MaineMoxie Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I'm guessing no one with the Bills has asked for an official explanation from the refs and/or NFL?
Taro T Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Touched by Bengal, Knee down, ball secure. Body down ball secure. Ground CANNOT cause a fumble. Play over. Control rule does not apply. The first ref called it right and should not have yielded to the ref 20 yards behind the play. No sign in any frames of a loose ball. The call on the field should have been over turned. The catch and control rule is useful for sideline passes. The over officious ref blew it and was unfortunately supported by his cronies. Disclaimer: I think that the Bills lost for many reason and not just one play. True. But it wasn't a question of whether he fumbled the ball, it was a question of whether he caught it - if the receiver doesn't maintain control of the ball and it touches the ground while he doesn't have control then it is an incompletion. If he maintains control of it, it can touch the ground and still be a catch. The back judge who came in late saw or (more likely) imagined he saw the ball moving in his hand and it touching the ground. The other ref probably deferred to him due to how emphatic he was that he'd seen what he (thought he) saw. The head ref didn't agree with the call after review, he didn't see what happened when Stevie's body obstructed the view of the ball during the review and couldn't overturn the call. If it was moving then and touched the ground (2 VERY big ifs IMHO) at that point, the back judge would have been correct. Common sense says that most likely the ball was under control throughout the entire act of the catch and that it was a good catch. Unfortunately, the replay rule isn't written to give the referee discretion when overruling his crew (or his own call for that matter, when his call is under review) in the replay booth. Unless there is clear evidence to support overturning the call, the call stands. Unfortunately, there didn't appear to be a camera angle that showed what happened when the ball was out of view in the 1st camera. I agree that the call was blown, but if the initial ruling had been the 1 agreed to on the field (IF the Bungles had challenged) the play would have stood because there would have been no clear evidence that the ball wasn't caught.
BuffaloBill Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 The sad reality is that the scoreboard shows a Bills loss. While this call was unfortunate the Bills need only look in the mirror to see why they lost. The Bungles played very good D and the Bills played horrible D. That is the story of the game.
bills44 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 looked like a clear catch during live action, and this confirms it. Well done, NFL refs! I agree that the call was blown, but if the initial ruling had been the 1 agreed to on the field (IF the Bungles had challenged) the play would have stood because there would have been no clear evidence that the ball wasn't caught. I doubt that the Bengals would have challenged the call had the play been ruled complete on the field...
Taro T Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) looked like a clear catch during live action, and this confirms it. Well done, NFL refs! I doubt that the Bengals would have challenged the call had the play been ruled complete on the field... Thus the capitalized 'IF.' There would have been little to no reason for them to challenge. Edited October 4, 2011 by Taro T
KOKBILLS Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 When I saw the first replay that CBS showed, I thought it might have been a drop...but when they showed it from other angles, I am convinced, like me, whichever ref made the call, mistook Nate Clements pink gloved hand for part of the ball...Clements was reaching around Johnson, trying to strip the ball (or at least make him drop it) and it looks like NC's hand kind of blended in with the end of the ball for a split second...I still don't see how they got this call wrong, after reviewing it. And, we all hate excuses, but I think those who are going overboard to say that this play didn't cause the Bills to lose, are forgetting all the little things that are the differences between winning and losing close games like this...I didn't like Gailey's play calling on the Bills last possession (one of the few times I can say that) but I can't help but think Gailey would have drained that clock down, with a first down. True, any time on the clock for the Bengals offense might have been too much, for the Bills defense, but the Bills chances of coming away with an ugly win would have gone up significantly, IMO, had the refs made the right call. Just as some of the calls that went our way, for a change, last week against the Pats helped the Bills win. The difference between winning and losing is pretty slim in most games. A first down, at that point in a game, with the score the what it was, is huge. Exactly...I'm not sure why some folks around here who should understand this concept don't...It's not easy to Win on the Road in the NFL and this garbage being spewed that The Bills are all of a sudden supposed to be the almighty Patsies or SB Champ Packers and overcome any and all obstacles in order to win on the Road is ridiculous...The truth is The Bills are not on that level yet and everyone knows it...But they were leading by 7 points at the time of the Play, in the 4th Quarter, and they just pushed into Cincy territory...They had CLEARLY snatched back momentum at that time of the Game...It was obvious...And also, I realize there are REAL tough calls to make in the NFL...Even some Replay calls are impossible to determine...This call was not one of those...It was SO cut and dry! How it did not get overturned is still beyond my comprehension... So...Folks can say what they will about The Bills not doing what they needed to do to Win that Game...But it mostly applies to what they did not do AFTER that horrible Call...Because before that they may have been sloppy at times, but they had a 7 point lead in the 4th Quarter with about 8:30 left in the Game on the Road vs. an average NFL Team...That's not easy...Worst case scenario they run a couple more minutes off the clock...But 15 more Yards and they are in FG Range...A couple more 1st Downs and now there is VERY little time left for a Cincy comeback...The idea that this was not THE pivotal moment in the game is just wrong...Was it the only reason The Bills lost? Of coarse not...But it was a HUGE reason nonetheless... This was a natural letdown Game for The Bills, and to that point (before the mis-call) they had gutted it out against a VERY good Defense and had a Touchdown lead midway through the 4th Quarter...Then everything went to hell...It's not making excuses...It's fact...It helped the Bengals Win the Game...
