Blaming the Defense and Defensive Playcalling

[The Big Cat]

Watched the game again last night:

 

Bottomline: the offense DID put the game away in the third quarter with a 17 play 9 and a half minute drive that ended with a FG and went into the fourth quarter.

 

Bottomline: the defense then forced a three and out and gave them the ball right back

 

Bottomline: The offense was then moving the ball at will until on third and ONE, with about eight minutes to go, we got the Stevie drop.

 

THEN the wheels came off.

 

That play WAS the game changer. Yes, our guys have to be more mentally tough on both sides of the ball to overcome what ensued, but at that point in the game, the cincy d was gassed. We had the ball, a seven point lead, we were marching, we were CRUSHING the clock, and there's no doubt in my mind we end that drive with a score, giving the bengals less than four minutes to flip a ten or fourteen point deficit.

 

Now were looking at a 23-13 or 27-13 scenario with less than four minutes in the game, an inevitability negated by a SINGLE call most questionable.

 

Being that close to a sure handed victory, who among us can look at that and arrive to the same doomsday scenario wrt our d?

 

Btw, our d DID actually look tough on the bengals drive to tie it 20-20 The Bengals just made some great plays. They're pros too, ya know.

 

Bump...haven't seen this addressed elsewhere...

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I agree with you, Big Cat.

 

Yes, a better team than our Bills might have overcome the blown call on the 3rd and 1 but the Bills were actually tightening the noose on that drive and the previous, clock-eating, field goal drive. And yes, as you pointed out, the Bills D got a big stop on the previous drive.

 

That call was Cinci's last lifeline… and to their credit, they took advantage.

 

I think Cincinnati is simply a much better team than 95% of fans/media realize right now. Several of their big pass plays were simply unstoppable (the one-handed TD catch by Gresham).

 

A small group of NFL observers think Cinci has the best defensive front 7 in the game particularly when accounting for their reserves where there's no drop-off in talent from their starters. They have one of the best O-lines in football. Cedric Benson is one of the most villified and maligned backs in the NFL which doesn't diminish from the fact that he's a big, fast, physical runner who is hard to stop.

 

AJ Green is a slightly smaller version of Calvin Johnson. Jermaine Gresham is an elite talent. Andy Dalton looks excellent for a rookie QB and Rey Maualuga gave ample ammunition to those here who wanted the Bills to draft him. He played half the game in the Bills backfield simply through recognizing run plays.

 

I think part of the reaction to the Bills loss at Cinci has to do with a lack of appreciation for how good Cinci has become.

[WildBills]

The Bills' defense is terrible. What games are you watching?

[3rdand12]

the Bills defense is incredibly exciting and winning games. Go George Edwards! I saw him screaming happy with one of our ints Sunday.

Very good play calling and letting the players have a go at it( the ball). which they got, again.

Best young defense in football. 2 years in and we get better every game. we have so many second year guys up and coming now, we should continue to improve each week.

Dont worry i know we have had a bazillion yards against. But we keep winning dont we?

[The Big Cat]

the Bills defense is incredibly exciting and winning games. Go George Edwards! I saw him screaming happy with one of our ints Sunday.

Very good play calling and letting the players have a go at it( the ball). which they got, again.

Best young defense in football. 2 years in and we get better every game. we have so many second year guys up and coming now, we should continue to improve each week.

Dont worry i know we have had a bazillion yards against. But we keep winning dont we?

 

[benderbender]

The Bills' defense is terrible. What games are you watching?

 

I agree. I thought we were talking about stats not the final score

[3rdand12]

I may have interrupted the conversation. sorry.

myself i am only looking at who had the most INTs or pressures. i am not happy about all these yards either.

and maybe that will tell soon enough. again sorry off topic.

[dave mcbride]

The only statistics that count are the two scores at the end of the game.

 

But if you want telling stats:

 

Bengals scored on 4 of 5 second half possessions.

Bills have given up 1400 yards in three games.

