Helmet to helmet

[Donald Duck]

This helmet to helmet rule is getting way out of hand and in my opinion its practically impossible in some instances to make a play without going helmet to helmet. When a player goes to make a tackle at extremely high speeds its hard for a player to make sure his head isn't in the way. Tackles are made with shoulders and arms so its inevitable the head becomes a problem on a high tackle. I'm not sure what officials are expecting a defensive player to do and I'm seeing what should be called a normal hit/tackle get called for a penalty more often then not. QB's can't be hit low, yet when the defense goes high on the QB it increases the chance of helmet to helmet and I've seen way to many tackles called for penalty's that shouldn't be and its hurting the game.

 

I've mentioned ways to increase the protection of the helmet in the past by taking the stripes down the center and the teams logo and making them elevated above the hard shell of the helmet with a softer material which would cushion the impact on contact. Whats causing most of the problem is the hard shell of the helmet connecting with the hard shell of another helmet causing a whiplash affect. The inside padding does very little to prevent this, padding on the outside on the other hand would cut down the impact/whiplash considerably.

 

Hard shelled helmets with no outside protection is the biggest cause of head injury in my opinion and a softer helmet on the outside will go a long way in eliminating the problem.

 

Note: This thread was meant not only to identify a problem that will never go away, but to offer up a solution that would help protect the players. Helmet to helmet rule gives the offense an unfair advantage in my opinion. RB's lead with their head, everyone leads with their head for that matter, and unless you want to cut the heads off the players it will never change

[Alaska Darin]

I vote Gary Busey helmet.

[Jauronimo]

Here's a prototype of Fig's helmet.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jauronimo

[DrDawkinstein]

Fig, what the league and officials are expecting Defensive players to do is KEEP THEIR HEAD UP, and tackle with proper form.

 

Dunta Robinson just gave us a classic example of how NOT to tackle.

 

Here is the clip, notice that his head is so low that his chin is tucked into his chest. That is extremely dangerous for not only the WR, but also for the tackler. The old rule is "If you are looking at the ground, you will end up there, injured".

 

You must must must be able to SEE what you are hitting.

 

Robinson came in using the top of his helmet as a weapon, and launched his helmet and shoulder into the WR.

 

That is NOT how you're supposed to tackle. That goes against EVERY tackling form rule they teach since Pop Warner.

 

Head up, lead with your facemask/shoulder, WRAP and DRIVE. The worst part is, when Maclin catches the ball, Robinson is in good position and in good form to use proper tackling. He CHOOSES at the last second to turn himself into a missile and launch into Maclin.

 

Had he used proper tackling form, Robinson could have had an even BIGGER hit on Maclin, and not be $40k lighter.

 

It's lazy and stupid on the defenders part, and they need to be fined/suspended.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB6TEXTJceo

Edited September 20, 2011 by DrDareustein

[Jauronimo]

All you need to know about helmet to helmet hits was summed up by Channing Crowder:

 

"If I get a chance to knock somebody out, I'm going to knock them out and take what they give me," Crowder said Wednesday. "They give me a helmet, I'm going to use it."

 

At no point in that quote did he mention its too hard not use his helmet as a weapon. Its obvious that he does this on purpose and its pretty clear from watching the games that he is not alone in that sentiment.

[eball]

Atlanta's Robinson needs to be suspended. The hits he put on Jackson last season, and Maclin Sunday night, were almost identical. Until you send these guys the message they have to be looking at what they're hitting, crap like this will continue.

[Donald Duck]

Here's a prototype of Fig's helmet.

 

 

hehe

[DrDawkinstein]

All you need to know about helmet to helmet hits was summed up by Channing Crowder:

 

"If I get a chance to knock somebody out, I'm going to knock them out and take what they give me," Crowder said Wednesday. "They give me a helmet, I'm going to use it."

 

At no point in that quote did he mention its too hard not use his helmet as a weapon. Its obvious that he does this on purpose and its pretty clear from watching the games that he is not alone in that sentiment.

 

 

Atlanta's Robinson needs to be suspended. The hits he put on Jackson last season, and Maclin Sunday night, were almost identical. Until you send these guys the message they have to be looking at what they're hitting, crap like this will continue.

 

 

Yes, and yes. It's the lazy way of tackling that they CHOOSE to do. And it will not stop until players are being suspended.

 

I remember watching football in the early 90s when this tackling trend started, and cringing whenever I saw it.

 

Besides the risk for big injuries to all players involved, its just BAD tackling. How many times have we seen bigger receivers bounce off a "missile" tackle and continue upfield?!?

