, elite NFL QB.

 

Oh, and check out what others are saying about your hero here. They must have watched the same game I did. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/137414-how-good-are-the-jets/

[Sisyphean Bills]

In other news, the Colts are kicking themselves for drafting Peyton Manning.

[BuffOrange]

BuffOrange, I would LOVE to read your brilliant analysis on Rivers' performance today. He had two good RBs on the field in Mathews and Tolbert. He had his "money guy" Gates back. V-Jax? Check. Even Floyd made an acrobatic catch (which Jackson has been making all year because Rivers' accuracy has been AWFUL. Six touchdowns to seven INTs, if you care to debate that).

 

So, who are you going to blame today? The kicker? The officials? The defense, who scored a TD for him? Go for it. The fact is Rivers' wins this year have come against Minnesota, KC, Miami and Denver. That's quite an accomplishment.

 

I say again -- Rivers is an immature punk who does NOT have the heart to win a championship. He has a big mouth, but nothing to show for it through his eight years in the NFL. What's "absurd" -- other than your overall post, devoid of any facts or stats -- is any type of comparison to Peyton Manning. What an insult to a true, elite NFL QB.

 

Oh, and check out what others are saying about your hero here. They must have watched the same game I did. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/137414-how-good-are-the-jets/

 

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not going to make excuses for him today.

 

It's both clever and hilariously ironic that you emphasize/italicize eight years while waiting for him to have a bad game so you could bump this thread. Which do you want to value more - the eight years or the most recent game? Because if it's the eight years, you don't have a leg to stand on in relation to the "facts and stats" - those are readily available for anyone with an internet connection. Go to Football Outsiders, or Pro Football Reference, or a zillion other places (admittedly none of it will compare to the high level of factual content found in such places as a random TBD thread about the Jets). You will predictably ignore those "facts and stats" that you pretend to yearn for and go back to your petty emotional argument that he doesn't have "it" or "heart"; and all of that cliche talk radio trash that's been said about a billion and one quality athletes and coaches for not being able to win a ring - many of whom eventually won a ring.

[John from Riverside]

Bottom line.....he is gonna be a very good NFL QB and he might end up in our division.....

 

So we better draft accordingly

[ajzepp]

I've seen Luck play on about five or six occasions now, and there is one player he resembles quite a bit - Joey Harrington. He may end up being Peyton II, but until that time comes, he's Joey II to me!

[The AntiFin]

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not going to make excuses for him today.

How about making excuses for him this year? That would be a good start. By your own admission, he has a good team around him this year. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that he has 6 TDs and 7 INTs. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that his wins came against teams that are a combined 6-19. Refute those numbers, please.

 

It's both clever and hilariously ironic that you emphasize/italicize eight years while waiting for him to have a bad game so you could bump this thread.

I just gave you a chance to defend him this year. Go for it. I'll get to the other seven in a bit.

 

Which do you want to value more - the eight years or the most recent game?

I'll go with a pattern of poor playoff performances and this year's numbers. Remember, according to you, this is the only year he's got "decent players" around him. You conveniently forgot that LT and Gates likely will be first-ballot HOFers. You apparently have no concept of the importance of a dominant runner in the passing game. But I digress -- According to you, LT was a "crap player." And according to you, SD's defense -- which through most of Phillips' tenure was "lights out" -- doesn't help a QB win or pad his numbers.

 

Because if it's the eight years, you don't have a leg to stand on in relation to the "facts and stats" - those are readily available for anyone with an internet connection. Go to Football Outsiders, or Pro Football Reference, or a zillion other places...

I highly recommend you follow your own advice and visit these sites. (I chose NFL.com, but thanks). What will you find? You'll find LT's stats (84 rushing TDs; 9 receiving TDs, 2005-2009). Then, of course, you'd have to man up and admit that a dominant runner like LT could *gasp* open up a passing game for virtually any QB in the NFL. Piggybacking off of that, let's take a look at Gates' stats (68 TDs, 2005-2011). Now, V. Jackson's numbers (31 TDs, 2006-2011). I'm only bringing up Jackson because you said he had "crap players" around him for his entire career, except for this year -- which we've already established is not going very well for him. According to you, LT's play and Jackson's play had nothing to do with Rivers' individual stats. Okaaaaaaaaay...

