Accused death row inmate Troy Davis is denied clemency

[Fingon]

How is it possible to be a Christian, be pro life and pro death penalty all at the same time?

 

I don't know much about this guy or the case but I do know that there's weren't any special exceptions to the "Thou shall not kill" commandment.

 

I also know for a FACT that history has shown for almost 400 years that the death penalty does absolutely nothing to deter crime. Sure, it gets rid of the perpetrator but if I remember Sunday school correctly I'm pretty sure I was told not to judge others.

 

 

If we're going to continue executing people I would hope that there would be capital punishment for all those involved in executing someone who is later proven to be innocent. After all, capital punishment is the ultimate form of pre-meditated murder. That included cops, prosecutors and jurors along with whoever pulls the switch or injects the drug.

Because Christianity is a religion of death, not life. "He who has not sinned may cast the first stone" was added around 300 AD, and the bible is full of divine sanctioned murder. God ordering genocide? check. Elisha summoning bears to murder children for mocking his baldness? check

 

The old testament is an extremely disturbing book.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Fingon

[Sig1Hunter]

Because Christianity is a religion of death, not life. "He who has not sinned may cast the first stone" was added around 300 AD, and the bible is full of divine sanctioned murder. God ordering genocide? check. Elisha summoning bears to murder children for mocking his baldness? check

 

The old testament is an extremely disturbing book.

 

How did this turn into a thread about Christianity? These things never end well...

 

However, I will say that you have a very poor understanding of the purposes of the Old and New Testament. To say that Christianity is a "religion of death" and then cite Old Testament examples is interesting. Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that the Jewish faith is a "religion of death", since the Torah is primarily the Old Testament? Nah, it's easier to pick on Christians....

[bladiebla]

One could argue that saying Coulter's opinion piece did not provide facts, whilst linking wikipedia is quite curious. Anyway, I bolded a statement that you quoted and wonder why you included it? When I first read your post, the context indicated to me that this evidence that was excluded was some type of evidence that might help Davis. But, upon actually going through the links themselves and reading what was actually said, it was evidence that the prosecution wanted to get in but was excluded because a judge ruled the police obtained it improperly.

 

"In a hearing in November 1990, the judge barred forensic evidence from the shorts that had been retrieved during the police search of the Davis home. The judge ruled that Davis's mother did "not freely and voluntarily grant the police the right to search her home".[21] She had testified that police officers had threatened to break down her door unless she let them into her home. The Georgia Supreme Court upheld the exclusion of the evidence in May 1991, saying that the police should have obtained a search warrant.[25]" <---- from your same Wiki link.

 

Wikipedia can be a great reliable source as long as the text is sourced and factual, which with regards to this article seems to be (it contains both evidence for and against Davis), sure it will always have some sort of bias as all encylopia do have.

 

Exactly why I included it, did it contain gunpowder traces? Or bloodspatter? Or nothing direct at all. Does it support the prosecutors case at all? I dont care about it being obtained legal or not, I do care about what it would/could have implicated.

 

As I see it this could have gone either way, death sentence should be reserved to cases which are 100% clear and this one certainly isnt, it most certainly requires more investigation, bottomline is I'm not so sure the truth is uncovered. Then again the killer shot the guard then walked over to him, bent over him and shot him through the head while smiling. Then again such information would come from eyewitnesses and that's exactly where the issue lays in this case with regards to reliability as most have stated they were pressured by the police.

[bladiebla]

...The Ten Commandments...

 

You do realize that the Ten Commandments werenot part of the Bible and added later? The Bible as we know it in it's various variations is a political edit of political edits of the original manusscript.

[Nanker]

Honestly, I thought it was kind of funny. Ended up with a bit of spittle on my monitor

 

I'm a bit late to the party and just catching up. It does conjure an interesting mental image, one has to admit.

A bit like being hoisted on one's own petard.

 

I was watching CNN of all things yesterday morning and their bald legal expert was all over this case.

It actually surprised me how strident his support for upholding the conviction and execution was.

The news dollies seemed stunned as he took them down the 20+ year history of appeals and judicial reviews - each one of which were shot down.

