Marcell Dareus vs. AJ Green

[BRAWNDO]

I only two offensive positions I would take that high are QB and LT. Most WRs take two to three years to realize their full potential and make a significant impact. Look at Matt Millen when he was with the Lions, he took a lot of WRs with his top five picks and all it got him was the ability to do it again the next year. (Yes he finally got it right with Calvin Johnson) Dareus has made a difference on the Bills D he was the right choice.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I wanted Peterson or green over dareus. At this very early stage in their careers id rank their performance green, dareus, Peterson.

My ideal would have been Peterson at 3 then trade up 5 spots to bottom of rd1 and get wilkerson. I'd take That combo over dareus and Williams in a heart beat.

On a yardage basis one cannot make the argument our defense is better. But it is creating more turnovers, partly due to pressure up front, which Dareus gets some credit for. I think his play will only get better (for one needs to stop over pursuing and taking himself out of plays) and if healthy he'll be a productive starter for a decade with maybe a couple pro bowl appearances. Which makes him a good pick. But better than green or Peterson? Only time will tell.

Now it's getting a bit interesting.

 

This year's draft had lots of good D-linemen. I personally loved Cam Jordan and Cam Heyward. But Fairley, Bowers, Clayborne, Wilkerson are all excellent prospects. And that's not even mentioning pass rushers like Aldon Smith (my fave) or the more consensus fave, Robert Quinn.

 

In a trade down scenario, I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Bills could have still gotten a premier player and another pick in the low first, high second round.

 

When you add the element of trade-downs (for the Bills picking high) to the conversation there are a lot of compelling hypotheticals.

 

I specifically think of Muhammad Wilkerson as an exceedingly excellent value at pick #30. Wilkerson is gonna be a total stud IMO and the drop off in talent/production from Dareus (who I love) to Wilkerson is how much? Then when you consider that the Bills might have been able to get another player in the top 10 AND possibly Wilkerson… or perhaps someone like Jabbal Sheard, who I also think is awesome…

 

I only two offensive positions I would take that high are QB and LT. Most WRs take two to three years to realize their full potential and make a significant impact. Look at Matt Millen when he was with the Lions, he took a lot of WRs with his top five picks and all it got him was the ability to do it again the next year. (Yes he finally got it right with Calvin Johnson) Dareus has made a difference on the Bills D he was the right choice.

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams are nowhere near in the same class as AJ Green.

 

The thing that makes this conversation legit is that AJ Green is a pretty fair replication of Calvin Johnson. Not saying he's as good but I don't think he's far behind… point being that we're not talking "just any" first round wideout… in Green we're talking about an elite talent… a guy who if he stays healthy and fulfills his natural talent could be a HOF player.

 

In AJ Green, we're not talking about Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant or Michael Crabtree, IMO. It's a different conversation.

Edited October 14, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[BaaadThingsMan]

Love Dareus

[ColdBlueNorth]

You can stop reading all you want but in 2010 the Bills opponents averaged 4.8 yards per carry. So far in 2011 the Bills opponents are averaging 5.5 yards per carry. Does that sound like a major improvement to you? I know stats don't tell everything and I think the run defense has improved some (which has exposed our weak pass defense) but be real, our defense hasn't been great with the only exception being turnovers that have kept us in games that otherwise our defense would have lost for us. Anyone who says that our defense has been playing at a playoff level isn't being very honest with themselves and is letting their heart overthink their head.

 

 

I agree somewhat, but disagree with a lot of this and would want to emphasize that turnovers are caused by pressure, or by that lack-luster defense ripping the ball out of a receivers hands

 

Our defense has been able to make most teams one dimensional at key times, but has been gashed by the big play hence the skewed yards/carry. I am not sure where I would rank this defense, it does need to improve and be more consistent, especially in the second half of games, but there are a lot of injuries out there so I am not sure how they would perform with all the right pieces on the field and healthy. Regardless, Dareus is the real deal. Even as a rookie he has been the most steady, consistent performer on the defensive line with Kelsey hurt and out, and Kyle Williams nursing an injured foot since training camp, and Merriman nursing a bad shoulder, there's our rookie who shows up each game and takes on those double-teams often pushing them right back into the QBs lap, or splitting them (man I wish the NFL still called holding), and also shedding blocks to plug up the run. When he isn't doing that he is batting and tipping passes to buy us a win. I am still waiting on Troup to show us some of what he had in training camp, he needs to start earning some of those NFL checks. From everything I read early in the year he was a big part of the D-Line rotation plans.