shane nelson Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 It should never have come down to one play. Yes the refs got it wrong and if we get the first down we win the game, but watching the NE and Oakland games a few times a number of questionable calls went in our favor. That is football. We have to address bigger issue than the refs. Issues like run defense, pass defense and corner backs. If we dont fix those out great start will be waisted
NoSaint Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 True. But it wasn't a question of whether he fumbled the ball, it was a question of whether he caught it - if the receiver doesn't maintain control of the ball and it touches the ground while he doesn't have control then it is an incompletion. If he maintains control of it, it can touch the ground and still be a catch. The back judge who came in late saw or (more likely) imagined he saw the ball moving in his hand and it touching the ground. The other ref probably deferred to him due to how emphatic he was that he'd seen what he (thought he) saw. The head ref didn't agree with the call after review, he didn't see what happened when Stevie's body obstructed the view of the ball during the review and couldn't overturn the call. If it was moving then and touched the ground (2 VERY big ifs IMHO) at that point, the back judge would have been correct. Common sense says that most likely the ball was under control throughout the entire act of the catch and that it was a good catch. Unfortunately, the replay rule isn't written to give the referee discretion when overruling his crew (or his own call for that matter, when his call is under review) in the replay booth. Unless there is clear evidence to support overturning the call, the call stands. Unfortunately, there didn't appear to be a camera angle that showed what happened when the ball was out of view in the 1st camera. I agree that the call was blown, but if the initial ruling had been the 1 agreed to on the field (IF the Bungles had challenged) the play would have stood because there would have been no clear evidence that the ball wasn't caught. And that's the story. Not a mystery, not a conspiracy.... Ref thought he saw something (who knows, maybe he did, but doesn't look likely) but the replay showed nothing.
Ramius Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I would have been much happier if there was a simple explanation as to why the catch was incomplete, and not just the "the play stands" explanation.
BillsFanNC Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Exactly...I'm not sure why some folks around here who should understand this concept don't...It's not easy to Win on the Road in the NFL and this garbage being spewed that The Bills are all of a sudden supposed to be the almighty Patsies or SB Champ Packers and overcome any and all obstacles in order to win on the Road is ridiculous...The truth is The Bills are not on that level yet and everyone knows it...But they were leading by 7 points at the time of the Play, in the 4th Quarter, and they just pushed into Cincy territory...They had CLEARLY snatched back momentum at that time of the Game...It was obvious...And also, I realize there are REAL tough calls to make in the NFL...Even some Replay calls are impossible to determine...This call was not one of those...It was SO cut and dry! How it did not get overturned is still beyond my comprehension... So...Folks can say what they will about The Bills not doing what they needed to do to Win that Game...But it mostly applies to what they did not do AFTER that horrible Call...Because before that they may have been sloppy at times, but they had a 7 point lead in the 4th Quarter with about 8:30 left in the Game on the Road vs. an average NFL Team...That's not easy...Worst case scenario they run a couple more minutes off the clock...But 15 more Yards and they are in FG Range...A couple more 1st Downs and now there is VERY little time left for a Cincy comeback...The idea that this was not THE pivotal moment in the game is just wrong...Was it the only reason The Bills lost? Of coarse not...But it was a HUGE reason nonetheless... This was a natural letdown Game for The Bills, and to that point (before the mis-call) they had gutted it out against a VERY good Defense and had a Touchdown lead midway through the 4th Quarter...Then everything went to hell...It's not making excuses...It's fact...It helped the Bengals Win the Game... The players have a 24 hour rule after games before they move on and so should we. David Nelson says it best: "We had the ball with four minutes left, we've done it three games this year," he said. "We had every possibility to come out and take the ball and drive down score -- we didn't do that. They had two minutes left, they drove down. We've got to play with what we're presented with and we had every opportunity to close the game and we didn't do that." Let it go.