Er - perhaps a poor choice of words there.

 

The "fact" that "7 of 9 witnesses have changed or recanted their testimony" is pure crap. The defense has several opportunities to put those people under oath - but they never did. Never. Why? As an innocent man wrongly convicted of a capital crime - wouldn't you demand that?

 

You do realize that the Ten Commandments werenot part of the Bible and added later? The Bible as we know it in it's various variations is a political edit of political edits of the original manusscript.

 

You are simply bat-shite crazy with that assertion.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Final words by Troy Davis:

 

"I'd like to address the MacPhail family. Let you know, despite the situation you are in, I'm not the one who personally killed your son, your father, your brother. I am innocent. The incident that happened that night is not my fault. I did not have a gun. All I can ask ... is that you look deeper into this case so that you really can finally see the truth. I ask my family and friends to continue to fight this fight. For those about to take my life, God have mercy on your souls. And may God bless your souls." ~Troy Davis

 

I wonder if the MacPhail family will be in denial and never read his final words? Honestly, if it was my family member that was murdered, this statement has to be unsettling when it comes to "closure." Well maybe not, if their minds are closed with self-righteousness and what they think is proper judgement they won't look further into this case, the risk is too great, the stakes too high and the minds too closed. That is the sad part about this whole situation. Again, if it was my family member (either side), I would want to know for sure either way... I could never be satisfied under these circumstances.

 

Lullaby: Smile in Sleep

 

Sleep, my son, and smile in sleep.

You will dream the world anew.

Watching you now sleep,

I feel the world's depleted force renew,

Feel the nerve expand and knit,

Feel a rustle in the blood,

Feel wink of warmth and stir of spirit,

As though spring woke in the heart's cold Underwood.

The vernal work is now begun.

 

Sleep, my son.

Sleep, son.

You will see the nestling fall.

Blood flecks grass of the rabbit form.

You will, of course, see all

The world's brute ox-heel wrong, and shrewd hand-harm.

Throats are soft to invite the blade.

Truth invites the journalist's lie.

Love bestowed mourns trust betrayed,

But the heart most mourns its own infidelity.

The greater, then, your obligation.

Dream perfection.

Dream, son.

 

When the diver leaves the board

To hang at gleam-height against the sky,

Trajectory is toward

An image hung perfect as light in his mind's wide eye.

So your dream will later serve you.

So now, dreaming, you serve me,

And give our hope new patent to

Enfranchise human possibility.

Grace undreamed is grace forgone.

Dream grace, son.

Sleep on.

 

Dream that sleep is a sunlit meadow

Drowsy with a dream of bees

Threading sun, and a shadow

Where you may lie lulled by their sunlit industries.

Let the murmurous bees of sleep

Tread down honey in the honeycomb.

Heart-deep now, your dream will keep

Sweet in that deep comb for time to come.

Dream the sweetness coming on.

Dream, sweet son.

Sleep on.

 

What if angry vectors veer

Around your sleeping head, and form?

 

There's never need to fear

Violence of the poor world's abstract storm.

For now you dream Reality.

Matter groans to touch your hand.

Matter lifts now like the sea

Toward that strong moon that is your dream's command.

Dream the power coming on.

Dream, strong son.

Sleep on.

 

 

~Robert Penn Warren

 

Edited September 23, 2011 by ExiledInIllinois

[KD in CA]

I don't necessarily disagree with you because I don't know one can possibly measure whether capital punishment is a significant deterrent for committing murders. But I'll offer my opinion:

 

A theory of crime deterrence I read in law school has stuck with me to this day. It is the theory that the likelihood of being caught far outweighs the severity of punishment. Would you be more likely to commit crime X that carried a 25 year sentence if you were 95% sure you'd get away with it or crime Y that carried a 5 year sentence if you were 70% sure you'd get away with it? Would you cheat on your spouse in a different country/city/situation that you were sure would never come back to you or would you simply flirt with someone in a location where it was possible someone might recognize you? (Obviously there is the qualifier that you would never do either of those things, but you understand the hypothetical).

