Sorta football, sorta politics, sorta neither

[OGTEleven]

It's sorta football becuase it involves the miami dolphins (capitalization of their city or name is not allowed in this thread so if you want to do it, start your own). The miami dolphins sorta play football.

 

It's sorta politics because it involves minority hiring practices.

 

It's sorta neither beacuse it is really a farce. It is clear the stinking fish want saban as their head coach. That's ok I guess, but it makes him look pretty stupid if you ask me. Art Shell interviewed for the job yesterday. What is his current job you ask? VP of football operations for the NFL. Is it possible that no other black coach wanted to bother because they knew the result? Is it possible that the league sent in Shell to save face? Does this make the league look two faced to you? CYA if there ever was.

 

Does the NFL's policy help? What do you think?

 

I don't think it helps. Saban may or may not be the best coach available but any coach (black or white) that accepts the miami job loses credibility to me. How could a coach with bad enough judgement to take that job be the best candidate?

 

P.S. I am fully aware that sorta is not a word.

[KRC]

It's sorta football becuase it involves the miami dolphins (capitalization of their city or name is not allowed in this thread so if you want to do it, start your own). The miami dolphins sorta play football.

 

It's sorta politics because it involves minority hiring practices. 

 

It's sorta neither beacuse it is really a farce.  It is clear the stinking fish want saban as their head coach.  That's ok I guess, but it makes him look pretty stupid if you ask me.  Art Shell interviewed for the job yesterday.  What is his current job you ask?  VP of football operations for the NFL.  Is it possible that no other black coach wanted to bother because they knew the result?  Is it possible that the league sent in Shell to save face?  Does this make the league look two faced to you?  CYA if there ever was. 

 

Does the NFL's policy help?  What do you think?

 

I don't think it helps.  Saban may or may not be the best coach available but any coach (black or white) that accepts the miami job loses credibility to me.  How could a coach with bad enough judgement to take that job be the best candidate?

 

P.S. I am fully aware that sorta is not a word.

170825[/snapback]

 

It is another of those "feel good" rules that seem to have the opposite of its intended effect. Some teams already have coaches in mind, but are forced to interview minority candidates if their desired coach is white. Unfortunately, since the rule was put in place, minority candidates have been subjected to token interviews. To me, this is worse than not getting the interview in the first place. You are telling the candidate, "we really do not want you as the coach, but we are being forced to bring you in to make things look better."

 

I think that the NFL needs to rethink this rule and provide a better solution. To me, this rule is absolutely insulting to minority coaches.

[RuntheDamnBall]

It is another of those "feel good" rules that seem to have the opposite of its intended effect. Some teams already have coaches in mind, but are forced to interview minority candidates if their desired coach is white. Unfortunately, since the rule was put in place, minority candidates have been subjected to token interviews. To me, this is worse than not getting the interview in the first place. You are telling the candidate, "we really do not want you as the coach, but we are being forced to bring you in to make things look better."

 

I think that the NFL needs to rethink this rule and provide a better solution. To me, this rule is absolutely insulting to minority coaches.

170840[/snapback]

I agree with you. What the league should be doing (and it looks like they are on the right track in this respect) is recruiting black players/former players to do coaching, training and seminars on high school, college and pro levels and getting them into the assistant coach and college head coach businesses. The greater the pool of African-American assistants, the harder it will be to draw from an exclusively white pool. When these coaches find success, as Jerry Gray is starting to, it will be inevitable that they start getting more calls to run the show. And with more of the skill players than ever being African-American, there is no doubt that they will be valuable resources for teams in the future in need of assistants. (I, for one, can see Lawyer Milloy and Troy Vincent coaching.)

 

If you want to talk about a real problem with minority hiring, D-1 college football has it (three black coaches for 170-some schools - the NFL's rate seems monumental compared to this). It's much more of an old-boy network. Think about it: what better way would there be to show some of the African-American athletes that school is valuable, and to keep them there to graduation, than to have a coach who understands their background and culture a little better, who is a shining example of success on a high level.

[nobody]

Art Shell should still be coaching the raiders.