 

Head up, breakdown, wrap and drive. It's simple. But these guys want to "prove" they can just knock you down with a shoulder and helmet like they are tough. So stupid.

[Donald Duck]

Fig, what the league and officials are expecting Defensive players to do is KEEP THEIR HEAD UP, and tackle with proper form.

 

Dunta Robinson just gave us a classic example of how NOT to tackle.

 

Here is the clip, notice that his head is so low that his chin is tucked into his chest. That is extremely dangerous for not only the WR, but also for the tackler. The old rule is "If you are looking at the ground, you will end up there, injured".

 

You must must must be able to SEE what you are hitting.

 

Robinson came in using the top of his helmet as a weapon, and launched his helmet and shoulder into the WR.

 

That is NOT how you're supposed to tackle. That goes against EVERY tackling form rule they teach since Pop Warner.

 

Head up, lead with your facemask/shoulder, WRAP and DRIVE. The worst part is, when Maclin catches the ball, Robinson is in good position and in good form to use proper tackling. He CHOOSES at the last second to turn himself into a missile and launch into Maclin.

 

Had he used proper tackling form, Robinson could have had an even BIGGER hit on Maclin, and not be $40k lighter.

 

It's lazy and stupid on the defenders part, and they need to be fined/suspended.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=fB6TEXTJceo

 

 

Good example Dr Dare,

 

In my opinion there is a good possibility the defender meant to make a shoulder tackle but because of the speed and inability to precisely time the hit/placement the players ended up going helmet to helmet. Nobody with any common sense wants to cost their team 15 yards.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[KD in CA]

Atlanta's Robinson needs to be suspended. The hits he put on Jackson last season, and Maclin Sunday night, were almost identical. Until you send these guys the message they have to be looking at what they're hitting, crap like this will continue.

 

 

Nope....another slap on the wrist (seriously, a smaller fine than they assessed him for his last offense??). I don't know why everyone is still crying about the 'new rules' when it's pretty clear the league is just paying lip service and letting guys like Robinson continue to launch and lead with the head.

[Thoner7]

Fig, what the league and officials are expecting Defensive players to do is KEEP THEIR HEAD UP, and tackle with proper form.

 

That is not true. The way they teach people to tackle these days is not with the top of the shoulder, but with the sternum/breast bone. Your facemask should be in the other guys chest or meeting or just to the side of the ball carrier's facemask (hitting facemask to facemask is still 'helmet to helmet'). In football its impossible to think a played can position himself perfectly while being blocked, the ball carrier juking, etc.

 

Yet last season when Harrison got flagged (and later fined) for hitting Fitz right under his chin, he had a perfect form tackle. The replay showed that he barely hit Fitz helmet, if at all. Harrison burried his facemask in Fitz's chest, and he was still fined after the game.

 

The NFL cannot tell players to form tackle with their heads up when A) doing so would violate another rule (helmet to helmet) and B) they fine you for performing a textbook form tackle.

 

I saw a perfectly good hit over the weekend flagged for unnecessary roughness. it wasn’t to the head, low, or to a defenseless receiver. The reciever dropped the pass on the pla, because of the hit - how is that not 'necessary'? I have seen countless QB tackles being called for 'driving him into the ground' when it wasnt at all.

 

The NFL has turned into a pussified league with no defense allowed. Just look at the passing stats from this season. 300 yards used to be an accomplishment, now if you dont have 300+ or 3+tds its a bad day for a QB. I wouldnt be so pissed if it was jsut the NFL they were ruining, but these rules inevitablly trickle down to college and HS football, which ruins the game.

 

I hate Goodell.

[DrDawkinstein]

Good example Dr Dare,

 

In my opinion there is a good possibility the defender meant to make a shoulder tackle/hit but because of the speed ended up going helmet to helmet. Nobody with any common sense wants to cost their team 15 yards.

 

Nope, watch the clip. When Maclin is first coming at him, he is in a good breakdown stance, head up. Right as Maclin gets to him, he drops his head ALL the way down and launches into him helmet first.

 

Bad form that he chose to use. He was already in position to use proper form, then chose to go for the "big hit".

 

I also blame coaching in this. Using proper tackling form should be second nature to these guys at this point of their life/career. I played football and rugby from 6 years old through college, and proper tackling became a reflex. These players have just stopped listening to their coaches, or the coaches arent saying anything about it. And if there are ANY coaches teaching this, they need to be fired and banned from all levels.

