Helmet to helmet

[DrDawkinstein]

Dive into the water from a high elevation and see what happens If you bring your head up and look at the water when you hit. This premise that keeping your head up is safer depends on certain variables like how your body is positioned on impact. Standing uprights one thing, leaning forward is another.

 

How is your head any safer then the way God intended it, which is sitting straight on your body. I've worked a lot of construction and when someone says heads up from above you do not bring your head up to look, you let your hardhat take the brunt of the force squarely on the top or you will get injured or killed.

 

again, its a natural reaction to duck ones head and protect the face on high impact.

 

The premise that we have been discussing is based in a FOOTBALL-centric discussion. You're the one hopping off topic and bringing up "diving into a pool".

 

And "the way God intended it" "Heads up on a construction site"?!?!?Cmon dude. Youre really reaching and the scenarios arent even comparable. Just stop already.

 

Or better yet, go get some football pads on and try it yourself. Not sure how many more people need to tell you how it actually is before you start believing it...

[Beerball]

When you are leaning forward on a full run, expecting a player to hold his head up on contact is not even possible in my opinion. Players are not robots programed to smash their face into oncoming objects. Also sounds like a good way to break your neck.

 

Ducking ones head is a natural reaction.

Please Fig, are you saying it's easier to run full speed with your head pointed at the ground? Give it a try and let me know how it works out.

[Donald Duck]

The premise that we have been discussing is based in a FOOTBALL-centric discussion. You're the one hopping off topic and bringing up "diving into a pool".

 

And "the way God intended it" "Heads up on a construction site"?!?!?Cmon dude. Youre really reaching and the scenarios arent even comparable. Just stop already.

 

Or better yet, go get some football pads on and try it yourself. Not sure how many more people need to tell you how it actually is before you start believing it...

 

We automatically protect our face regardless of wearing a face mask because the top and back of your head is a hell of a lot more durable then your face. Maybe you can tell yourself Doc that in a split second by bringing your head up you will have less chance of spinal injury, but most people are going to react naturally and protect their face in my opinion.

 

We're not robots...

 

Please Fig, are you saying it's easier to run full speed with your head pointed at the ground? Give it a try and let me know how it works out.

 

Actually just the opposite and that's my point ball of Beer, you keep your head positioned normal, not turned up.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[DrDawkinstein]

We automatically protect our face regardless of wearing a face mask because the top and back of your head is a hell of a lot more durable then your face. Maybe you can tell yourself Doc that in a split second by bringing your head up you will have less chance of spinal injury, but most people are going to react naturally and protect their face in my opinion.

 

We're not talking about "most people", we're talking about FOOTBALL PLAYERS. Who are trained and conditioned to do so.

 

Im serious when I say to go get some pads on and try it. It only takes ONE TIME of hitting with your head down before you will never do it again. Drop your face, hit with the top of your head, and then PRAY that the numbness in your arm goes away and that you havent done permanent damage.

 

This is no longer a debate, as you are still refusing to even read or acknowledge what others (with real life experience) tell you. I dont even think youd listen if it was Dave Wannstache himself posting this. And I dont understand why you are being so stubborn when you obviously dont have any experience in the matter.

 

Hitting with the top of the helmet needs to be a very punishable offense in the NFL. It is not changing how the game is played, since it was never supposed to be played like that to begin with.

 

I gotta seriously tap out now before I end up interweb-angry at you.

[Donald Duck]

We're not talking about "most people", we're talking about FOOTBALL PLAYERS. Who are trained and conditioned to do so.

 

Im serious when I say to go get some pads on and try it. It only takes ONE TIME of hitting with your head down before you will never do it again. Drop your face, hit with the top of your head, and then PRAY that the numbness in your arm goes away and that you havent done permanent damage.

 

This is no longer a debate, as you are still refusing to even read or acknowledge what others (with real life experience) tell you. I dont even think youd listen if it was Dave Wannstache himself posting this. And I dont understand why you are being so stubborn when you obviously dont have any experience in the matter.