 

You will predictably ignore those "facts and stats" that you pretend to yearn for and go back to your petty emotional argument that he doesn't have "it" or "heart"...

Yup, I haven't posted a single stat here to back up my theory that Rivers is mediocre at best. You're right again! Let's look at Rivers' playoff "facts and stats," shall we?

• Appearances: 7
  
• Record: 3-4
  
• TDs: 8
  
• INTs: 9
  

Want more stats? Cool. Let's go over his individual playoff games, shall we?

• Game 1 (Loss, 24-21 vs. New England): 14-32, 230 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 2 (Win, 17-6 vs. Tennessee): 19-30, 292 YD, 1TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 3 (Win, 28-24 vs. Indianapolis): 14-19, 264 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 4 (Loss, 21-12 vs. New England): 19-37, 211 YD, 0 TD, 2 INT
  
• Game 5 (Win, 23-17 vs. Indianapolis): 20-36, 217 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 6 (Loss, 35-24 vs. Pittsburgh): 21-35, 308 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 7 (Loss, 17-14 vs. NYJ): 27-40, 298 YD, 1 TD, 2 INT
  

To recap: Three games without a TD. One "excellent" game (against Pittsburgh). The others were "meh."

 

Now, why do I say Rivers has no heart? He doesn't show up when it counts, like Tony Romo. Why do I call Rivers a "punk?" Well, there are no stats to back this up. He's a whiny biatch on the field when things don't go his way. He did it all game yesterday -- whining to the refs. I'll never forget THIS from 2007:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSpYLU7Ig0

 

It has become obvious that you don't realize (or that you fail to acknowledge) football is a team sport, and, moreso, that having outstanding positional players can work wonders for a QB's individual statistics. Keep your individual stats -- I want a leader. Rivers is not a leader.

 

Maybe -- just maybe -- he learned a thing or two from Drew Brees while they were both in San Diego. Yeah, THAT Drew Brees. The one with the ring. The one the Chargers tossed aside for Rivers.

[BuffOrange]

How about making excuses for him this year? That would be a good start. By your own admission, he has a good team around him this year. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that he has 6 TDs and 7 INTs. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that his wins came against teams that are a combined 6-19. Refute those numbers, please.

 

 

I just gave you a chance to defend him this year. Go for it. I'll get to the other seven in a bit.

 

 

I'll go with a pattern of poor playoff performances and this year's numbers. Remember, according to you, this is the only year he's got "decent players" around him. You conveniently forgot that LT and Gates likely will be first-ballot HOFers. You apparently have no concept of the importance of a dominant runner in the passing game. But I digress -- According to you, LT was a "crap player." And according to you, SD's defense -- which through most of Phillips' tenure was "lights out" -- doesn't help a QB win or pad his numbers.

 

 

I highly recommend you follow your own advice and visit these sites. (I chose NFL.com, but thanks). What will you find? You'll find LT's stats (84 rushing TDs; 9 receiving TDs, 2005-2009). Then, of course, you'd have to man up and admit that a dominant runner like LT could *gasp* open up a passing game for virtually any QB in the NFL. Piggybacking off of that, let's take a look at Gates' stats (68 TDs, 2005-2011). Now, V. Jackson's numbers (31 TDs, 2006-2011). I'm only bringing up Jackson because you said he had "crap players" around him for his entire career, except for this year -- which we've already established is not going very well for him. According to you, LT's play and Jackson's play had nothing to do with Rivers' individual stats. Okaaaaaaaaay...

 

 

Yup, I haven't posted a single stat here to back up my theory that Rivers is mediocre at best. You're right again! Let's look at Rivers' playoff "facts and stats," shall we?

• Appearances: 7
  
• Record: 3-4
  
• TDs: 8
  
• INTs: 9
  

Want more stats? Cool. Let's go over his individual playoff games, shall we?

