Do the bills have the best O-line in the NFL?

[PatsFanNH]

There is so much praise going to Fitzy and Steve and Jackson and they deserve it but Fitzy is the least sacked QB in the League! he has been sacked 1 time in three games with throwing 111 times. The next closest is Jason Campbell with 2 sacks and he has only thrown 82 passes. even Brady has been sacked 3 times. Teams also knew that we were going to be passing in two of the games because of the amount we were trailing by.

 

 

Sacks is only IMO part of it, a QB with a quick release and a good pocket presense makes a O line look better,also a QB who holds onto the ball to dang long (David Carr for ex) can make a good line look dreadful.

 

That saiud I think the Bills O line one of the best, I have not seen enough games be 100% sure, as a Pats fan I can say Brady has a LOT of time usually in the pocket to pick a team apart.

[Orton's Arm]

Haha. I simply don't follow the mob mentality that Jauron was the worst coach ever like most do here. He had 2 bad qbs & got the most out of them. He picked Edwards, who failed, so he got fired. And he's doing a good job as the Browns DC.

 

And it's funny because your whole mentality about whining about drafting olinemen high is proven foolish again. The 49ers spent a ton of high picks on olinemen and have one of the worst offenses in the NFL. Most good olines are filled with late round picks.

I'll comment on the bolded statement. It would take 22 years to build a starting lineup with first round picks only. Clearly that's an impossibility. Building a good team can't be done in the first round alone: you also need some good players from rounds 2 - 7.

 

The Patriots have a sixth round pick as their starting quarterback. Does this mean that the position of QB is unimportant, and that teams should seek to use their early picks on non-QBs? Of course not! That would be absurd! What it does mean is that the Patriots happened to find a very good player outside of round 1--like you need to do to build a good team.

 

There are five starting offensive linemen out of 22 starters. You'd expect five out of every 22 late round success stories to be offensive linemen. As Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, and Stevie Johnson would be happy to tell you, late round and UDFA success stories can be found at every starting position. The fact that some of those success stories happen to be offensive linemen doesn't mean either a) that the OL is unimportant, or b) that it should be de-valued on draft day. On the contrary, if you have a need at some difficult-to-fill position on the OL (such as OT), and if the player you need is waiting for you with your first or second round pick, your inclination should be to pull the trigger. (Unless there is some other player who would add even more value to your team.)

 

The combination of a good QB with a good OL is deadly. What do you think is likely to happen when a QB like Kurt Warner or Tom Brady is given all day to throw? Unless the defense rushed three and dropped eight into coverage, an elite QB having all day to throw generally equates to the defense getting carved up and eaten like a Thanksgiving turkey. A good OL without a good quarterback is far less impressive: the Ravens of 2000 went five straight games without scoring an offensive touchdown, despite having a Hall of Fame-level LT in the form of Jon Ogden. Pass protection is a weapon, and a quarterback like Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees will receive much more benefit from being given that weapon than will Trent Dilfer or Tony Banks.

 

Obviously you can't have an elite offense without a very good or elite quarterback. But think about things from the opposite perspective. When you think about ways to stop an elite quarterback, what's the first thing which typically comes to mind? For most people the answer to that question is a good pass rush. If your offensive line is second- or third-rate, you make it easy for defensive coordinators to use a good pass rush to stop your elite quarterback. Why on earth would you want to do that?

 

Over the last 40 years, the Bills have used their first pick in the draft on a RB ten different times. There were also ten different times when their first draft pick was used on a DB. They have never used their first draft pick on a QB, and only twice have used it on an OT. This means that the Bills have generally failed to avail themselves of the powerful good QB + good OL combination. This failure is a big reason why, over its history, the team has lost many more games than it has won.

[thewildrabbit]

I'll comment on the bolded statement. It would take 22 years to build a starting lineup with first round picks only. Clearly that's an impossibility. Building a good team can't be done in the first round alone: you also need some good players from rounds 2 - 7.

 

The Patriots have a sixth round pick as their starting quarterback. Does this mean that the position of QB is unimportant, and that teams should seek to use their early picks on non-QBs? Of course not! That would be absurd! What it does mean is that the Patriots happened to find a very good player outside of round 1--like you need to do to build a good team.