 

Hitting with the top of the helmet needs to be a very punishable offense in the NFL. It is not changing how the game is played, since it was never supposed to be played like that to begin with.

 

I gotta seriously tap out now before I end up interweb-angry at you.

 

 

 

hehe, from a medical standpoint I'm not totally disagreeing with you Doc, but you are asking to much from an athlete in my opinion to think proper tackling techniques are ever going to solve the problem of helmets impacting helmets at a high velocity on a football field. As I said in a previous post, DB's are looking to dislodge the football with vicious hits(not tackle) and If you can slam into them as an offensive player head first then the defensive player should be able to do the same. Or Start calling a penalty both ways.

 

Better to increase protection where needed on the head and neck or take the helmets off completely.

 

Note: The added padding on the top of the helmet I'm suggesting/stripes down the center(original post) would also decrease impact on the spinal column in my opinion, especially in conjunction with a neck brace which should become mandatory for all players

Edited September 21, 2011 by Fig Newton

[Scraps]

Dive into the water from a high elevation and see what happens If you bring your head up and look at the water when you hit. This premise that keeping your head up is safer depends on certain variables like how your body is positioned on impact. Standing/running upright is one thing, leaning forward on the run is another.

 

Bad comparison. If I dive into the water I bring my hands above my head and my hands break the impact with the water.

 

Yes, body position is an issue but that is part of the point of tilting your head back. Tilt your head back and your back will arch. You will make more contact with your shoulder pads or sternum and distribute the force better. Tilt your head forward and the entire force will go down you spinal column.

 

How is your head any safer then the way God intended it, which is sitting straight on your body.

 

God did not intend for you to run at full speed head first into someone weighing 200+ pounds who is running at full speed in the opposite direction. God did not design our bodies for football.

 

I've worked a lot of construction and when someone says heads up from above you do not bring your head up to look, you let your hardhat take the brunt of the force squarely on the top or you will get injured or killed.

 

That all works good for relatively small object like a nut, bolt or wrench falling from some height but if you drop a 200+ pound anvil onto someones head from a couple of stories high, he will die, hard hat or not.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Scraps

[Donald Duck]

Bad comparison. If I dive into the water I bring my hands above my head and my hands break the impact with the water.

 

Yes, body position is an issue but that is part of the point of tilting your head back. Tilt your head back and your back will arch. You will make more contact with your shoulder pads or sternum and distribute the force better. Tilt your head forward and the entire force will go down you spinal column.

 

 

 

God did not intend for you to run at full speed head first into someone weighing 200+ pounds who is running at full speed in the opposite direction. God did not design our bodies for football.

 

 

 

That all works good for relatively small object like a nut, bolt or wrench falling from some height but if you drop a 200+ pound anvil onto someones head from a couple of stories high, he will die, hard hat or not.

 

 

Just like players put their forearms out in front of them to lessen impact, but you don't see divers tilting there head up to protect themselves from spinal injury do you.

 

 

Never said to tilt your head forward, I said to leave your head in its normal position.

 

 

No God did not intend for us to do some of the things we do and is why protection devices are created for when we do them.

 

 

No argument on the 200 lbs falling on you from above...dead

Edited September 21, 2011 by Fig Newton

[billsfan1959]

Fig, what the league and officials are expecting Defensive players to do is KEEP THEIR HEAD UP, and tackle with proper form.

 

Dunta Robinson just gave us a classic example of how NOT to tackle.

 

Here is the clip, notice that his head is so low that his chin is tucked into his chest. That is extremely dangerous for not only the WR, but also for the tackler. The old rule is "If you are looking at the ground, you will end up there, injured".

 

You must must must be able to SEE what you are hitting.

 

Robinson came in using the top of his helmet as a weapon, and launched his helmet and shoulder into the WR.

 

That is NOT how you're supposed to tackle. That goes against EVERY tackling form rule they teach since Pop Warner.