• Game 1 (Loss, 24-21 vs. New England): 14-32, 230 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 2 (Win, 17-6 vs. Tennessee): 19-30, 292 YD, 1TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 3 (Win, 28-24 vs. Indianapolis): 14-19, 264 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 4 (Loss, 21-12 vs. New England): 19-37, 211 YD, 0 TD, 2 INT
  
• Game 5 (Win, 23-17 vs. Indianapolis): 20-36, 217 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 6 (Loss, 35-24 vs. Pittsburgh): 21-35, 308 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 7 (Loss, 17-14 vs. NYJ): 27-40, 298 YD, 1 TD, 2 INT
  

To recap: Three games without a TD. One "excellent" game (against Pittsburgh). The others were "meh."

 

Now, why do I say Rivers has no heart? He doesn't show up when it counts, like Tony Romo. Why do I call Rivers a "punk?" Well, there are no stats to back this up. He's a whiny biatch on the field when things don't go his way. He did it all game yesterday -- whining to the refs. I'll never forget THIS from 2007:

 

youtube.com/watch?v=LsSpYLU7Ig0

 

It has become obvious that you don't realize (or that you fail to acknowledge) football is a team sport, and, moreso, that having outstanding positional players can work wonders for a QB's individual statistics. Keep your individual stats -- I want a leader. Rivers is not a leader.

 

Maybe -- just maybe -- he learned a thing or two from Drew Brees while they were both in San Diego. Yeah, THAT Drew Brees. The one with the ring. The one the Chargers tossed aside for Rivers.

 

I fully realize it's a team sport. How else would the SB winning '06 Colts win their first two playoff games with 1 TD and 5 ints from Manning? Or are those gem box scores not available on nfl.com? Oh that's right, you only believe in stats when it suits you - how convenient! That explains why Rivers' reg season #'s from '06-'10 don't count for anything (because darnit, not everyone has the luxuary of throwing to Legedu Naanee!) and suddenly now we care about the first 6 games of regular seasons when we never did before. Well as long as you're consistent...

 

LT was a monster in his prime and that helped - I don't remember saying otherwise but if you can quote me saying otherwise instead of making up your own quotes be my guest (also note that his prime years were over by 2008).

No clue what point you're trying to make in posting Vincent Jackson's stats. #1 WR's usually have good #'s in good passing offenses with good QBs. SD letting him hold out for 11 games and then franchising him instead of offering a long-term deal ought to tell you something.

 

Since I have an open mind and am not strangely obsessed with an NCSt/SD QB as you seem to be, I'm actually going to agree that he comes across as whiney sometimes. I would think his teammates care more about him gutting out a playoff game on a broken leg as it pertains to his 'leadership' but I'm not in the locker room as you seem to be so who knows..

 

Love the overreaction that football generates with all this time in between games. I just wish archives were easier to search because some of this stuff would provide great comic relief years later. Are you one of the guys who was arguing vehemently with me in '06 when Big Ben was having a bad year that he was being exposed as a fraud and that he would never amount to anything without Jerome Bettis and Antowain Randle El? Maybe you've just changed your screen name....

Edited October 24, 2011 by BuffOrange

[The AntiFin]

I fully realize it's a team sport. How else would the SB winning '06 Colts win their first two playoff games with 1 TD and 5 ints from Manning? Or are those gem box scores not available on nfl.com?

You asked for stats on Rivers. I gave you stats on Rivers -- and his supporting cast. You didn't like what you read -- so now you're replying with my lack of stats on Manning? Weak.

 

Oh that's right, you only believe in stats when it suits you - how convenient!

I believe in stats when they count... You know, games that matter. Showing up for those games makes a QB elite. I never denied that Rivers' individual regular-season stats were good. I pointed out that two HOFers in that offense -- and a stellar defense -- helped pad those numbers. If you don't see that -- wow.

 

That explains why Rivers' reg season #'s from '06-'10 don't count for anything (because darnit, not everyone has the luxuary of throwing to Legedu Naanee!)

If you're just going to throw stuff out without doing research, I'll respond in kind. You're referring to a no-name wide receiver who had a couple of good games -- last year (one year). That's your argument? Really?