Mr. WEO Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I'm guessing no one with the Bills has asked for an official explanation from the refs and/or NFL? Looking at pic #3, I'm guessing the ref (on review) saw both of SJ's forearms in contact with the ground and the ball was between his arms (that his arm wasn;t between the ground and the ball) and the ball was in contact with the ground--basically that he briefly fell on the ball and then scooped it back up. It doesn't matter if his knee was down--he has to maintain control throughout the act of the catch. They reviewer thought his arm wasn't between the ball and the ground at all times. Not sure how else they would explain themselves. Anyway, the Bills were still up by a TD, had plenty of time (8:28) to either score or prevent just one score by the Bengals. They couldn't do either.
eme123 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 The problem with the replay is that you can't see the ball because it was in Stevie's arm. Therefore there is insufficient evidence that it was a catch. Incomplete pass, 4th down
Alphadawg7 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Touched by Bengal, Knee down, ball secure. Body down ball secure. Ground CANNOT cause a fumble. Play over. Control rule does not apply. The first ref called it right and should not have yielded to the ref 20 yards behind the play. No sign in any frames of a loose ball. The call on the field should have been over turned. The catch and control rule is useful for sideline passes. The over officious ref blew it and was unfortunately supported by his cronies. Disclaimer: I think that the Bills lost for many reason and not just one play. Huh? No sign of a loose ball? This is the problem with still frames...you can freeze them to show any biased opinion you want. The actual game footage clearly shows the ball loose at the same point as one of these still frames. So to say there was no sign of the loose ball is silly as we all saw the ball come loose. In fact, the only thing NOT in dispute is whether it came loose, because it did. The issue is two fold...one, did he make a completed catch PRIOR to the ball coming loose...and two, did he maintain control once the ball came loose. I believe it to be a catch, but you also have to complete the catch before you are down and maintain control. One thing no one is talking about is the fact that did SJ make enough progress once he caught the ball to be considered a completed catch. If he did not, then the ball coming loose is very significant and the fact that you can not determine if he kept it off the ground or not means the ref can not over turn the call in replay. This is why I believe they did not rule it a catch. Doesnt matter, this play DID NOT lose us this game...we lost because the offense was anemic and the D couldn't stop anything or tackle on the ensuing drives after this. The Bills played bad on both sides of the ball all day and the refs did not cost us the game. In fact, most of the calls that fans are whining about were called properly by the refs...like the tuck rule (rule sucks big time, but they still called it correct according to the crappy rule) and the re spot giving Cincy a first down where he clearly got the first down on the replay. This loss is on the team, not the refs.
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 This is what sticks in my craw about this whole deal. The ref that was on top of the play called it a good catch, and the rest of the crew seemed on board with that. It wasn't until the back judge way down field comes running in and says NO CATCH. Now what did he see? These images don't show the ball coming loose. Would that be the same ref that couldn't see a holding call if it smacked him in the forehead?