[Donald Duck]

Nope, watch the clip. When Maclin is first coming at him, he is in a good breakdown stance, head up. Right as Maclin gets to him, he drops his head ALL the way down and launches into him helmet first.

 

Bad form that he chose to use. He was already in position to use proper form, then chose to go for the "big hit".

 

I also blame coaching in this. Using proper tackling form should be second nature to these guys at this point of their life/career. I played football and rugby from 6 years old through college, and proper tackling became a reflex. These players have just stopped listening to their coaches, or the coaches arent saying anything about it. And if there are ANY coaches teaching this, they need to be fired and banned from all levels.

 

 

So whats your saying is it was a deliberate blow knowing he was going to get penalized and I disagree.

[DrDawkinstein]

That is not true. The way they teach people to tackle these days is not with the top of the shoulder, but with the sternum/breast bone. Your facemask should be in the other guys chest or meeting or just to the side of the ball carrier's facemask (hitting facemask to facemask is still 'helmet to helmet'). In football its impossible to think a played can position himself perfectly while being blocked, the ball carrier juking, etc.

 

Yet last season when Harrison got flagged (and later fined) for hitting Fitz right under his chin, he had a perfect form tackle. The replay showed that he barely hit Fitz helmet, if at all. Harrison burried his facemask in Fitz's chest, and he was still fined after the game.

 

The NFL cannot tell players to form tackle with their heads up when A) doing so would violate another rule (helmet to helmet) and B) they fine you for performing a textbook form tackle.

 

I saw a perfectly good hit over the weekend flagged for unnecessary roughness. it wasn’t to the head, low, or to a defenseless receiver. The reciever dropped the pass on the pla, because of the hit - how is that not 'necessary'? I have seen countless QB tackles being called for 'driving him into the ground' when it wasnt at all.

 

The NFL has turned into a pussified league with no defense allowed. Just look at the passing stats from this season. 300 yards used to be an accomplishment, now if you dont have 300+ or 3+tds its a bad day for a QB. I wouldnt be so pissed if it was jsut the NFL they were ruining, but these rules inevitablly trickle down to college and HS football, which ruins the game.

 

I hate Goodell.

 

You are correct in your first part and I just left that detail out of my already long post. But I was always taught that you put your facemask into the numbers or ball. In that area.

 

Leading with your facemask is not helmet to helmet. They are going after guys that drop their face to the ground and use the crown of the helmet. EXACTLY what Robinson did.

 

He was already in good position and in a breakdown. He could have/should have kept his face up, and put his mask right into Maclin's numbers. Probably would have jarred the ball loose.

 

He took the lazy way out instead.

 

So whats your saying is it was a deliberate blow knowing he was going to get penalized and I disagree.

 

Yes, he deliberately used that form. The players already said they dont care about the penalties, and it shows.

 

A properly trained and practiced player does not tackle like that. Its that simple.

 

He already had his head up to begin with. If it "happened too fast" he wouldve been caught in proper form. He chose to drop his head and "missile" the WR.

 

Doesnt matter how fast it happens. When you have proper tackling ingrained in you, you do it right instinctively. It's no harder to do it right, than it is to "missile" a guy.

Edited September 20, 2011 by DrDareustein

[Donald Duck]

You are correct in your first part and I just left that detail out of my already long post. But I was always taught that you put your facemask into the numbers or ball. In that area.

 

Leading with your facemask is not helmet to helmet. They are going after guys that drop their face to the ground and use the crown of the helmet. EXACTLY what Robinson did.

 

He was already in good position and in a breakdown. He could have/should have kept his face up, and put his mask right into Maclin's numbers. Probably would have jarred the ball loose.

 

He took the lazy way out instead.

 

 

 

Yes, he deliberately used that form. The players already said they dont care about the penalties, and it shows.

 

A properly trained and practiced player does not tackle like that. Its that simple.

 

He already had his head up to begin with. If it "happened too fast" he wouldve been caught in proper form. He chose to drop his head and "missile" the WR.

 

Doesnt matter how fast it happens. When you have proper tackling ingrained in you, you do it right instinctively. It's no harder to do it right, than it is to "missile" a guy.

 

 

When you are leaning forward on a full run, expecting a player to hold his head up on contact is not even possible in my opinion. Players are not robots programed to smash their face into oncoming objects. Also sounds like a good way to break your neck.

 

Ducking ones head is a natural reaction.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[DrDawkinstein]

When you are leaning forward on a full run, expecting a player to hold his head up on contact is not even possible in my opinion. Players are not robots programed to smash their face into oncoming objects. Also sounds like a good way to break your neck.