 

...and suddenly now we care about the first 6 games of regular seasons when we never did before.

Do you even read what you type? Go back to your original post in this thread. You wrote that Rivers was surrounded by "crap players" until this year. I would say that makes "this year" relevant. So what's his excuse this year?

 

LT was a monster in his prime and that helped (also note that his prime years were over by 2008).

Yeah, he only scored 24 TDs for the Chargers in 2008 and 2009. He sucked. That didn't help open up the passing game one bit.

 

No clue what point you're trying to make in posting Vincent Jackson's stats. #1 WR's usually have good #'s in good passing offenses with good QBs.

Quite simple. In your original post, you wrote, "His WR core has always been crap." Therefore, you believe Jackson is "crap." Short memory, huh?

 

SD letting him hold out for 11 games and then franchising him instead of offering a long-term deal ought to tell you something.

Doesn't tell me nearly as much as them letting Brees go. San Diego's front office is a joke, and Jackson has made some unbelievably acrobatic catches all season because Rivers has been so inaccurate. Look at the film if you don't want to look at the stats.

 

Since I have an open mind and am not strangely obsessed with an NCSt/SD QB as you seem to be...

That's strange. You're the one who jumped on this thread and called my theory on Rivers "absurd." I obviously hit a nerve. I started posting here to offer my perspective on trading a whole draft for Luck. The OP of that segment actually backed up his arguments, and it was a pleasure debating him.

 

I would think his teammates care more about him gutting out a playoff game on a broken leg as it pertains to his 'leadership' but I'm not in the locker room as you seem to be so who knows.

Actually, you seemingly are the one who knows everyone in the world. Remember this from your first response? "My God, you cannot possibly preach 'context' and pretend like Russel and Smith and Eli were as highly touted as Luck when they were coming out. They weren't and making up "second coming can't miss" quotes doesn't make it so." Apparently you know everything everyone in the world said.

 

Manning: To quote from Mel Kiper's column from February 18, 2004: http://proxy.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=1739775. In case you don't have Insider Access, the subtitle reads, "This year's crop of can't-miss prospects is seven deep, while the Bengals, Dolphins and Broncos should be able to fill needs later in the first round." In that column, Kiper states, "The drop-off this year occurs after six or seven players. It looks like the first six picks right now will be QB Eli Manning, WR Larry Fitzgerald, QB Ben Roethlisberger, OT Robert Gallery, TE Kellen Winslow Jr. and S Sean Taylor." Not only is it written, he said it ad nauseum on draft day.

 

Russell: Kiper compared him to John Elway on draft day 2007. YUP. Someone said it.

 

For the record, I can't stand Kiper. He's amusing -- and not in a good way. But I have no problem using his quotes to refute your point that nobody was calling Eli and Russell "can't miss." Hell, I didn't even remember the Russell/Elway comparison till I watched the clip.

 

Are you one of the guys who was arguing vehemently with me in '06 when Big Ben was having a bad year that he was being exposed as a fraud and that he would never amount to anything without Jerome Bettis and Antowain Randle El? Maybe you've just changed your screen name....

No. But thanks for establishing the fact that you have a pattern of argumentative posts. For the record, I was pissed that the Steelers took him two spots ahead of where we drafted that year.

 

Now, on the off-chance that you want to debate the ORIGINAL topic of this post -- The Cardinal has one of the best teams in school history this year. On Saturday, they had five rushing scores. I'm not saying Luck stinks. He's a great college football player. I'm sticking to my original point that there is no way I'd trade a whole draft for him. To take it a step further, if he is drafted by the Dolphins, he will suck for many years. If he winds up in Indy -- he'll be okay, but not great. If he goes to a contender, he has the chance to be elite. But I don't think he's worth all of the hype he's getting. I'd be happy to revisit this three years in to his pro career and admit I was wrong -- If I am.

[Orton's Arm]

How about making excuses for him this year? That would be a good start. By your own admission, he has a good team around him this year. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that he has 6 TDs and 7 INTs. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that his wins came against teams that are a combined 6-19. Refute those numbers, please.