 

Head up, lead with your facemask/shoulder, WRAP and DRIVE. The worst part is, when Maclin catches the ball, Robinson is in good position and in good form to use proper tackling. He CHOOSES at the last second to turn himself into a missile and launch into Maclin.

 

Had he used proper tackling form, Robinson could have had an even BIGGER hit on Maclin, and not be $40k lighter.

 

It's lazy and stupid on the defenders part, and they need to be fined/suspended.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=fB6TEXTJceo

 

Agree 100%. Proper tackling has gone by the wayside and has been replaced with the hope of an ESPN highlight hit. Hate it.

[Scraps]

Just like players put their forearms out in front of them to lessen impact, but you don't see divers tilting there head up to protect themselves from spinal injury do you.

 

 

Never said to tilt your head forward, I said to leave your head in its normal position.

 

 

If Dunta Robinson had put his hands and arms forward, he probably would not have been flagged. He dropped his head forward and led with his head. Same as Kevin Everett, Dennis Byrd and Marc Buoniconti, and they all ended up with broken necks.

 

Continuing to compare diving to football is stupid beyond belief.

[Donald Duck]

If Dunta Robinson had put his hands and arms forward, he probably would not have been flagged. He dropped his head forward and led with his head. Same as Kevin Everett, Dennis Byrd and Marc Buoniconti, and they all ended up with broken necks.

 

Continuing to compare diving to football is stupid beyond belief.

 

Do you have a point here besides calling my comparison stupid?

 

 

High diving is another high impact sport, at 50 ft the water is like hitting concrete, at 100 it could kill you.

 

You guys are making a huge deal out of using proper tackling techniques and it had nothing to do with half the serious neck injuries that have occurred in the game of football.

 

So what your saying is proper tackling techniques will help the Offense now also,

 

 

talk about stupid...

Edited September 21, 2011 by Fig Newton

[Jauronimo]

Do you have a point here besides calling my comparison stupid?

 

 

High diving is another high impact sport, at 50 ft the water is like hitting concrete, at 100 it could kill you.

 

You guys are making a huge deal out of using proper tackling techniques and it had nothing to do with half the serious neck injuries that have occurred in the game of football.

 

So what your saying is proper tackling techniques will help the Offense now also,

 

talk about stupid...

Yes, not absorbing helmet-to-helmet hits will benefit the offense. What don't you understand about that? What don't you understand about the link I provided for you regarding keeping your head up? Why won't you just admit that you're totally wrong.

 

As soon as a linebacker is a fluid that allows for total displacement and you can lessen the collision by disrupting a tackler's surface tension, then you're diving analogy won't be the dumbest thing I've read this month. And I read Sullivan and Jamele Hill.

[Donald Duck]

Yes, not absorbing helmet-to-helmet hits will benefit the offense. What don't you understand about that? What don't you understand about the link I provided for you regarding keeping your head up? Why won't you just admit that you're totally wrong.

 

As soon as a linebacker is a fluid that allows for total displacement and you can lessen the collision by disrupting a tackler's surface tension, then you're diving analogy won't be the dumbest thing I've read this month. And I read Sullivan and Jamele Hill.

 

 

Marc Buoniconti: the new rules are going to put officials in a tough position.

 

"There are going to be other instances where people are having head to head contact and it's not intentional," Buoniconti said. "It's hard to play football and not hit your head, it's nearly impossible."

[thebug]

Do yourself a favor and delete this thread. You are digging yourself to China.

[Donald Duck]

Yes, not absorbing helmet-to-helmet hits will benefit the offense. What don't you understand about that? What don't you understand about the link I provided for you regarding keeping your head up? Why won't you just admit that you're totally wrong.

 

As soon as a linebacker is a fluid that allows for total displacement and you can lessen the collision by disrupting a tackler's surface tension, then you're diving analogy won't be the dumbest thing I've read this month. And I read Sullivan and Jamele Hill.