 

I agree that our pass defense ranking last year was a mirage, only an idiot would have passed on us when you could run for 200+ yards each game. This year teams are finding that they have to pass more, if not to catch up to our offense they have to pass because our defense was able to put them in a 3rd and long situation. We are finding that with McGee out and the rookie Aaron Williams out the team has had to rely more on McKelvin and Corner and both of those guys have the penchant to give up the big play. I really wish we could have kept Williams healthy and on the field. I think he could develop into a great corner and missing these games is really going to slow down that process.

 

Is this defense playoff calibre yet? Heck no, but they could become that good - I sincerely believe we have not seen this group peak as a group and play their best football. Some of that is due to injuries, some of that is simply due to the fact that there are a lot of new guys playing together, but I am hoping they peak at the right time for us this year.

[RyanC883]

We're 31% (or 26% percent depending on how ambitious you're feeling) of the way into the season. It's a good time to reflect on first round draft pick performance.

 

Not to be too revisionist here, but does anyone wish (even a teeny weeny bit) that we would have drafted AJ Green? I mean, at a minimum, wouldn't it be a wash - in that he would have had an equal offensive impact as Mr. Dareus has had defensively?

 

With that said, how often do truly stud, impactful, game-changing Wide Receivers surface? Once every 3-4 years I'd guess. What about DTs, similarly described? Once a year, me thinks.

 

Watching Calvin Johnson outrun a cover-two last night makes one salivate at the possibility of a big, strong, fast, receiver (he is the only receiver that I have ever seen outrun a cover-two btw). He can almost single-handedly impact the ebb and the flow of any one game (assuming someone is throwing to him).

 

Ultimately, I think Sir Dareus was the best choice, the right pick, and the best fit for this team. What say you?

 

A good question. And for most teams one woth serisouly debating. BUT, for the Bills, Dareus is a beast, he tips passes at the line of scrimmage, and gives our somewhat weak D some serious muscle in the middle. The Bills don't need as many "big name" or "top" WR's because of the schemes that Gailey can run. Remember Yancy Thigpen in Pittsburgh. Guy was a stud with Gailey. Now look at Jones and Nelson, same thing. If we can get Lloyd or Wayne for 2-3 more years we can draft a WR in a later round. Calvin Johnson is great, no doubt, but the Lions had to shore up their D-line before he was really a factor in winning games.

[Dragonborn10]

No, not in the least.

 

I watched AJ Green his entire college career. I knew how good he'd be. Dareus is still the correct pick there every single time.

 

WRs can be found later in the draft, or even undrafted. Getting TOP TIER talent in the middle of your DL is as important as it gets. Especially for the worst Run D in the league.

 

No to AJ Green.

No to Patrick Peterson.

 

YES MARCEL DAREUS!

Right and top tier D-lineman can't be found later in the draft...

 

Kyle William 5th round, #134

[billsfreak]

I agree somewhat, but disagree with a lot of this and would want to emphasize that turnovers are caused by pressure, or by that lack-luster defense ripping the ball out of a receivers hands

 

Our defense has been able to make most teams one dimensional at key times, but has been gashed by the big play hence the skewed yards/carry. I am not sure where I would rank this defense, it does need to improve and be more consistent, especially in the second half of games, but there are a lot of injuries out there so I am not sure how they would perform with all the right pieces on the field and healthy. Regardless, Dareus is the real deal. Even as a rookie he has been the most steady, consistent performer on the defensive line with Kelsey hurt and out, and Kyle Williams nursing an injured foot since training camp, and Merriman nursing a bad shoulder, there's our rookie who shows up each game and takes on those double-teams often pushing them right back into the QBs lap, or splitting them (man I wish the NFL still called holding), and also shedding blocks to plug up the run. When he isn't doing that he is batting and tipping passes to buy us a win. I am still waiting on Troup to show us some of what he had in training camp, he needs to start earning some of those NFL checks. From everything I read early in the year he was a big part of the D-Line rotation plans.

