Helmet to helmet

[DrDawkinstein]

Helmet to Helmet contact will never go away, better to come up with solutions to prevent injury when it happens then to ask players to do something that is next to impossible for a DB at high speeds.

 

Neck brace would go a long way in preventing spinal chord injuries just like padding on the outside of a helmet will reduce whiplash

 

It will not go away. But it can be REDUCED significantly.

 

It will never go away completely. It's always been a part of the sport. But it's a bigger deal now because this trend of the "knock out missile" hit has just started in the last 15-20 years. And now its how ALL DBs seem to hit.

 

It's not a new thing, but it is a new problem.

 

Reduce it back to only happening accidentally, and everyone will be fine. No need to change the entire game. Just enforce proper tackling.

 

I'm guessing (and again no insult) that you are in your early 20s at best. I only say that because you talk like someone that has only known this type of tackling so you THINK it's "normal", but it's not.

 

It is not impossible for DBs to tackle properly, they have just stopped because the "missile" looks better on highlight reels, and because they get to stand over the guy and pound their chest (when it works).

 

It's incorrect, lazy, and dangerous.

[shrader]

Completely true. Your neck will bend back, it doesn't go down very far before you cause serious spinal injury. Playing hockey we were always taught that if you're going into the boards head first, head up, take the blow on your face and NOT the top of your head.

 

And I'd swear it saved me at least once. I walked away with a shoulder injury, but the key phrase there is "walked away".

 

Long story short, keeping your head up spreads the impact of the collision across more of the neck and into the shoulders. With the head down, vertebrae compress and nothing good comes from that.

 

Opinions are great and all, but that doesn't stop them from being blatantly wrong.

[Donald Duck]

It will not go away. But it can be REDUCED significantly.

 

It will never go away completely. It's always been a part of the sport. But it's a bigger deal now because this trend of the "knock out missile" hit has just started in the last 15-20 years. And now its how ALL DBs seem to hit.

 

It's not a new thing, but it is a new problem.

 

Reduce it back to only happening accidentally, and everyone will be fine. No need to change the entire game. Just enforce proper tackling.

 

I'm guessing (and again no insult) that you are in your early 20s at best. I only say that because you talk like someone that has only known this type of tackling so you THINK it's "normal", but it's not.

 

It is not impossible for DBs to tackle properly, they have just stopped because the "missile" looks better on highlight reels, and because they get to stand over the guy and pound their chest (when it works).

 

It's incorrect, lazy, and dangerous.

 

Why the insult?

 

No, I'm not in my 20's and common sense in my opinion should tell you its not fair for the offense to lead with their head and not the defense.

 

Hits with the shoulder or shoulder tackles are just as frequent as anything else and DB's are looking to dislodge the football/prevent reception nine times out of ten, not tackle with proper tackling techniques.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[DrDawkinstein]

And I'd swear it saved me at least once. I walked away with a shoulder injury, but the key phrase there is "walked away".

 

Long story short, keeping your head up spreads the impact of the collision across more of the neck and into the shoulders. With the head down, vertebrae compress and nothing good comes from that.

 

Opinions are great and all, but that doesn't stop them from being blatantly wrong.

 

Perfectly explained.

 

And until you've played a contact sport and taken a hit with your head down, and get that Arm Stinger, you just dont know.

 

No, I'm not in my 20's and common sense in my opinion should tell you its not fair for the offense to lead with their head and not the defense.

 

Hits with the shoulder or shoulder tackles are just as frequent as anything else and DB's are looking to dislodge the football/prevent reception nine times out of ten, not tackle with proper tackling techniques.

 

Im not sure what youre arguing anymore, so Im going to say "Good talk" and leave it at that.

 

There are a few posters in this thread that have played contact sports, and have been properly trained, telling you how it actually works. Take our word for it.

Edited September 20, 2011 by DrDareustein

[shrader]

Im not sure what youre arguing anymore, so Im going to say "Good talk" and leave it at that.

 

There are a few posters in this thread that have played contact sports, and have been properly trained, telling you how it actually works. Take our word for it.

 

And googling something like "preventing spinal injuries", the same exact message comes up first in just about every single result. But clearly they're all wrong.

[Donald Duck]

Perfectly explained.

 

And until you've played a contact sport and taken a hit with your head down, and get that Arm Stinger, you just dont know.

 

 

 

Im not sure what youre arguing anymore, so Im going to say "Good talk" and leave it at that.

 

There are a few posters in this thread that have played contact sports, and have been properly trained, telling you how it actually works. Take our word for it.

 

There are very plenty of folks out there who do have actual playing experience that disagree with penalizing the defense for leading with the head.

 

As far as googling spinal chord injuries,(shrader) its under the premise the player will see whats coming at him and protect his head and neck accordingly and less to do with the actual impact, or how its distributed. Head up, less injuries occur because the player reacts accordingly. Again, its a natural reaction to duck ones head vs smashing your face into an oncoming object.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[DrDawkinstein]

There are very plenty of folks out there who do have actual playing experience that disagree with penalizing the defense for leading with the head.