 

There are five starting offensive linemen out of 22 starters. You'd expect five out of every 22 late round success stories to be offensive linemen. As Kyle Williams, Fred Jackson, and Stevie Johnson would be happy to tell you, late round and UDFA success stories can be found at every starting position. The fact that some of those success stories happen to be offensive linemen doesn't mean either a) that the OL is unimportant, or b) that it should be de-valued on draft day. On the contrary, if you have a need at some difficult-to-fill position on the OL (such as OT), and if the player you need is waiting for you with your first or second round pick, your inclination should be to pull the trigger. (Unless there is some other player who would add even more value to your team.)

 

The combination of a good QB with a good OL is deadly. What do you think is likely to happen when a QB like Kurt Warner or Tom Brady is given all day to throw? Unless the defense rushed three and dropped eight into coverage, an elite QB having all day to throw generally equates to the defense getting carved up and eaten like a Thanksgiving turkey. A good OL without a good quarterback is far less impressive: the Ravens of 2000 went five straight games without scoring an offensive touchdown, despite having a Hall of Fame-level LT in the form of Jon Ogden. Pass protection is a weapon, and a quarterback like Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees will receive much more benefit from being given that weapon than will Trent Dilfer or Tony Banks.

 

Obviously you can't have an elite offense without a very good or elite quarterback. But think about things from the opposite perspective. When you think about ways to stop an elite quarterback, what's the first thing which typically comes to mind? For most people the answer to that question is a good pass rush. If your offensive line is second- or third-rate, you make it easy for defensive coordinators to use a good pass rush to stop your elite quarterback. Why on earth would you want to do that?

 

Over the last 40 years, the Bills have used their first pick in the draft on a RB ten different times. There were also ten different times when their first draft pick was used on a DB. They have never used their first draft pick on a QB, and only twice have used it on an OT. This means that the Bills have generally failed to avail themselves of the powerful good QB + good OL combination. This failure is a big reason why, over its history, the team has lost many more games than it has won.

Good post, good points.

 

I've posted several times over the last few years that building a good O line goes hand and hand with winning and finding a good QB, how will you ever know if you have a top QB if he is constantly running for his life trying to avoid getting sacked or constantly getting beaten down and concussed.

 

This past decade the Bills have had 10+ QB's and 43+ O linemen. If you go back and look at the Kelly era there were 3 players that were mainstays almost the entire time Jim Kelly was there, G Richter-C Hull- LT Wilford. All three of those men played in the NFL for 10 years or longer and made the pro bowl at one time or another. G Jim Richter was drafted by Chuck Knox in 1980 and played for both Knox and Marv levy. Its kinda the reason why I equate quality & longevity to equaling a good O line.

 

As with the Tom Brady analogy the Bills don't need 5 first round picks on that line, but they surely do need more quality players, rather then waiver wire cast offs from other teams. They found Jason Peters as a free agent walk on tight end and converted him into an all pro LT, nothing wrong with that in my view. Bringing in new players and developing them properly is usually the way to go. Buddy Nix must think the line needed to be upgraded also or he wouldn't have made a bid for Tyson Clabo in free agency. In attempting to sign Clabo Nix was going against what he has stated he doesn't like to do, and that is build thru free agency

 

 

 

 

 

All I have to say to those that still think the Bills are fielding one of the best O lines in the NFL is...wait! Simply wait until Fred Jackson or Ryan Fitzpatrick aren't playing for whatever reason and then watch how the backup QB-RB plays behind that so called "best" O line. Watch what happens when the QB needs more then 3 seconds to find the receiver or there is no hole and the RB needs to break tackles to make that first defender miss and make his yards.

 

It has been my contention throughout this thread that both Fred Jackson and Fitz make that current line look so much better then it actually is. While some agree that both Jackson and Fitz are playing like top players at their positions... they seem convinced it is because the line is allowing them to do so! While I'm still convinced that line has several weak positions that still need to be upgraded. These positions have already been somewhat exposed, and as the season goes on we will see them exposed more and more as the Bills play tougher defenses. They already played poorly against Cincinnati, I think they will get worse before they get better.