 

 

I'm damn sure not totally wrong in saying you are not going to get every player on the football field to get there head up on impact and to suggest so is stupidity.

[Jauronimo]

Marc Buoniconti: the new rules are going to put officials in a tough position.

 

"There are going to be other instances where people are having head to head contact and it's not intentional," Buoniconti said. "It's hard to play football and not hit your head, it's nearly impossible."

Nice quote. What does it have to do with anything? How does that support your "lower your head to avoid neck injury, I don't care what science and medicine say" agenda? There will be helmet to helmet contact even while attempting clean hits, but its more likely to be glancing than when a player leads with the helmet intentionally.

 

See Brandon Merriweather or Dunta Robinson for an example of launching yourself head first into the ball carrier. Their arms are at their sides, its obvious they aren't even trying to lay a clean hit or tackle. Thats what the NFL is trying to remove. How anyone can argue the contrary is just baffling.

 

You can't prevent murder, should that be decriminalized and we all just wear bullet proof shirts?

Edited September 21, 2011 by Jauronimo

[Donald Duck]

Do yourself a favor and delete this thread. You are digging yourself to China.

 

Let me repeat this,

 

Marc Buoniconti: the new rules are going to put officials in a tough position.

 

"There are going to be other instances where people are having head to head contact and it's not intentional," Buoniconti said. "It's hard to play football and not hit your head, it's nearly impossible."

 

 

So a statement from a player that has actually suffered the injury isn't good enough for you...

 

Nice quote. What does it have to do with anything? How does that support your "lower your head to avoid neck injury, I don't care what science and medicine say" agenda? There will be helmet to helmet contact even while attempting clean hits, but its more likely to be glancing than when a player leads with the helmet intentionally.

 

See Brandon Merriweather or Dunta Robinson for an example of launching yourself head first into the ball carrier. Their arms are at their sides, its obvious they aren't even trying to lay a clean hit or tackle. Thats what the NFL is trying to remove. How anyone can argue the contrary is just baffling.

 

You can't prevent murder, should that be decriminalized and we all just wear bullet proof shirts?

 

 

I did not say to lower your head anywhere on this thread, but players damn sure do it and it will never change

 

How about watching some of the RB's in the NFL and see how many times there head is lowered when making contact with the defensive players.

 

It happens all the time

Edited September 21, 2011 by Fig Newton

[shrader]

Just like players put their forearms out in front of them to lessen impact, but you don't see divers tilting there head up to protect themselves from spinal injury do you.

 

Divers don't look up (or down I suppose) because that would create a bigger splash. It has absolutely nothing to do with any potential injury.

 

And as for the latest addition to this thread, I really have to ask. Are you a troll or are you really this dense?

[Donald Duck]

Divers don't look up (or down I suppose) because that would create a bigger splash. It has absolutely nothing to do with any potential injury.

 

And as for the latest addition to this thread, I really have to ask. Are you a troll or are you really this dense?

 

 

I like to debate things and calling me a troll for doing so is brilliant buddy, nothing better to say, attack the poster, I know how it goes,

 

Good Lord, common sense would tell you bigger splash means harder impact then preferred has occurred somewhere on the divers head or body.

 

This thread was started in an effort to discuss ways to protect players from helmet to helmet collisions. I admit proper tackling techniques would be one of them. I also admitted to DrDare from a medical standpoint lowering your head increases the chance of severe spinal column injury. I respect the Docs opinion and have no argument that what he says is true. Its common knowledge and nothing new to me.

 

With that being said I'm damn sure not going to admit proper tackling techniques or keeping your head up is going to stop all severe spinal chord injuries from happening in the game of football because its simply not true.

 

So don't call me dense because I'm searching for a solution to a problem that is life threatening/ altering to athletes we know and love.

 

You don't like my thread, don't post on it...

Edited September 21, 2011 by Fig Newton

[shrader]

A simple "yes" would suffice.

[Donald Duck]

A simple "yes" would suffice.

 

 

Yes Shrader, I can be very hard headed sometimes...