 

I agree that our pass defense ranking last year was a mirage, only an idiot would have passed on us when you could run for 200+ yards each game. This year teams are finding that they have to pass more, if not to catch up to our offense they have to pass because our defense was able to put them in a 3rd and long situation. We are finding that with McGee out and the rookie Aaron Williams out the team has had to rely more on McKelvin and Corner and both of those guys have the penchant to give up the big play. I really wish we could have kept Williams healthy and on the field. I think he could develop into a great corner and missing these games is really going to slow down that process.

 

Is this defense playoff calibre yet? Heck no, but they could become that good - I sincerely believe we have not seen this group peak as a group and play their best football. Some of that is due to injuries, some of that is simply due to the fact that there are a lot of new guys playing together, but I am hoping they peak at the right time for us this year.

I only posted that in reply to someone disagreeing with me that our run defense wasn't much better than last year, and he/she seemed to think it was greatly improved, when in fact it isn't.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Easier to find WR than stud DL line guy. Dareus is just what we needed. Guy is a beast, Can not be moved or run on.

[symbiant]

Detroit took WR's in the first round for several years in a row and were awful.

Then they (and we) started drafting DL in the first round, and magically now things are turning things around.

Hmmm

[Orton's Arm]

To assess last year's draft picks 5 weeks into their first season is beyond ridiculous.

It's clearly far too early to make statements like, "Dareus will be better/worse as a DE than AJ Green is as a WR." The OP didn't make such statements, and doesn't deserve to have his post described as "beyond ridiculous."

 

But it isn't too early to say that Dareus looks like he'll be a very special DE, just as Green looks like he'll be a very special WR. Based on that, it is reasonable to ask whether the Bills would have been better off adding a special WR or a special DE to their team.

 

I know that most fans (including me) place a high value on having strong lines. I see this as both a) based on sound football fundamentals, and b) a reasonable response to the Bills' inadequacies on the lines, and especially the OL. Only twice in the last 40 years have the Bills used their first draft pick on an OT, as compared to 10 times for a RB, and 10 times for a DB. Drafting like that is a good way to lose football games.

 

But even if we're right in thinking that an elite DE is more valuable than an elite WR, it's good to reexamine that (and our other opinions) from time to time just to be sure they're right. This is what the OP challenges us to do, and it's one of the reasons why football discussion boards exist in the first place.

 

In Arizona, the Cardinals achieved a very good offense with a Hall of Fame-level QB (Kurt Warner), a very good receiving corps led by Larry Fitzgerald, and a mediocre offensive line. I maintain that the mediocre OL was a real problem, and gave defenses a ready-made way to negate the Cardinals' strengths at QB and WR. But suppose the Cardinals had been able to upgrade their OL from "mediocre" to "good, but not great." What would their offense have looked like then?

 

If the Bills had made AJ Green into our Larry Fitzgerald and Stevie Johnson into our Anquan Boldin, the receiving corps would have been very, very good. Whenever the Bills lined up in a four WR set, it would have been very difficult for the other teams' third and fourth best DBs to match up against the Bills' third and fourth best WRs. Any DBs asked to single cover either Green or Johnson would not have laughed at the easiness of the task!

 

Had the Bills drafted Green, they might have had a receiving corps comparable to or better than the Cardinals' WRs during the Warner era. The Bills could also have had the better OL, especially if they make a judicious addition or two in the 2012 draft. They would also have had much better RBs, in the form of Jackson and Spiller. The main downside is that Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't Kurt Warner.

 

I personally would have chosen Dareus over Green. But passing up the chance to take Green would have been a very, very painful thing to do!

[thewildrabbit]

Mike Mayock ranked MD as the best player in the draft. and he looks to be a steal over Miller. So I doubt the Bills will never have any regrets with him over AJ Green.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Mike Mayock ranked MD as the best player in the draft. and he looks to be a steal over Miller. So I doubt the Bills will never have any regrets with him over AJ Green.

I love MD and wanted him all along. I would pick him over Miller 9 out of 10 times but to say he's a steal over Miller? Miller has looked pretty good so far I wouldn't say he was a steal

Edited October 14, 2011 by Hazed and Amuzed

[Turbosrrgood]

I liked Green, I got a Calvin Johnson type of vibe out of him. Still, Dareus was the right pick. I don't think we are 4-1 without him. He has been a big part of us stopping the run, and has provided plenty of pressure as well. At the beginning of the season it seemed like we had decent WR depth, so it's easy to look back now and say we needed a WR.