 

Anyway, Let's hope Chris Hairston can hold his own against the Eagles and plays well. He is going up against some Eagle backups that are coming off injuries so he is catching a break. Should Hairston not play well I won't criticize him, after all he is a rookie and needs time to develop properly, I'll be pulling for him to play well.

[3rdand12]

very well put F t B.

[starrymessenger]

O-Line is definitely better than expected. Fred has had some gaping holes, especially on the left side of the line. Left guard is playing at a high level, left tackle is more than holding his own. Line remains a work in progress but it should at least be clear that barring injury i.e. not much depth, it is nowhere near the liability many of us feared. How good can it be? Don't know, but I have seen enuf to say that it can be good.

[RealityCheck]

Our O-line is not that good.

[Orton's Arm]

Good post, good points.

 

I've posted several times over the last few years that building a good O line goes hand and hand with winning and finding a good QB, how will you ever know if you have a top QB if he is constantly running for his life trying to avoid getting sacked or constantly getting beaten down and concussed.

 

This past decade the Bills have had 10+ QB's and 43+ O linemen. If you go back and look at the Kelly era there were 3 players that were mainstays almost the entire time Jim Kelly was there, G Richter-C Hull- LT Wilford. All three of those men played in the NFL for 10 years or longer and made the pro bowl at one time or another. G Jim Richter was drafted by Chuck Knox in 1980 and played for both Knox and Marv levy. Its kinda the reason why I equate quality & longevity to equaling a good O line.

 

As with the Tom Brady analogy the Bills don't need 5 first round picks on that line, but they surely do need more quality players, rather then waiver wire cast offs from other teams. They found Jason Peters as a free agent walk on tight end and converted him into an all pro LT, nothing wrong with that in my view. Bringing in new players and developing them properly is usually the way to go. Buddy Nix must think the line needed to be upgraded also or he wouldn't have made a bid for Tyson Clabo in free agency. In attempting to sign Clabo Nix was going against what he has stated he doesn't like to do, and that is build thru free agency

 

All I have to say to those that still think the Bills are fielding one of the best O lines in the NFL is...wait! Simply wait until Fred Jackson or Ryan Fitzpatrick aren't playing for whatever reason and then watch how the backup QB-RB plays behind that so called "best" O line. Watch what happens when the QB needs more then 3 seconds to find the receiver or there is no hole and the RB needs to break tackles to make that first defender miss and make his yards.

 

It has been my contention throughout this thread that both Fred Jackson and Fitz make that current line look so much better then it actually is. While some agree that both Jackson and Fitz are playing like top players at their positions... they seem convinced it is because the line is allowing them to do so! While I'm still convinced that line has several weak positions that still need to be upgraded. These positions have already been somewhat exposed, and as the season goes on we will see them exposed more and more as the Bills play tougher defenses. They already played poorly against Cincinnati, I think they will get worse before they get better.

 

Anyway, Let's hope Chris Hairston can hold his own against the Eagles and plays well. He is going up against some Eagle backups that are coming off injuries so he is catching a break. Should Hairston not play well I won't criticize him, after all he is a rookie and needs time to develop properly, I'll be pulling for him to play well.

Good post, interspersed with a series of solid points. I cannot see a single thing you've written with which I disagree.

 

You are correct to say that both Fitz and Freddie make the line look better than it really is; and that those who think the Bills' OL is the best in the league are seriously mistaken. I certainly wouldn't complain if the Bills used an early pick on an offensive lineman in the 2012 draft.

 

I agree that continuity improves the quality of play of the OL. I'll add to that by saying that when a QB and his receivers and offensive coordinator are able to spend many years in the same system, it also helps.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The OP asked the question (best O-line?)… but didn't claim that to be his/hers opinion. The OP simply put it out there for discussion.

 

In 107 replies so far, has anyone said the Bills have the best O-line in football? I don't remember anyone saying that but maybe I missed it.

 

I remember early in the discussion, myself and several others trying to steer this into a conversation about which offensive lines might be better than the Bills line.