Alphadawg7 Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) Exactly...I'm not sure why some folks around here who should understand this concept don't...It's not easy to Win on the Road in the NFL and this garbage being spewed that The Bills are all of a sudden supposed to be the almighty Patsies or SB Champ Packers and overcome any and all obstacles in order to win on the Road is ridiculous...The truth is The Bills are not on that level yet and everyone knows it...But they were leading by 7 points at the time of the Play, in the 4th Quarter, and they just pushed into Cincy territory...They had CLEARLY snatched back momentum at that time of the Game...It was obvious...And also, I realize there are REAL tough calls to make in the NFL...Even some Replay calls are impossible to determine...This call was not one of those...It was SO cut and dry! How it did not get overturned is still beyond my comprehension... So...Folks can say what they will about The Bills not doing what they needed to do to Win that Game...But it mostly applies to what they did not do AFTER that horrible Call...Because before that they may have been sloppy at times, but they had a 7 point lead in the 4th Quarter with about 8:30 left in the Game on the Road vs. an average NFL Team...That's not easy...Worst case scenario they run a couple more minutes off the clock...But 15 more Yards and they are in FG Range...A couple more 1st Downs and now there is VERY little time left for a Cincy comeback...The idea that this was not THE pivotal moment in the game is just wrong...Was it the only reason The Bills lost? Of coarse not...But it was a HUGE reason nonetheless... This was a natural letdown Game for The Bills, and to that point (before the mis-call) they had gutted it out against a VERY good Defense and had a Touchdown lead midway through the 4th Quarter...Then everything went to hell...It's not making excuses...It's fact...It helped the Bengals Win the Game... Sorry, havent read that book..."Things losers say" I mean seriously, this play was disputable, but not a nail in the coffin like you and so many others want to make it out to be. Not enough evidence to overturn on replay, it happens, get over it. To sit here and get in an uproar and blame this play as for a reason why we lost is a loser mentality. WINNERS over come a hiccup, not sit back in the corner throwing all the blame at it. Trust me, Tom Brady and the Patriots would not have let this one play prevent them from executing their game and neither would have the other winning franchises. Calls happen EVERY single game that teams dont agree with or flat out are pissed about, but you still have to execute after that and finish the game off, ESPECIALLY when you have a 7 point lead in the 4th. Not only did we not hold them twice on D after that, but we also did nothing on offense, much like the entire game. And to assume that we would have scored is being pretty generous considering we had problems all second half scoring, including the 2 drives after that...so points were not a given. Not to mention how often we went 3 and out, so even with a first there, we might not get another first down which would mean we would not have even been in FG range. The refs did not lose this game for us, this team did. PS: Why are you not on here giving credit to the refs for helping us beat NE because we got some favorable calls in that game, including the one that guaranteed the win which was taking the Timeout away from the Patriots, something I have never seen ever before by a ref as a penalty to a team for arguing a call. Thats the funny part...when we get breaks in calls, no one gives credit to the win to the refs for helping us, in fact, they dismiss it completely. But when we lose, you all blame the refs...its actually quite comical. Edited October 4, 2011 by Alphadawg7
BUFFALOKIE Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) In the comments section of the linked Blog, "Anonymous said... This is going to sound racist, and it's not. I've often wondered if the brown arms of the African American receivers cause confusion whether it's ball or arm hitting the ground? Should the ball be a different color? October 4, 2011 6:34 AM" Fair question for debate. Anyone down for colored balls? No pink. Edited October 4, 2011 by Stranger in a Strange Land
mattsox Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Ball is in his arm, his knee is down while the bengal is on his back. It's a catch. F'n refs all need glasses and a IQ higher than 2. Worse call of the year thus far. Can only hope for a better game next week. Offense has to score more than 13 to win games.
Alaska Darin Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 It's a lot easier to play defense when you're never flagged for interference, illegal contact, etc and you're doing it on virtually every passing play. It's a lot tougher to play defense when your front 7 is being tackled on virtually every play. I'm surprised Dareus isn't on the injury report with neck problems from the number of times he was horse collared and driven to the ground. I knew we were in trouble on the first big play the Bengals had. Short pass to the smurfy running back. One of the BILLS DBs was in position to make a tackle at or just behind the LoS. The OLineman just grabbed him by the back of the collar and pulled him down. Bang, gap opened, big play. Their OLine got the message that it was open season. I've seen many NFL games that had poor officiating. This game may have been the worst ever. An absolute embarrassment.
MRW Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 PS: Why are you not on here giving credit to the refs for helping us beat NE because we got some favorable calls in that game, including the one that guaranteed the win which was taking the Timeout away from the Patriots, something I have never seen ever before by a ref as a penalty to a team for arguing a call. Thats the funny part...when we get breaks in calls, no one gives credit to the win to the refs for helping us, in fact, they dismiss it completely. But when we lose, you all blame the refs...its actually quite comical. Belichick had to take the time out there unless he wanted the clock to keep running, since Freddie was down in-bounds. Are you secretly Rich Gannon?
KOKBILLS Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Sorry, havent read that book..."Things losers say" Maybe you should...After all you did write it...
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