 

Ducking ones head is a natural reaction.

 

Yes, at the very moment of contact, your helmet will drop a bit naturally. That is why they train you to keep it up, so that the drop is minimized. That is not what is going on here.

 

What we have here are players choosing to lower their helmet and lead with it as a blind weapon.

 

Im not trying to use this as an insult, but its obvious you never played football or a sport that requires tackling. Because yes, players are programmed robots. That is why they talk about practice reps being so crucial. You train your muscles, body, and brain to instinctively do one thing a certain way, until you get to the point where it just happens.

 

WRT the bold, funny enough, going in with your head down is actually how you will cause yourself serious spinal injuries.

 

It's a bit of in between. Of course your head wont be fully up, naturally. But you simply cant lead with the top of the helmet either.

Edited September 20, 2011 by DrDareustein

[Jauronimo]

Yes, at the very moment of contact, your helmet will drop a bit naturally. That is why they train you to keep it up, so that the drop is minimized. That is not what is going on here.

 

What we have here are players choosing to lower their helmet and lead with it as a blind weapon.

 

Im not trying to use this as an insult, but its obvious you never played football or a sport that requires tackling. Because yes, players are programmed robots. That is why they talk about practice reps being so crucial. You train your muscles, body, and brain to instinctively do one thing a certain way, until you get to the point where it just happens.

 

WRT the bold, funny enough, going in with your head down is actually how you will cause yourself serious spinal injuries.

It's a bit of in between. Of course your head wont be fully up, naturally. But you simply cant lead with the top of the helmet either.

Completely true. Your neck will bend back, it doesn't go down very far before you cause serious spinal injury. Playing hockey we were always taught that if you're going into the boards head first, head up, take the blow on your face and NOT the top of your head.

[Donald Duck]

Yes, at the very moment of contact, your helmet will drop a bit naturally. That is why they train you to keep it up, so that the drop is minimized. That is not what is going on here.

 

What we have here are players choosing to lower their helmet and lead with it as a blind weapon.

 

Im not trying to use this as an insult, but its obvious you never played football or a sport that requires tackling. Because yes, players are programmed robots. That is why they talk about practice reps being so crucial. You train your muscles, body, and brain to instinctively do one thing a certain way, until you get to the point where it just happens.

 

WRT the bold, funny enough, going in with your head down is actually how you will cause yourself serious spinal injuries.

 

It's a bit of in between. Of course your head wont be fully up, naturally. But you simply cant lead with the top of the helmet either.

 

The blow is more evenly distributed and partially absorbed through the shoulder pads when your head is straight. Turning your head up on impact would increase the chance of severe injury in my opinion.(break your neck)

 

Completely true. Your neck will bend back, it doesn't go down very far before you cause serious spinal injury. Playing hockey we were always taught that if you're going into the boards head first, head up, take the blow on your face and NOT the top of your head.

 

 

Bend down and then hold your head all the way and tell me how your neck is going to bend further without breaking. RB's lower there head constantly plowing for more yards, why can they do it and not the defense? Again, ducking your head is a natural reaction vs smashing your face into an oncoming obstacle.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton

[DrDawkinstein]

The blow is more evenly distributed and partially absorbed through the shoulder pads when your head is straight. Turning your head up on impact would increase the chance of severe injury in my opinion.(break your neck)

 

Bend down and then hold your head all the way and tell me how your neck is going to bend further without breaking.

 

Thats your opinion. Its not the way it actually works in real life.

 

When you have your head up, you also instinctively slide to your shoulder as well.

 

Again, if you havent played, you have to take my word on it.

 

Breakdown, Face up, Hit in the numbers, slide to your shoulder, wrap, and drive. It's really not difficult and much easier/faster than it sounds.

[Donald Duck]

Thats your opinion. Its not the way it actually works in real life.

 

When you have your head up, you also instinctively slide to your shoulder as well.

 

Again, if you havent played, you have to take my word on it.

 

Breakdown, Face up, Hit in the numbers, slide to your shoulder, wrap, and drive. It's really not difficult and much easier/faster than it sounds.

 

Respectfully disagree Doc,

 

Helmet to Helmet contact will never go away, better to come up with solutions to prevent injury when it happens then to ask players to do something that is next to impossible.

 

Neck support with swivel/flex capabilities connecting the helmet to the shoulder pads in the back would go a long way in preventing spinal chord injuries just like padding on the outside of a helmet will reduce whiplash

Edited September 20, 2011 by Fig Newton