 

We traded Evans, Easley went on IR, as well as parrish and now Jones is hurt(although he didn't look like #2 material to me). So sure we could use a receiver now, but the defensive line needs were glaring at draft time. I stand by my opinion after the draft that we got the best overall player (Yeah, Newton is making a bid too...).

 

I love MD and wanted him all along. I would pick him over Miller 9 out of 10 times but to say he's a steal over Miller? Miller has looked pretty good so far I wouldn't say he was a steal

 

Miller also got benched due to poor play...He's a solid pass rusher, but not a complete player at this time...

Edited October 14, 2011 by Turbosrrgood

[Hazed and Amuzed]

 

Miller also got benched due to poor play...He's a solid pass rusher, but not a complete player at this time...

I know but for a rookie LB to have 5 sacks, 2 passes defended and 2 ff in their first 5 games isn't enough to say that anyone was a steal over him

[Turbosrrgood]

I know but for a rookie LB to have 5 sacks, 2 passes defended and 2 ff in their first 5 games isn't enough to say that anyone was a steal over him

 

Yeah I wouldn't say that either and didn't mean to imply that, I was very much in favor of Darues over Miller but he has proved his worth as a pass rusher...

 

I was simply adding some additional info after your comment.

[billsfan89]

AJ Green is a stud for sure. But I think Dareus who is a 21 year old defensive stud (Will be 22 in November) will in the long run just be of more value. Dareus has been a rock for the defense and I think of him in the same sense as a in his prime Richard Seymour. Seymour controlled the edge and brought pressure off of it for years for the Pats*. I think Dareus is that type of player for us.

 

Green is a playmaker for sure but just the type of player Dareus is has more value than Green.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Mike Mayock ranked MD as the best player in the draft. and he looks to be a steal over Miller. So I doubt the Bills will never have any regrets with him over AJ Green.

Mike Mayock said that Robert Ayers would be the best defensive player to come out of the 2009 Draft.

 

Mayock's been wrong on a lot of players and regardless, his pre-draft opinion is immaterial in this discussion.

 

The basis for this discussion is how our opinions may have evolved now that we've seen these players in the NFL for 5 weeks.

 

[Juror#8]

We're now almost 65% of the way into the season. Any epiphanies, clarifications, changes-of-mind, or simply new thoughts on the matter?

 

Cliff's notes of my post below - I'm not sure there has even been a quantifiable difference on defense from last year, but I believe that there would have been a difference on offense with Green. We're light year's away from a good defense. We're maybe a piece or two away from a potent offense. The "win now" crowd may think that Green was the better option.

 

Me - I still like the pick....a lot! He is a force on the line. He definitely needs some help around him. I'll admit that he has been underwhelming at times. I know he is only 10 games in...but sometimes he seems kinda flash-in-the-pan-ish. I realize that this will rub the "Line Enthusiasts" the wrong way. But a spade is a spade.

 

With that said, and seeing as how we have local intramural players starting at WR, I couldn't be mad in retrospect about an AJ Green pick. This is not "he *must* be better because he is shown on ESPN highlights" commentary. It is based on what I feel would have been impactful this year for this team.

 

The d-line has still been a sieve. The run defense has still been trash. There is little push in the middle. This despite Dareus being the pick. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S ALL HIS FAULT. IN FACT, HE IS DOING EVERYTHING THAT HE CAN TO MAINTAIN DIGNITY FOR THE LINE. He needs help in order for his potential to be fully realized. The injuries have hurt. That is well understood.

 

My point is that with Green we would have had an offense that wasn't so one dimesional. Maybe we could have continued to win shoot-outs....at least. Right now (though we have a defensive stud) we have an impressively BAD defense AND an anemic offense to boot.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Juror#8

[dpberr]

I think Dareus is this generation's Warren Sapp. Dareus will be an absolutely dominant lineman with reinforcements behind him. I wouldn't change the pick.

[Max997]

if you are going to compare picks it should really be Dareus and Williams vs Green and Dalton

 

I know we needed and still need corners but I was never in favor of drafting Williams or any other corner in round 2...i really wanted a pass rusher or LB