[BigAL]

It's sorta football becuase it involves the miami dolphins (capitalization of their city or name is not allowed in this thread so if you want to do it, start your own). The miami dolphins sorta play football.

 

It's sorta politics because it involves minority hiring practices. 

 

It's sorta neither beacuse it is really a farce.  It is clear the stinking fish want saban as their head coach.  That's ok I guess, but it makes him look pretty stupid if you ask me.  Art Shell interviewed for the job yesterday.  What is his current job you ask?  VP of football operations for the NFL.  Is it possible that no other black coach wanted to bother because they knew the result?  Is it possible that the league sent in Shell to save face?  Does this make the league look two faced to you?  CYA if there ever was. 

 

Does the NFL's policy help?  What do you think?

 

I don't think it helps.  Saban may or may not be the best coach available but any coach (black or white) that accepts the miami job loses credibility to me.  How could a coach with bad enough judgement to take that job be the best candidate?

 

P.S. I am fully aware that sorta is not a word.

170825[/snapback]

 

There's a good article on the front of ESPN's NFL section about Art Shell. It sums up fairly well how I feel. Sometimes the interview is going to be a token one, but I bet Shell and other candidates are more experienced and more prepared the next time an opening comes around that they can interview for. I think Randy Shannon made a mistake by not interviewing. I'm sure he could have used the practice.

 

ESPN Article

[/dev/null]

art shell = rj

[_BiB_]

Anyone Cuban know anything about football? I've been invited to interviews so there was someone there when the prime candidate came in. Was never said, but I know it.

 

Screw a bunch of PC crap. Hire the best available person who will take the job. Works at Mickey D's, should work for the NFL.

 

The longer folks keep pushing this "equality" issue, the longer there will be a problem. I'm not saying it's not there, but one does not remove it by force focusing on it.

[Albany,n.y.]

There should be an exemption based on salary. If you hire a coach for more than $3 million or $4 million a year you are showing that the candidate is not equal to the rest of the field. If the candidate you deem superior happens to be white, then the minority candidates are sham interviews. I'd rather show some respect towards the minority candidates & not have them participate in a sham because of some stupid NFL rule. Anyone who believes there is a minority candidate who could have convinced Dallas to hire him over Parcells with his 3 Super Bowl appearances + Jets turnaround, convinced Detroit to hire him over local boy & multiple playoff coach Mariucci, and Miami to hire him over N. Saban with his Belichick backround in the NFL & national championship at the college level doesn't have a grip on reality. If Saban turns Miami down they'll be going through the whole process all over again. If Saban accepts, the Shell interview is a sham. No matter what happens, Shell ain't coaching the Dolphins next year.

[Alaska Darin]

There should be an exemption based on salary.  If you hire a coach for more than $3 million  or $4 million a year you are showing that the candidate is not equal to the rest of the field.  If the candidate you deem superior happens to be white, then the minority candidates are sham interviews.  I'd rather show some respect towards the minority candidates & not have them participate in a sham because of some stupid NFL rule.  Anyone who believes there is a minority candidate who could have convinced Dallas to hire him over Parcells with his 3 Super Bowl appearances + Jets turnaround, convinced Detroit to hire him over local boy & multiple playoff coach Mariucci, and Miami to hire him over N. Saban with his Belichick backround in the NFL & national championship at the college level doesn't have a grip on reality.  If Saban turns Miami down they'll be going through the whole process all over again.  If Saban accepts, the Shell interview is a sham.  No matter what happens, Shell ain't coaching the Dolphins next year.

172432[/snapback]

Good post.

[BigAL]

There should be an exemption based on salary.  If you hire a coach for more than $3 million  or $4 million a year you are showing that the candidate is not equal to the rest of the field.  If the candidate you deem superior happens to be white, then the minority candidates are sham interviews.  I'd rather show some respect towards the minority candidates & not have them participate in a sham because of some stupid NFL rule.  Anyone who believes there is a minority candidate who could have convinced Dallas to hire him over Parcells with his 3 Super Bowl appearances + Jets turnaround, convinced Detroit to hire him over local boy & multiple playoff coach Mariucci, and Miami to hire him over N. Saban with his Belichick backround in the NFL & national championship at the college level doesn't have a grip on reality.  If Saban turns Miami down they'll be going through the whole process all over again.  If Saban accepts, the Shell interview is a sham.  No matter what happens, Shell ain't coaching the Dolphins next year.