 

As far as googling spinal chord injuries,(shrader) its under the premise the player will see whats coming at him and protect his head and neck accordingly and less to do with the actual impact, or how its distributed. Head up, less injuries occur because the player reacts accordingly.

 

Those people are idiots. That's all I can say about that.

 

If you want to believe them, fine. But they are technically, and medically incorrect.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, its a matter of technique fact and anatomical/medical fact.

 

No response you come up with is going to make me unlearn what I spent 20 years learning and experiencing first hand.

 

I tried to offer some insight, but it doesnt seem to be what you want to hear, so...

 

Go Bills!!

[Jauronimo]

There are very plenty of folks out there who do have actual playing experience that disagree with penalizing the defense for leading with the head.

 

As far as googling spinal chord injuries,(shrader) its under the premise the player will see whats coming at him and protect his head and neck accordingly and less to do with the actual impact, or how its distributed. Head up, less injuries occur because the player reacts accordingly.

False. As I said, if you are going head first into the boards in a hockey arena, every coach player, Dr., trainer, will tell you to tkae the collision with your head up. This advice isn't offered to help a player try an avoid a fixed object. Its drilled into your mind so you can avoid paralysis.

 

http://www.heads-upstabilizer.com/spinal_injuries_in_hockey.html

[shrader]

There are very plenty of folks out there who do have actual playing experience that disagree with penalizing the defense for leading with the head.

 

As far as googling spinal chord injuries,(shrader) its under the premise the player will see whats coming at him and protect his head and neck accordingly and less to do with the actual impact, or how its distributed. Head up, less injuries occur because the player reacts accordingly. Again, its a natural reaction to duck ones head vs smashing your face into an oncoming object.

 

And it's a natural reaction to test out a hot surface with the palm of your hand or finger tips. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If you educate people on the right ways to approach a scenario, they are far more likely to ignore those impulses and actually do what is far more safe. At one point, just like you, I assumed it would be safer to take a collision with the top of my head. Luckily that misconception was taught out of me in my early teens.

[Donald Duck]

Those people are idiots. That's all I can say about that.

 

If you want to believe them, fine. But they are technically, and medically incorrect.

 

It's not a matter of opinion, its a matter of technique fact and anatomical/medical fact.

 

No response you come up with is going to make me unlearn what I spent 20 years learning and experiencing first hand.

 

I tried to offer some insight, but it doesnt seem to be what you want to hear, so...

 

Go Bills!!

 

 

Just because I'm still debating the issue doesn't mean I'm not absorbing/respecting your opinion Doc, but on the other hand neck injuries can occur in both instances and for you to imply otherwise is incorrect.

 

And it's a natural reaction to test out a hot surface with the palm of your hand or finger tips. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. If you educate people on the right ways to approach a scenario, they are far more likely to ignore those impulses and actually do what is far more safe. At one point, just like you, I assumed it would be safer to take a collision with the top of my head. Luckily that misconception was taught out of me in my early teens.

 

 

ducking ones head is a natural reaction vs smashing into something face first.

 

The difference here is players are going to touch/ get burned on the hot burner because it just goes with the territory.

 

 

There are no actual percentages(that I'm aware of) to differentiate between injuries occurring with the head up or injuries to the neck that occur with the head down. More injuries are occurring with the head down in the NFL and other sports because the head is down more often then not on high impact collisions.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[DrDawkinstein]

Just because I'm still debating the issue doesn't mean I'm not absorbing/respecting your opinion Doc, but on the other hand neck injuries can occur in both instances and for you to imply otherwise is incorrect.

 

Its all good.

 

Any injury can happen anytime. The point is, when you tackle properly, you GREATLY reduce the chance.

 

It's a violent, high speed, contact sport. That is the exact reason why they need to curb improper technique which is only serving to INCREASE the risk of injury.

 

Head up, both D and O players have a slight chance of being injured. Head down, much more likely for spinal injuries, concussions, etc. to both players.

 

ducking ones head is a natural reaction vs smashing into something face first.

 

The difference here is players are going to touch/ get burned on the hot burner because it just goes with the territory.

 

not really though. when you spend years learning to tackle with your head up, you trust your facemask and equipment. It's natural for an untrained person with no helmet on, sure. But these guys who are pros know better by now. I knew better before I got to high school. It's not that big of a deal to lead with your face.

 

Robinson didnt just make Maclin touch the burner, he threw the whole stove at him.

Edited September 20, 2011 by DrDareustein

[Chandemonium]

Just because I'm still debating the issue doesn't mean I'm not absorbing/respecting your opinion Doc, but on the other hand neck injuries can occur in both instances and for you to imply otherwise is incorrect.

Where did he imply otherwise? Can it happen in both situations? Sure. It's just significantly more likely with your head down. I can die if I hit a tree in my car going 30mph wearing my seatbelt.I'm way more likely to die hitting the same tree at 100mph not wearing my seatbelt. The same premise applies here. You're not going to eliminate all injuries, but by taking simple, reasonable preventative measures you greatly reduce the risk.