 

I'm sure not everyone subscribes to this theory, but the more thought I've put into it, the more I believe it in. I think it explains why 'unlikely criminals' continue to commit violent crime. By unlikely criminals I mean people that don't otherwise engage in usual criminal behavior. When someone has decided to commit a murder (or allowed themselves to enter the mind state where such an act is now possible), I believe that they are primarily (if not exclusively) considering their odds of being caught, rather than what will happen to them if they are.

 

A related point is coupling the above theory with the very human behavior of compounding a bad situation into a worse one rather than dealing with any unpleasantness. Take Scott Peterson or Rae Carruth...two men who (theoretically) murdered their wives/girlfriends to avoid dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. Whatever social/emotional/financial or other hardships they would have endured by having a child OBVIOUSLY paled in comparison to facing the death penalty. But I believe in their minds they did this:

 

Situation A (having the child): Unpleasant situation x 100% probability = unacceptable

Situation B (murdering the s/o): (Unpleasant situation x 0% probability) + (severe punishment x low probability) = acceptable

 

Surely breaking this down into a mathematical equation is artificial, but you get my point. It explains how people can become capable of such heinous behavior and WHY they actually follow through with it.

 

 

Now, I'll wrap this up because I'm getting long-winded, but I do believe/concede that capital punishment is a great deterrent AFTER someone is caught. I believe that once someone's brain moves past considering the likelihood of being caught and into the reality that they have been, THEN the severity of the punishment clearly comes into play. That may be an obvious point, but I think it is where the correlation truly lies.

 

Excellent post as usual Bart. I think your theory and examples are pretty much spot on. And as a numbers guy I greatly appreciate the algebraic equation.

 

 

 

 

I'll also happily admit to being someone who simply appreciates the revenge factor. IMO, those who wantonly kill forfeit any 'human rights' and deserve to die, and while I would like to see it happen in the most unpleasant way possible, I'll settle for simple execution. I like knowing these non-humans get to face the same specter of death that they inflicted on an innocent person. I think it should happen much more often.

 

btw....Lawrence Russell Brewer was also put to death this week. I missed the outrage over that one.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Excellent post as usual Bart. I think your theory and examples are pretty much spot on. And as a numbers guy I greatly appreciate the algebraic equation.

 

 

 

 

I'll also happily admit to being someone who simply appreciates the revenge factor. IMO, those who wantonly kill forfeit any 'human rights' and deserve to die, and while I would like to see it happen in the most unpleasant way possible, I'll settle for simple execution. I like knowing these non-humans get to face the same specter of death that they inflicted on an innocent person. I think it should happen much more often.

 

btw....Lawrence Russell Brewer was also put to death this week. I missed the outrage over that one.

 

Big diff... LRB actually did the crime or at least remotely called for death:

 

"As far as any regrets, no, I have no regrets. No, I'd do it all over again, to tell you the truth." ~Lawrence Russell Brewer

[ieatcrayonz]

Final words by Troy Davis:

 

"I'd like to address the MacPhail family. Let you know, despite the situation you are in, I'm not the one who personally killed your son, your father, your brother. I am innocent. The incident that happened that night is not my fault. I did not have a gun. All I can ask ... is that you look deeper into this case so that you really can finally see the truth. I ask my family and friends to continue to fight this fight. For those about to take my life, God have mercy on your souls. And may God bless your souls." ~Troy Davis

 

I wonder if the MacPhail family will be in denial and never read his final words? Honestly, if it was my family member that was murdered, this statement has to be unsettling when it comes to "closure." Well maybe not, if their minds are closed with self-righteousness and what they think is proper judgement they won't look further into this case, the risk is too great, the stakes too high and the minds too closed. That is the sad part about this whole situation. Again, if it was my family member (either side), I would want to know for sure either way... I could never be satisfied under these circumstances.

 

 

 

 

My guess is that self righteousness didn't close their minds, but maybe a dead relative grinding out a shift a BK for a few extra bucks and a mountain of evidence and 20 years in court just may possibly have "closed their minds".

 

Big diff... LRB actually did the crime or at least remotely called for death:

 

"As far as any regrets, no, I have no regrets. No, I'd do it all over again, to tell you the truth." ~Lawrence Russell Brewer

So if he made up some mularkey about being innocent and/or remorseful he should have been let off?

[Sig1Hunter]

Exactly why I included it, did it contain gunpowder traces? Or bloodspatter? Or nothing direct at all. Does it support the prosecutors case at all? I dont care about it being obtained legal or not, I do care about what it would/could have implicated.

 

As I see it this could have gone either way, death sentence should be reserved to cases which are 100% clear and this one certainly isnt, it most certainly requires more investigation, bottomline is I'm not so sure the truth is uncovered. Then again the killer shot the guard then walked over to him, bent over him and shot him through the head while smiling. Then again such information would come from eyewitnesses and that's exactly where the issue lays in this case with regards to reliability as most have stated they were pressured by the police.

 

My point is that the evidence was apparently being entered by the prosecution. If it was exculpatory evidence being admitted by the defense (evidence favorable to Davis), his mother and his defense team would not object to the evidence as being obtained illegally through an unlawful search of her home. So, it is reasonable to surmise that this evidence that was excluded by the judge was evidence AGAINST Davis, and not for him.

 

The problem with someone on the outside looking in and saying "as I see it, it should have been handled such and such way" is that you were not privy to all the info. You are only privy to the info that the media WANTS you to be privy to. The info that is beneficial to them, and not the truth of the matter. Truth, or some version of it, is decided in court. This case has been through the legal ringer and evaluated by judge after judge after judge. As they see it (which is the important part, that many Americans seem to be forgetting) Davis was guilty and worthy of the death penalty.

 

You do realize that the Ten Commandments werenot part of the Bible and added later? The Bible as we know it in it's various variations is a political edit of political edits of the original manusscript.

 

Hey, if someone says it on a message board it must be true right? However, I believe that there is a massive historical record to prove otherwise.

[The Avenger]

Because Christianity is a religion of death, not life. "He who has not sinned may cast the first stone" was added around 300 AD, and the bible is full of divine sanctioned murder. God ordering genocide? check. Elisha summoning bears to murder children for mocking his baldness? check

 

The old testament is an extremely disturbing book.

 

Tell me about it - according to Leviticus 11 my kids aren't even supposed to have that pet rabbit - what type of sicko religion doesn't allow bunnies?

[The Poojer]

but yet the easter bunny is what easter is all about...talk about double standards......

 

Tell me about it - according to Leviticus 11 my kids aren't even supposed to have that pet rabbit - what type of sicko religion doesn't allow bunnies?

[DC Tom]

Final words by Troy Davis:

 

"I'd like to address the MacPhail family. Let you know, despite the situation you are in, I'm not the one who personally killed your son, your father, your brother. I am innocent. The incident that happened that night is not my fault. I did not have a gun. All I can ask ... is that you look deeper into this case so that you really can finally see the truth. I ask my family and friends to continue to fight this fight. For those about to take my life, God have mercy on your souls. And may God bless your souls." ~Troy Davis

 

I wonder if the MacPhail family will be in denial and never read his final words? Honestly, if it was my family member that was murdered, this statement has to be unsettling when it comes to "closure." Well maybe not, if their minds are closed with self-righteousness and what they think is proper judgement they won't look further into this case, the risk is too great, the stakes too high and the minds too closed. That is the sad part about this whole situation. Again, if it was my family member (either side), I would want to know for sure either way... I could never be satisfied under these circumstances.

 

Maybe not "in denial". But I doubt they're interested in "justice" at this point as much as "closure," which they got no matter if he was really innocent or not.

[NoSaint]

Wikipedia can be a great reliable source as long as the text is sourced and factual, which with regards to this article seems to be (it contains both evidence for and against Davis), sure it will always have some sort of bias as all encylopia do have.

 

Exactly why I included it, did it contain gunpowder traces? Or bloodspatter? Or nothing direct at all. Does it support the prosecutors case at all? I dont care about it being obtained legal or not, I do care about what it would/could have implicated.

 

As I see it this could have gone either way, death sentence should be reserved to cases which are 100% clear and this one certainly isnt, it most certainly requires more investigation, bottomline is I'm not so sure the truth is uncovered. Then again the killer shot the guard then walked over to him, bent over him and shot him through the head while smiling. Then again such information would come from eyewitnesses and that's exactly where the issue lays in this case with regards to reliability as most have stated they were pressured by the police.

 

Any conviction should be reserved for when it's 100%

 

He was convicted. You can't then take death off the table because you aren't sure he did it.

[ExiledInIllinois]

My guess is that self righteousness didn't close their minds, but maybe a dead relative grinding out a shift a BK for a few extra bucks and a mountain of evidence and 20 years in court just may possibly have "closed their minds".

 

 

So if he made up some mularkey about being innocent and/or remorseful he should have been let off?

 

No. No.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Maybe not "in denial". But I doubt they're interested in "justice" at this point as much as "closure," which they got no matter if he was really innocent or not.

 

There really is no closure. How can they say they got closure. Unless they are in denial. There simply is no closure under these circumstances.

 

The dumb St. Louis loving, Canadian hating simpleton actually made a point for once. Was the guy just making up some "mularkey" about not doing it? There is still doubt. Maybe I am naive. If my family member was the one that got killed, I still couldn't think that execution is "closure" under these circumstances... It (execution of an innocent man) would gnaw at me for the rest of my life more than if the guy sat in prison trying to exonerate himself for the next 40 years. Sitting in prison would be more "closure for me." Just sayin', everybody has a different take. To me, the legal system and like UConn said: "proper channels" is what bothers me. Either he killed the guy or not. I must be the simpleton. Gotta hand it to LRB (Lawrence Russell Brewer), there is no doubt there. Yet, that is easy. Somebody on the other side of argument (Davis) gets the "mularkey" rap because people can't see through the argument of: "He is only trying to save his own hide." Very petty because they can't get past their family member's untimely death and want shallow "revenge." Revenge on what could be anybody if the "proper channels" fell into line. Again, either he did it or didn't. Maybe as a family member I would have to look him in the eye and ask him that question.

 

People just love accepting any kinda of crappy job. There is a shred of doubt here... The guys sits in prison for the rest of his life then. IMO, the one innocent man that dies is worse than 1,000 known murderers that get the hangman's noose. Capital punishment should be a zero-fail mission. There is no getting it "wrong", even if "mularkey" is part of the equation. By getting it wrong, we undermine our whole system.

[ieatcrayonz]

There really is no closure. How can they say they got closure. Unless they are in denial. There simply is no closure under these circumstances.

 

The dumb St. Louis loving, Canadian hating simpleton actually made a point for once. Was the guy just making up some "mularkey" about not doing it? There is still doubt. Maybe I am naive. If my family member was the one that got killed, I still couldn't think that execution is "closure" under these circumstances... It (execution of an innocent man) would gnaw at me for the rest of my life more than if the guy sat in prison trying to exonerate himself for the next 40 years. Sitting in prison would be more "closure for me." Just sayin', everybody has a different take. To me, the legal system and like UConn said: "proper channels" is what bothers me. Either he killed the guy or not. I must be the simpleton. Gotta hand it to LRB (Lawrence Russell Brewer), there is no doubt there. Yet, that is easy. Somebody on the other side of argument (Davis) gets the "mularkey" rap because people can't see through the argument of: "He is only trying to save his own hide." Very petty because they can't get past their family member's untimely death and want shallow "revenge." Revenge on what could be anybody if the "proper channels" fell into line. Again, either he did it or didn't. Maybe as a family member I would have to look him in the eye and ask him that question.

 

People just love accepting any kinda of crappy job. There is a shred of doubt here... The guys sits in prison for the rest of his life then. IMO, the one innocent man that dies is worse than 1,000 known murderers that get the hangman's noose. Capital punishment should be a zero-fail mission. There is no getting it "wrong", even if "mularkey" is part of the equation. By getting it wrong, we undermine our whole system.

So what standard are we using? If a hollywood celebrity sees doubt, then there is doubt? If the victim was a cop, there is doubt? If there were only about 40 witnesses there is doubt? If the defense won't even call their own witnesses, there is doubt?