 

That's not playing good defense.

 

The main reason no one has talked about D prior to this game is that they have been very good in the turnover department. Don't manufacture excuses for poor efforts. Nobody wanted to see the opponents with the ball and time left on the clock for a last drive.

 

This D still has a hard time shutting people down when they need to. The real question is, what games have you been watching?

I think the thing driving all of this is that historically, teams that rely heavily on turnovers (Denver throughout the eighties; the bills in 93) and in fact can trace their winning record to turnover differential (despite lousy defenses yardage wise) tend to get blown out once they come up against a fundamentally sound dominant team on a neutral field that knows how to protect the ball. The super bowl is a high standard, and I would welcome another blowout given my low expectations for this season. having said all of this, the bills are not a fundamentally sound team except for one area (ball security on offense, thanks to a qb who doesn't take hits and a stud rb who doesn't fumble). their defense is freaking horrible, and anyone who denies this is crazy. I'm hoping for the best, but let's keep some perspective here.

Edited October 11, 2011 by dave mcbride

[The Big Cat]

I think the thing driving all of this is that historically, teams that rely heavily on turnovers (Denver throughout the eighties; the bills in 93) and in fact can trace their winning record to turnover differential (despite lousy defenses yardage wise) tend to get blown out once they come up against a fundamentally sound dominant team on a neutral field that knows how to protect the ball. The super bowl is a high standard, and I would welcome another blowout given my low expectations for this season. having said all of this, the bills are not a fundamentally sound team except for one area (ball security on offense, thanks to a qb who doesn't take hits and a stud rb who doesn't fumble). their defense is freaking horrible, and anyone who denies this is crazy. I'm hoping for the best, but let's keep some perspective here.

 

Please substantiate the claim that the defense is "horrible." Because I just re-watched Sunday's game, and they looked quite good to me.

[dave mcbride]

Please substantiate the claim that the defense is "horrible." Because I just re-watched Sunday's game, and they looked quite good to me.

basically, we have a difference of opinion, which is fine. you saw a defense-fueled turnover festival; I saw an eagles track meet (following track meets by the raiders, pats, and bengals) punctuated by a a couple of fluky turnovers and a couple of good plays by the bills. when I see a good defense like the ravens, I don't see teams march up and down the field. the bills are incapable of that right now, although a healthy McGee will be a huge upgrade. I love the bills forcing turnovers, but it doesn't mask a basic inability to cover and tackle. take off the homer blinders.

Edited October 12, 2011 by dave mcbride

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Please substantiate the claim that the defense is "horrible." Because I just re-watched Sunday's game, and they looked quite good to me.

I agree.

 

The numbers absolutely do not back up the contention that the Bills have a good defense but when I watch the games, I see a talented squad with an excellent mix of veterans and young players who have a big upside… and who have played some very good offensive teams so far.

 

If you want to go strictly with the numbers… you have to say that the defense sucks.

 

And you have to say that the offensive line is excellent.

 

 

basically, we have a difference of opinion, which is fine. you saw a defense-fueled turnover festival; I saw an eagles track meet (following track meets by the raiders, pats, and bengals) punctuated by a a couple of fluky turnovers and a couple of good plays by the bills. when I see a good defense like the ravens, I don't see teams march up and down the field. the bills are incapable of that right now, although a healthy McGee will be a huge upgrade. I love the bills forcing turnovers, but it doesn't mask a basic inability to cover and tackle. take off the homer blinders.

Sorry to butt in, Dave.

 

Just want to point out that Michael Vick, LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson, and Jeremy Maclin are pretty elite talents.

 

All those guys have put up huge numbers over their careers.

 

New England's offense speaks for itself and the Raiders have hung big numbers on several teams this year.

 

I think this topic is underemphasizing the quality of the offenses that we've played against… and again, I don't think the numbers tell the story in this case.

 

I'm predicting that this defense gets stronger and stronger as the season wears on… barring a rash of injuries.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[dave mcbride]

I agree.