 

I believe there are about 6 teams that have been mentioned as having better O-lines than do the Bills… including the New York Jets who are clearly not better right now (they're missing Mangold and Damien Woody has retired, but supposed franchise left tackle and former first rounder D Ferguson is looking rather ordinary).

 

If you want to disprove the imagined contention that the Bills have the best O-line, you simply have to state which ones are better.

 

If as a group, we can only name 5-6 teams with better O-lines (in a 32 team league), then it's probably safe to say that the Bills have one of the best O-lines in the league.

 

If you disagree you can bluster along but it's much easier to simply name more offensive lines that are better.

 

For those who think the Bills O-line is mediocre, where would you say they rank, in your opinion?

 

 

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

If as a group, we can only name 5-6 teams with better O-lines (in a 32 team league), then it's probably safe to say that the Bills have one of the best O-lines in the league.

 

If you disagree you can bluster along but it's much easier to simply name more offensive lines that are better.

 

For those who think the Bills O-line is mediocre, where would you say they rank, in your opinion?

 

1) As a group? Is this what we do now? Agree as a group?

 

2) Is it? Is it easier for people with lives, jobs, families, etc. to go over the roster of every single NFL team and disect their rosters?

 

3) The Bills OL played well in the first quarter of the season. Much of this is certainly due to the brains and quick release of Fitz, and the second effort of FJ. I think that some posters who complain about the OL want a bigger and stronger team. We watched ourselves go down the tubes due to draft selections such as Whitner, McKelvin, Lynch, Maybin, etc. Dareus, a big, strong DL, has already made an impact on this team.

 

4) You tell me if you will, who would you rather have right now, another strong OT or CJ Spiller and all the yards and TDs he has produced in 20 games?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

1) As a group? Is this what we do now? Agree as a group?

 

2) Is it? Is it easier for people with lives, jobs, families, etc. to go over the roster of every single NFL team and disect their rosters?

 

3) The Bills OL played well in the first quarter of the season. Much of this is certainly due to the brains and quick release of Fitz, and the second effort of FJ. I think that some posters who complain about the OL want a bigger and stronger team. We watched ourselves go down the tubes due to draft selections such as Whitner, McKelvin, Lynch, Maybin, etc. Dareus, a big, strong DL, has already made an impact on this team.

 

4) You tell me if you will, who would you rather have right now, another strong OT or CJ Spiller and all the yards and TDs he has produced in 20 games?

Bill, you're like a broken record.

 

The Bills have one of the biggest offensive lines in football.

 

They've only allowed 3 sacks in 4 games.

 

They're 5th in the league in rushing.

 

Obviously you need to spend more time paying attention to football because as a fan, you seem to be less and less informed… your hackneyed arguments stay the same as the world changes around you.

 

If it's too much for you to be a close observer of the league, that's fine. I have a family and a job too. I do lots of stuff outside of being an NFL fan but I won't bore you with the details.

 

But you might want to start learning a few new tunes. Your post above is the same one you've been singing for years. And your singing isn't getting any better.

 

 

[PDaDdy]

There is so much praise going to Fitzy and Steve and Jackson and they deserve it but Fitzy is the least sacked QB in the League! he has been sacked 1 time in three games with throwing 111 times. The next closest is Jason Campbell with 2 sacks and he has only thrown 82 passes. even Brady has been sacked 3 times. Teams also knew that we were going to be passing in two of the games because of the amount we were trailing by.

 

BWHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!! ...PHEW....THAT WAS A GOOD ONE!!

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, you're like a broken record.

 

The Bills have one of the biggest offensive lines in football.

 

They've only allowed 3 sacks in 4 games.

 

They're 5th in the league in rushing.

 

Obviously you need to spend more time paying attention to football because as a fan, you seem to be less and less informed… your hackneyed arguments stay the same as the world changes around you.

 

If it's too much for you to be a close observer of the league, that's fine. I have a family and a job too. I do lots of stuff outside of being an NFL fan but I won't bore you with the details.

 

But you might want to start learning a few new tunes. Your post above is the same one you've been singing for years. And your singing isn't getting any better.

 

Your posts are stiff and stupid. Answering questions and addressing points isn't your forte, is it?