 

 

I just gave you a chance to defend him this year. Go for it. I'll get to the other seven in a bit.

 

 

I'll go with a pattern of poor playoff performances and this year's numbers. Remember, according to you, this is the only year he's got "decent players" around him. You conveniently forgot that LT and Gates likely will be first-ballot HOFers. You apparently have no concept of the importance of a dominant runner in the passing game. But I digress -- According to you, LT was a "crap player." And according to you, SD's defense -- which through most of Phillips' tenure was "lights out" -- doesn't help a QB win or pad his numbers.

 

 

I highly recommend you follow your own advice and visit these sites. (I chose NFL.com, but thanks). What will you find? You'll find LT's stats (84 rushing TDs; 9 receiving TDs, 2005-2009). Then, of course, you'd have to man up and admit that a dominant runner like LT could *gasp* open up a passing game for virtually any QB in the NFL. Piggybacking off of that, let's take a look at Gates' stats (68 TDs, 2005-2011). Now, V. Jackson's numbers (31 TDs, 2006-2011). I'm only bringing up Jackson because you said he had "crap players" around him for his entire career, except for this year -- which we've already established is not going very well for him. According to you, LT's play and Jackson's play had nothing to do with Rivers' individual stats. Okaaaaaaaaay...

 

 

Yup, I haven't posted a single stat here to back up my theory that Rivers is mediocre at best. You're right again! Let's look at Rivers' playoff "facts and stats," shall we?

• Appearances: 7
  
• Record: 3-4
  
• TDs: 8
  
• INTs: 9
  

Want more stats? Cool. Let's go over his individual playoff games, shall we?

• Game 1 (Loss, 24-21 vs. New England): 14-32, 230 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 2 (Win, 17-6 vs. Tennessee): 19-30, 292 YD, 1TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 3 (Win, 28-24 vs. Indianapolis): 14-19, 264 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 4 (Loss, 21-12 vs. New England): 19-37, 211 YD, 0 TD, 2 INT
  
• Game 5 (Win, 23-17 vs. Indianapolis): 20-36, 217 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 6 (Loss, 35-24 vs. Pittsburgh): 21-35, 308 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT
  
• Game 7 (Loss, 17-14 vs. NYJ): 27-40, 298 YD, 1 TD, 2 INT
  

To recap: Three games without a TD. One "excellent" game (against Pittsburgh). The others were "meh."

 

Now, why do I say Rivers has no heart? He doesn't show up when it counts, like Tony Romo. Why do I call Rivers a "punk?" Well, there are no stats to back this up. He's a whiny biatch on the field when things don't go his way. He did it all game yesterday -- whining to the refs. I'll never forget THIS from 2007:

 

youtube.com/watch?v=LsSpYLU7Ig0

 

It has become obvious that you don't realize (or that you fail to acknowledge) football is a team sport, and, moreso, that having outstanding positional players can work wonders for a QB's individual statistics. Keep your individual stats -- I want a leader. Rivers is not a leader.

 

Maybe -- just maybe -- he learned a thing or two from Drew Brees while they were both in San Diego. Yeah, THAT Drew Brees. The one with the ring. The one the Chargers tossed aside for Rivers.

You express yourself well, and posts like yours elevate the quality of these boards. However, there are some points you've made with which I do not fully agree.

 

You wrote that a good defense can boost a QB's stats. A good test of this theory is Trent Dilfer, who had one of the three best defenses in NFL history. In 1997, '98, and '99, his average yards per attempt was 6.6, 6.4, and 6.6 respectively, while playing for Tampa Bay. Then when he was paired with that Ravens defense of 2000, his average yards per attempt jumped to . . . 6.6. While with the Ravens, he had a very good running game in the form of Jamal Lewis, and a good TE in Shannon Sharpe.

 

The Ravens released him after that Super Bowl win, so he went to Seattle. In 2001 and 2002, his average yards per attempt was 8.3 and 7.0 respectively. He then became a backup in 2003.

 

The Dilfer example seems to suggest that a good defense does almost nothing to boost a QB's stats, and that a good running game might have less of an impact on those stats than many believe.