 

The numbers absolutely do not back up the contention that the Bills have a good defense but when I watch the games, I see a talented squad with an excellent mix of veterans and young players who have a big upside… and who have played some very good offensive teams so far.

 

If you want to go strictly with the numbers… you have to say that the defense sucks.

 

And you have to say that the offensive line is excellent.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to but in, Dave.

 

Just want to point out that Michael Vick, LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson, and Jeremy Maclin are pretty elite talents.

 

All those guys have put up huge numbers over their careers.

 

New England's offense speaks for itself and the Raiders have hung big numbers on several teams this year.

 

I think this topic is underemphasizing the quality of the offenses that we've played against… and again, I don't think the numbers tell the story in this case.

without Fitz, this team is 1-4. it's a qb league, and he has stepped up. he doesn't take sacks and rarely turns the ball over.

 

btw, I agree about the quality of the offenses, but decent defenses hold them to 350-375, not 470. plus the bengals went wild on them too.

Edited October 12, 2011 by dave mcbride

[The Big Cat]

basically, we have a difference of opinion, which is fine. you saw a defense-fueled turnover festival; I saw an eagles track meet (following track meets by the raiders, pats, and bengals) punctuated by a a couple of fluky turnovers and a couple of good plays by the bills. when I see a good defense like the ravens, I don't see teams march up and down the field. the bills are incapable of that right now, although a healthy McGee will be a huge upgrade. I love the bills forcing turnovers, but it doesn't mask a basic inability to cover and tackle. take off the homer blinders.

 

What's fluky about turnovers resulting from a ball tipped by a defender, a ball ripped from a receiver, a pass thrown poorly because the QB had a linebacker barreling into his chest or an interception of a wobbly ball caused by the quarterback getting creamed as he throws it?

 

That's how we EARNED four of the five turnovers last week.

 

I only left off the fifth and final turnover because I simply haven't seen a camera angle that shows what keeps the ball alive long enough for Barnet to get his hands on it.

 

without Fitz, this team is 1-4. it's a qb league, and he has stepped up. he doesn't take sacks and rarely turns the ball over.

 

Again, I hate to tell you you're wrong...but you're wrong. The offensive catalyst the last three weeks, without a doubt, has been Fred Jackson.

[dave mcbride]

What's fluky about turnovers resulting from a ball tipped by a defender, a ball ripped from a receiver, a pass thrown poorly because the QB had a linebacker barreling into his chest or an interception of a wobbly ball caused by the quarterback getting creamed as he throws it?

 

That's how we EARNED four of the five turnovers last week.

 

I only left off the fifth and final turnover because I simply haven't seen a camera angle that shows what keeps the ball alive long enough for Barnet to get his hands on it.

 

 

 

Again, I hate to tell you you're wrong...but you're wrong. The offensive catalyst the last three weeks, without a doubt, has been Fred Jackson.

I love Freddy,but RBs do not win games in today's NFL. if they did, then the two most physically gifted RBs in the league, AP and Stephen jackson, would be leading playoff-caliber offenses. it's all about the qb. fred has certainly done his part, but put Sanchez or cutler on this team and you're looking at 16 sacks after five games and a 1-4 record.

 

a balll randomly hitting the helmet of dareus plus the forced fumble of avant after horrible coverage gave him a 35 yard reception qualifies as fluky in my book. it was a nice strip though -- I'll grant you that.

Edited October 12, 2011 by dave mcbride

[Tcali]

I agree.

 

The numbers absolutely do not back up the contention that the Bills have a good defense but when I watch the games, I see a talented squad with an excellent mix of veterans and young players who have a big upside… and who have played some very good offensive teams so far.

 

If you want to go strictly with the numbers… you have to say that the defense sucks.

 

And you have to say that the offensive line is excellent.

 

 

 

Sorry to butt in, Dave.

 

Just want to point out that Michael Vick, LeSean McCoy, DeSean Jackson, and Jeremy Maclin are pretty elite talents.