But, what is clear is that you are forming all encompassing opinions after 4 games, and demanding that others share your simplistic view at the risk of baring your sophomoric, idiotic wrath.

 

Carry on, but you are offensive, and making a fool of yourself.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Bill from NYC

[3rdand12]

the only offensive lines i even watch is ours and the team we are playing against. And i am really focused on our defensive play at that point. I watch MD and Kyle closely enough but keep my eyes on Barnett till the ball is gone. since i cant replay its hard for me to have an opinion. i can say our O line is much better than expected and might well be described as very good at this point. And they are pretty large nowadays but thin in depth. Hairston's play will tell alot about how good we are. Chad did a very nice job filling for Urbik.

and as all this goes, the longer we/they/us are together the better they/we/us will become.

i did not answer any questions but i do not care i can write what i want. Ha!

[buffalover4life]

another good performance from the buffalo O line!

[2003Contenders]

Yep. Allowed just one sack to the team that is/was leading the NFL in sacks. And that one sack was more of a coverage sack as Fitz had nowhere to go with the ball. I wouldn't say that this is the best OL in the NFL, given that I think Fitz's quick decision making and Gailey's short/quick pass routes have as much to do with it. Still, it is MUCH better than I anticipated that it would be -- and even depth (Hairston, Reinhart) is beginning to show up.

[Juror#8]

Your posts are stiff and stupid. Answering questions and addressing points isn't your forte, is it?

But, what is clear is that you are forming all encompassing opinions after 4 games, and demanding that others share your simplistic view at the risk of baring your sophomoric, idiotic wrath.

 

Carry on, but you are offensive, and making a fool of yourself.

 

Just interested to know...what do you feel is a satisfactory sample in terms of games played to formulate an opinion on the veracity of the O-Line? Or are you basing it on performance against a specific opponent? Giants maybe?

 

Raiders - Averaging nearly 3 sacks a game and replete with Richard Seymour - 1 sack against

Chiefs - Averaging 1 sack a game (pathetic) but replete with Tamba Hali - 0 sacks against

Bengals - Averaging 2.7 sacks a game - 1 sack against

Eagles - Averaging 3+ sacks a game - and replete with Justin Babin and Cullen Jenkins - 1 sack against

Patriots - Averaging less than 2 sacks a game - 0 sacks against

 

 

Just interested in knowing your idea of qualitative metrics...

[maryland-bills-fan]

fear the beard said

".....All I have to say to those that still think the Bills are fielding one of the best O lines in the NFL is...wait! Simply wait until Fred Jackson or Ryan Fitzpatrick aren't playing for whatever reason and then watch how the backup QB-RB plays behind that so called "best" O line. Watch what happens when the QB needs more then 3 seconds to find the receiver or there is no hole and the RB needs to break tackles to make that first defender miss and make his yards.

It has been my contention throughout this thread that both Fred Jackson and Fitz make that current line look so much better then it actually is. While some agree that both Jackson and Fitz are playing like top players at their positions... they seem convinced it is because the line is allowing them to do so! While I'm still convinced that line has several weak positions that still need to be upgraded. These positions have already been somewhat exposed, and as the season goes on we will see them exposed more and more as the Bills play tougher defenses. They already played poorly against Cincinnati, I think they will get worse before they get better.

Anyway, Let's hope Chris Hairston can hold his own against the Eagles and plays well. He is going up against some Eagle backups that are coming off injuries so he is catching a break. Should Hairston not play well I won't criticize him, after all he is a rookie and needs time to develop properly, I'll be pulling for him to play well. "

 

 

I have a "but" for that line of argument. Gailey/Nix are smart people. They are getting the best out of the combination of Freddie/Fritz & the o-line. If something changes (Freddie goes down or whatever), they will adjust and find a different combination of players and schemes to get the best out of what they have. The line would play different, the players would play different. It might even be a better combination that they had not trusted before.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

the only offensive lines i even watch is ours and the team we are playing against. And i am really focused on our defensive play at that point. I watch MD and Kyle closely enough but keep my eyes on Barnett till the ball is gone. since i cant replay its hard for me to have an opinion. i can say our O line is much better than expected and might well be described as very good at this point. And they are pretty large nowadays but thin in depth. Hairston's play will tell alot about how good we are. Chad did a very nice job filling for Urbik.

and as all this goes, the longer we/they/us are together the better they/we/us will become.

i did not answer any questions but i do not care i can write what i want. Ha!