172432[/snapback]

 

Were you as vocal in your concern for minority candidates when they weren't getting any interview opportunities at all?

[Albany,n.y.]

Were you as vocal in your concern for minority candidates when they weren't getting any interview opportunities at all?

172619[/snapback]

 

I'm against interviewing candidates you have no intention of hiring. It's stupid & a waste of everyone's time (& the money of whomever is paying to get the person for the interview).

I remember when for years the media would get on the NFL for not making Tony Dungy a head coach. I got a little tired of it when I noticed he was younger than any of the head coaches in the NFL and maybe he had more dues to pay because of his age. I also remember screaming at him from the upper deck at the then Rich that I hope he never gets a HC job, because he used to coach his defense to play dirty and his d took Kelly out of the game (& season) by going after his knee in a Vikings game in 1994.

I also thought that Butler & Ralph could have found a better minority candidate when the hired Wade in 1998.

[blzrul]

Maybe Art Shell wants to coach again?

 

I am not an owner, more's the pity, but if I was I'd want the guy who could make my team a winner. Saban has the credentials, but if the chemistry ain't there it doesn't matter.

 

Look at Jimmy Johnson and the Fish. On paper JJ was a "great" coach but he couldn't deal with the patented miami nosedive that started annually around October 20.

 

Since so many of the players (at least from what I see) appear to be black, I would imagine that if those players want to coach after they retire, we'll see a lot of black coaches. They may not be any more qualified that the white guys - in which case then I guess you could say equality has been realized. There's so much around coaching that has little to do with the coach's knowledge or experience and everything to do with his ability to inspire confidence, recognize his weaknesses and select assistants that have strengths where he does not.

 

Or "she" for that matter. Maybe a retired Dallas Diamond player will end up on an NFL staff someday. Why not?

[Kelly the Dog]

It's a crappy rule and usually a sham but...

 

1] Something has to be done or there will be an inequitable number of minority coaches. People are not going to do the right thing. It may not be the cure but it's better than nothing.

 

2] Shell and the other minority candidates can simply refuse the interview if they think it is a sham. Frankly, I think this interview helps Shell's chances of becoming a coach again. Just not in Miami.

 

3] The rule and practice of it is a sham, and yet still should exist in some fashion.

 

4] Shell's interview is no more a sham than Bates' interview today, even with the Fins win last night. He ain't getting the job any more than Shell is.

 

5] The reason Shell got the interview was simply because all the good minority candidates are working right now, and that's a sham, too.

 

6] The rule and practice of it are a sham.

 

7] The hirings of Herman Edwards and Marvin Lewis and Lovie Smith, etc. were likely helped by this terrible sham of a rule.

[BigAL]

I'm against interviewing candidates you have no intention of hiring.  It's stupid & a waste of everyone's time (& the money of whomever is paying to get the person for the interview). 

I remember when for years the media would get on the NFL for not making Tony Dungy a head coach.  I got a little tired of it when I noticed he was younger than any of the head coaches in the NFL and maybe he had more dues to pay because of his age.  I also remember screaming at him from the upper deck at the then Rich that I hope he never gets a HC job, because he used to coach his defense to play dirty and his d took Kelly out of the game (& season) by going after his knee in a Vikings game in 1994.   

I also thought that Butler & Ralph could have found a better minority candidate when the hired Wade in 1998.

172668[/snapback]

 

Yeah, I really feel sorry for the NFL owner who is forced to shell out a few thousand dollars to interview a minority candidate. If Shell thought it was a waste of his time, he wouldn't have taken the interview like Denny Green for the Detroit job.

 

So I take it you prefer the good old days of recycling the old familiar retread coaches?

[BigAL]

Screw a bunch of PC crap. Hire the best available person who will take the job. Works at Mickey D's, should work for the NFL.