 

All those guys have put up huge numbers over their careers.

 

New England's offense speaks for itself and the Raiders have hung big numbers on several teams this year.

 

I think this topic is underemphasizing the quality of the offenses that we've played against… and again, I don't think the numbers tell the story in this case.

 

I'm predicting that this defense gets stronger and stronger as the season wears on… barring a rash of injuries.

 

Our D has improved over last year.And yes we have faced elite talents. --I wouldn't call our D as a whole horrible.We have DB playmakers and we have 2 good D linemen. But lets be honest our LBs individually and as a group are poor to mediocre.-Lets hope this D does keep improving as the year wears on.I can see that.But we need some serious LB help this offseason thru the draft/free agency.

[Chandemonium]

I love Freddy,but RBs do not win games in today's NFL. it's all about the qb. fred has certainly done his part, but put Sanchez or cutler on this team and you're looking at 16 sacks after five games and a 1-4 record.

 

a balll randomly hitting the helmet of dareus plus the forced fumble of avant after horrible coverage gave him a 35 yard reception qualifies as fluky in my book. it was a nice strip though -- I'll grant you that.

I assume you're talking about the tipped ball INT against New England here, since I'm pretty sure that's only happened once this season. There was nothing random about that ball hitting Dareus, it hit him because he was making a play on the ball. If you re-watch that play you'll see him time Brady's throw and jump into the passing lane at the right moment to deflect the pass. Sure, maybe if he times it a little better he tips it with his hands instead of his head, but that INT was the result of Dareus making a concerted effort to make a play on the ball, not some random accident.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Our D has improved over last year.And yes we have faced elite talents. --I wouldn't call our D as a whole horrible.We have DB playmakers and we have 2 good D linemen. But lets be honest our LBs individually and as a group are poor to mediocre.-Lets hope this D does keep improving as the year wears on.I can see that.But we need some serious LB help this offseason thru the draft/free agency.

Well TT, we'll agree to disagree.

 

I also like our linebackers btw… and our D-linemen.

 

I also like our safeties but I think (ironically enough because of Jauron, DB-gate, etc) that we need a lot of help at cornerback.

 

But regardless, mark my words, this is a young, improving defense and I'm confident that they'll make that point for me and in a very clear, inarguable way.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

I assume you're talking about the tipped ball INT against New England here, since I'm pretty sure that's only happened once this season. There was nothing random about that ball hitting Dareus, it hit him because he was making a play on the ball. If you re-watch that play you'll see him time Brady's throw and jump into the passing lane at the right moment to deflect the pass. Sure, maybe if he times it a little better he tips it with his hands instead of his head, but that INT was the result of Dareus making a concerted effort to make a play on the ball, not some random accident.

this is factually untrue. the ball hit dareus on the helmet, and he wasn't looking at it at all. It was dumb luck. I'll take it though. (I have it on tape and just took another look.)

Edited October 12, 2011 by dave mcbride

[Chandemonium]

this is factually untrue. the ball hit dareus on the helmet, and he wasn't looking at it at all. It was dumb luck. I'll take it though. (I have it on tape and just took another look.)

Nope. You're wrong. He's fighting a double team, and just as the ball is thrown he jumps and sticks his arm up. If that's not making a play on the ball, I don't know what is. I'm not sure what angle the video you have of it is from, but you can see this all very clearly in this video, particularly the replay angle from behind Brady that begins just before the 30 second mark:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d8228b2d9/WeeK-3-Can-t-Miss-Play-Florence-pick-six

Edited October 12, 2011 by Chandemonium

[The Big Cat]

this is factually untrue. the ball hit dareus on the helmet, and he wasn't looking at it at all. It was dumb luck. I'll take it though. (I have it on tape and just took another look.)

 

I wasn't talking about that pick anyways, I was referring to the first one against Philly.

 

As for the Dareus tip, you're flat out wrong about that too.