 

If Matthew McConaughy proposed a theory that LRB might be delusional and might not have done it, is that enough doubt? I mean he is a hollywood actor but the victim wasn't a cop. That would be a tough one.

[The Poojer]

you would find closure in paying for a person to sit in prison where he/she is afforded free health care, free(?) education, free cable tv, free gym membership, free and unlimited sex(ok...that was my pre-requisite levity) while each and every attempt to try and disprove the conviction is denied. Meanwhile your relative who was working a 2nd job was brutally slaughtered by this man(allegedly and in in the eyes of the justice system). He was convicted of the crime. Therefore he is NOT innocent and was unable to prove his 'innocence' or 'not guilty' for 20 years....

Heck, I'd confess to being the walrus as I was being led to the executioners room if i thought it would bring back the beatles...I really wish that Troy Davis would fade into bolivia like he was a week ago and where he belongs...he is a convicted murder who served the punishment that was handed down to him.

That's my WaWa coffee aided 2 cents....fwiw.

 

There really is no closure. How can they say they got closure. Unless they are in denial. There simply is no closure under these circumstances.

 

The dumb St. Louis loving, Canadian hating simpleton actually made a point for once. Was the guy just making up some "mularkey" about not doing it? There is still doubt. Maybe I am naive. If my family member was the one that got killed, I still couldn't think that execution is "closure" under these circumstances... It (execution of an innocent man) would gnaw at me for the rest of my life more than if the guy sat in prison trying to exonerate himself for the next 40 years. Sitting in prison would be more "closure for me." Just sayin', everybody has a different take. To me, the legal system and like UConn said: "proper channels" is what bothers me. Either he killed the guy or not. I must be the simpleton. Gotta hand it to LRB (Lawrence Russell Brewer), there is no doubt there. Yet, that is easy. Somebody on the other side of argument (Davis) gets the "mularkey" rap because people can't see through the argument of: "He is only trying to save his own hide." Very petty because they can't get past their family member's untimely death and want shallow "revenge." Revenge on what could be anybody if the "proper channels" fell into line. Again, either he did it or didn't. Maybe as a family member I would have to look him in the eye and ask him that question.

 

People just love accepting any kinda of crappy job. There is a shred of doubt here... The guys sits in prison for the rest of his life then. IMO, the one innocent man that dies is worse than 1,000 known murderers that get the hangman's noose. Capital punishment should be a zero-fail mission. There is no getting it "wrong", even if "mularkey" is part of the equation. By getting it wrong, we undermine our whole system.

[ExiledInIllinois]

you would find closure in paying for a person to sit in prison where he/she is afforded free health care, free(?) education, free cable tv, free gym membership, free and unlimited sex(ok...that was my pre-requisite levity) while each and every attempt to try and disprove the conviction is denied. Meanwhile your relative who was working a 2nd job was brutally slaughtered by this man(allegedly and in in the eyes of the justice system). He was convicted of the crime. Therefore he is NOT innocent and was unable to prove his 'innocence' or 'not guilty' for 20 years....

Heck, I'd confess to being the walrus as I was being led to the executioners room if i thought it would bring back the beatles...I really wish that Troy Davis would fade into bolivia like he was a week ago and where he belongs...he is a convicted murder who served the punishment that was handed down to him.

That's my WaWa coffee aided 2 cents....fwiw.

 

 

 

YES! Well at least MORE closure. That means nothing to me. (red & blue). I hope you don't really get hung up on this stuff too.

[The Poojer]

i don't really get caught up in it...i just get tired of the knee jerk reactions(not from you)..twitter was blowing up with celebrities adopting this as their cause of the day to make themselves seem relevant...as a result it trickled ALL the way down to us common folks. I don't give a rat's ass about this troy davis...he was convicted, denied retrials and served his punishment...no one cared about this cop killer 10 days ago...all of a sudden he is a martyr...and i agree...can you really get full closure in a tragedy like this? only thing they can do is move on and deal with it....

 

YES! Well at least MORE closure. That means nothing to me. (red & blue). I hope you don't really get hung up on this stuff too.