 

The longer folks keep pushing this "equality" issue, the longer there will be a problem. I'm not saying it's not there, but one does not remove it by force focusing on it.

172409[/snapback]

 

One does not fix it by ignoring it either. About the only way to guarantee that nothing changes is to ignore the issue. Besides, it's not an "equality" thing. It's an "opportunity" issue. Your Mcdonalds anaolgy only works becasue McDonalds interviews all qualified candidates. That was not the case for the NFL for many years, and probably still isn't.

[OGTEleven]

It's a crappy rule and usually a sham but...

 

1] Something has to be done or there will be an inequitable number of minority coaches. People are not going to do the right thing. It may not be the cure but it's better than nothing.

 

2] Shell and the other minority candidates can simply refuse the interview if they think it is a sham. Frankly, I think this interview helps Shell's chances of becoming a coach again. Just not in Miami.

 

3] The rule and practice of it is a sham, and yet still should exist in some fashion.

 

4] Shell's interview is no more a sham than Bates' interview today, even with the Fins win last night. He ain't getting the job any more than Shell is.

 

5] The reason Shell got the interview was simply because all the good minority candidates are working right now, and that's a sham, too.

 

6] The rule and practice of it are a sham.

 

7] The hirings of Herman Edwards and Marvin Lewis and Lovie Smith, etc. were likely helped by this terrible sham of a rule.

172754[/snapback]

1) I agree that all good candidates should get a fair shake, but I'm not sure any specific practice will achieve this. What will achieve it is minority coaches kicking the butts of the teams that didn't consider them. It's sorta the free market in action.

 

2) I think they should refuse interviews they think are a sham. In Shell's case, as an official within the league, I'm not sure this was an option. This stinks to me of the NFL helping a team abide by a rule for the sake of looking good. After the Mariucci thing, it would look bad if Saban was just hired, but let's face it....

 

No one else wants to bother, the NFL taps Shell on the shoulder..... L, A, M, E.

 

The worrisome part is that the rule ends up putting the minority guys in a bind. If they publicly refuse an interview (or maybe even privately), they may lose a chance to climb a rung on the ole boy network ladder. It could hurt them from actually being considered by another team down the line. "He didn't play along in the miami process, so don't interview him for the next slot."

 

3) I'd rather see good results than good intentions any day. I'm not buying this rule achieving results.

 

4) Mostly agreed. Bates is as much the "token interim coach interview" as Shell is the "token minority interview". It doesn't make it right.

 

5) I hope Jerry Gray is working until February.

 

6) How is this different than 3?

 

7) I'm not sure this is true. It seems to me there are 3 categories that get HCs hired. Hot coordinators, re-treads, hot college coaches. I can't remember Herman E's status, but the other two were hot coordinators (I think HE was as well). Marvin Lewis was VERY hot, even Saban-like, every team in the league would have given him a look for an opening. To me, HE exudes confidence and organization moreso than most coaches. I'm sure this was known throughout the league and made him a top candidate. You may be right on Smith. He was a good coordinator, but not killer (at least not in my book). Maybe the rule got him a look, maybe not. He seems to be doing ok so far.

 

I'll add an 8. The category minorities will be hired from is Hot coord. Re-treads like Denny Green and college HCs are few and far between. I don't know the numbers but it seems to me that there a fair and growing number of minority coords out there. As far as I know, there is no interview rule for these positions but the system is improving. Maybe this says something about what will come about gradually with HCs. The HCs are very pragmatic in hiring coords. I can buy that there is still some racism in hiring HCs, but the best way to fix it in my view is by forcing the owners to become pragmatic. When a guy like Marvin Lewis comes along, this clearly already happens in a hurry, but only one of the 3 channels is open now (hot coords), there aren't many re-treads floating around and the NFL can't fix the NCAAs problems so I think it will be gradual.

 

Do I get the Barry Brady award yet?

[ATBNG]

Good thread.

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know who might be a prospective candidate for this job if the Saban deal falls through? Is Shell that far fetched as their number #2 option?

 

As disgruntled as that game made me, Bates was a freakin' riot last night with all his nerdy sneers. I know he has no chance of staying, but they have played much, much better since he took over.