 

another good performance from the buffalo O line!

 

Yep. Allowed just one sack to the team that is/was leading the NFL in sacks. And that one sack was more of a coverage sack as Fitz had nowhere to go with the ball. I wouldn't say that this is the best OL in the NFL, given that I think Fitz's quick decision making and Gailey's short/quick pass routes have as much to do with it. Still, it is MUCH better than I anticipated that it would be -- and even depth (Hairston, Reinhart) is beginning to show up.

 

Just interested to know...what do you feel is a satisfactory sample in terms of games played to formulate an opinion on the veracity of the O-Line? Or are you basing it on performance against a specific opponent? Giants maybe?

 

Raiders - Averaging nearly 3 sacks a game and replete with Richard Seymour - 1 sack against

Chiefs - Averaging 1 sack a game (pathetic) but replete with Tamba Hali - 0 sacks against

Bengals - Averaging 2.7 sacks a game - 1 sack against

Eagles - Averaging 3+ sacks a game - and replete with Justin Babin and Cullen Jenkins - 1 sack against

Patriots - Averaging less than 2 sacks a game - 0 sacks against

 

 

Just interested in knowing your idea of qualitative metrics...

 

fear the beard said

 

I have a "but" for that line of argument. Gailey/Nix are smart people. They are getting the best out of the combination of Freddie/Fritz & the o-line. If something changes (Freddie goes down or whatever), they will adjust and find a different combination of players and schemes to get the best out of what they have. The line would play different, the players would play different. It might even be a better combination that they had not trusted before.

Yep. Another outstanding game by the O-line.

 

One interesting stat is that in the 2nd half, the Bills won the time of possession (18:28 to 11:42) and ran the ball as many times as they threw it.

 

The Bills got a bit conservative offensively but with D Rodgers-Cromartie, Asante Samuel, and Nnamdi, I think that's pretty understandable. You don't want to throw a pick and the quickest way for the Bills to lose the game would be to turn the ball over.

 

While they went into a bit of a shell, it's hard to argue with feeding Freddie the ball behind this huge offensive line.

 

The fact that the Eagles were playing run first made me like the strategy even more. The Bills wanted to play smashmouth and impose their will.

 

I'm good with being stubborn on the run in that situation.

 

Also, it was great to see Chris Hairston follow up on the strong impression he made in the preseason.

[3rdand12]

Hairston did very well indeed. Andy is becoming a favorite player to watch for me.

Well i did not know if were #1 O-line, but i now i feel we are.

But as a season goes, what happened last week does not matter and we are going to have to prove ourselves every week from here on of course.

We know they can, they know they can, win baby. this is the stretch, they have found rythym and the horses are all pulling the cart in the same direction now. we have two SOLID proven backups.

I am absolutely delighted in these young mens efforts.

Are we number one? How would i know? i am so biased right now i cant see straight.

Go Bills!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Well this Giants game is another huge test for the Bills O-line.

 

For the second week in a row, the Bills are playing the NFL's top sack team, the New York Giants.

 

 

The Eagles were leading the league in sacks with 15 before they played the Bills. They left Orchard Park with only one more.

 

Unlike Philly who was missing one of their top pass rushers in Trent Cole (but still had the NFL's leading sacker at the time, Jason Babin), the Giants are getting healthier in terms of pass rushers.

 

Second-year player Jason Pierre-Paul is really coming on and is 2nd in the NFL with 7.0 sacks. Justin Tuck should play after missing last week and Osi Umenyiora made his 2011 debut in week 4 and already has 3.5 sacks in just 2 games. Dave Tollefson has 3 sacks and Mathias Kiwanuka is an excellent pass rusher.

 

In addition, the Bills are gonna have to deal with crowd noise as the visitors so this will add another layer of difficulty to the task.

 

As for run defense, the Giants are average to below average… 21st in the league allowing 122.2 rushing yards per game.