[shrader]

I kind of want to dive into a brick wall while leading with the top of my head right now.

[DrDawkinstein]

I kind of want to dive into a brick wall while leading with the top of my head right now.

 

Kinda feels like we already have been, hahaha. JK.

 

But this thread HAS gotten me pumped to hit something. Too much talk, and too much reminiscing about my playing days. Wish I had a tackling dummy here, or someone to run some hitting drills with!

[Donald Duck]

Where did he imply otherwise? Can it happen in both situations? Sure. It's just significantly more likely with your head down. I can die if I hit a tree in my car going 30mph wearing my seatbelt.I'm way more likely to die hitting the same tree at 100mph not wearing my seatbelt. The same premise applies here. You're not going to eliminate all injuries, but by taking simple, reasonable preventative measures you greatly reduce the risk.

 

 

Death from head injury occurs frequently because of the whiplash effect it has on your brain inside the head. Same way shaking a baby hard can cause severe injury.

 

Its all good.

 

Any injury can happen anytime. The point is, when you tackle properly, you GREATLY reduce the chance.

 

It's a violent, high speed, contact sport. That is the exact reason why they need to curb improper technique which is only serving to INCREASE the risk of injury.

 

Head up, both D and O players have a slight chance of being injured. Head down, much more likely for spinal injuries, concussions, etc. to both players.

 

 

 

not really though. when you spend years learning to tackle with your head up, you trust your facemask and equipment. It's natural for an untrained person with no helmet on, sure. But these guys who are pros know better by now. I knew better before I got to high school. It's not that big of a deal to lead with your face.

 

Robinson didnt just make Maclin touch the burner, he threw the whole stove at him.

 

 

 

appreciate the insight Doc

 

Kinda feels like we already have been, hahaha. JK.

 

But this thread HAS gotten me pumped to hit something. Too much talk, and too much reminiscing about my playing days. Wish I had a tackling dummy here, or someone to run some hitting drills with!

 

 

hehe

[Endless Ike]

Almost no one in the NFL uses proper form while tackling. They're too big and too strong for it to make a difference 99% of the time, so they don't do it.

[flomoe]

Should the Raider safety that went helmet to helmet on Stevie on Sunday be fined? He did get penalized 15 yards and the shot he gave Stevie was clearly a blow to the head.

 

It might be the first offense by that guy, I don't know, but the Raiders were definitely throwing some cheap shots around out there.

[Bills Analyst]

If you wantto be reminded about what can happen with your head down, look at this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SoDPFhT-u8

[Scraps]

The blow is more evenly distributed and partially absorbed through the shoulder pads when your head is straight. Turning your head up on impact would increase the chance of severe injury in my opinion.(break your neck)

 

You have that completely backwards. If you spear someone, there is nothing to transfer the force of that impact to your shoulder pads. The force is completely transferred by the vertabrae in your neck causing compression fractures. This is what happened to Kevin Everett, Dennis Byrd and Marc Buoniconti. Keeping your head up will allow more contact with your padding and more distribution of the force.

 

Bend down and then hold your head all the way and tell me how your neck is going to bend further without breaking. RB's lower there head constantly plowing for more yards, why can they do it and not the defense? Again, ducking your head is a natural reaction vs smashing your face into an oncoming obstacle.

 

Well it isn't particularly smart for a running back to do that but they are primarily trying to get their pads lower, to get more leverage and get more yardage. They aren't trying to hurt someone.

 

While it may not be a natural reaction to lift your head and smash your face into an oncoming obstacle, running into an obstacle as fast and hard as you can is not natural either.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Scraps

[Donald Duck]

You have that completely backwards. If you spear someone, there is nothing to transfer the force of that impact to your shoulder pads. The force is completely transferred by the vertabrae in your neck causing compression fractures. This is what happened to Kevin Everett, Dennis Byrd and Marc Buoniconti. Keeping your head up will allow more contact with your padding and more distribution of the force.

 

 

 

Well it isn't particularly smart for a running back to do that but they are primarily trying to get their pads lower, to get more leverage and get more yardage. They aren't trying to hurt someone.

 

While it may not be a natural reaction to lift your head and smash your face into an oncoming obstacle, running into an obstacle as fast and hard as you can is not natural either.

 

 

Dive into the water from a high elevation and see what happens If you bring your head up and look at the water when you hit. This premise that keeping your head up is safer depends on certain variables like how your body is positioned on impact. Standing/running upright is one thing, leaning forward on the run is another.

 

How is your head any safer then the way God intended it, which is sitting straight on your body. I've worked a lot of construction and when someone says heads up from above you do not bring your head up to look, you let your hardhat take the brunt of the force squarely on the top or you will get injured or killed.

 

again, its a natural reaction to duck ones head and protect the face on high impact.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton