Taro T Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I didn't fall for it then and I don't fall for it now. The league cancels contracts all the time for tiny things. It was clearly an instance of one team pulling a fast one and not signing a fair contract. They could have stepped in and didn't, and they still allow poison pills. Didn't that one end up before an arbitrator w/ the NFLPA taking the Colts' side and the league agreeing w/ the Bills? IIRC the arbitrator ruled in favor of the Colts and then the league changed the rule to keep other teams from getting screwed the same way.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Didn't that one end up before an arbitrator w/ the NFLPA taking the Colts' side and the league agreeing w/ the Bills? IIRC the arbitrator ruled in favor of the Colts and then the league changed the rule to keep other teams from getting screwed the same way. You may be right. I don't know. If that was truly the case (and not more to it than that the league could have stepped in on), then I can't blame them. I can blame them for allowing the poison pill in the Hutch case (maybe Burleson too) and the Patsies case, amongst a few others, which were pretty blatant. Seems to be an issue with the NFLPA and the league but something really needs to be done, it makes the league weak.
Wiz Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Great example. Washington was a first round pick by San Francisco and did not live up to expectations. I believe he was injured most of the time in SF. Picked up by Denver as a free agent and began to contribute as a player. Then followed Wade Phillips to Buffalo. I know you are looking for first rounders, but I was wondering if Steve Christie would qualify? He was with Tampa Bay, they chose not keep him and he became a Plan B free agent. If Big Ted qualifies, then Lee Evans will after he has a Pro Bowl season this year!! Yeah, yeah, I want to move on, but I'm sick of the Bills front office getting schooled by an organization that knows what the hell it is doing.
Coach Tuesday Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Drew Brees is a good, recent example. Tony Mandarich and Robert Gallery both had good second careers as guards after flaming out at tackle. What about Simeon Rice? Also, IMO a "bust" is a player who failed to live up to expectations and was given up on - not someone like Kurt Warner or Priest Holmes who were UDRFAs and never had any expectations to begin with. Edited August 31, 2011 by Coach Tuesday
Cash Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Drew Brees is a good, recent example. Tony Mandarich and Robert Gallery both had good second careers as guards after flaming out at tackle. What about Simeon Rice? Also, IMO a "bust" is a player who failed to live up to expectations and was given up on - not someone like Kurt Warner or Priest Holmes who were UDRFAs and never had any expectations to begin with. Brees was a Pro Bowler in SD before moving on to NO, although he did look like a bust his first couple years. Gallery has been with the Raiders his whole career. Simeon Rice might be a decent one, but I think he was pretty good as a rookie for the Cardinals. Maybe 10 sacks? I remember my relatives in Phoenix being really psyched when they had Rice and Andre Wadsworth at the ends. (Wadsworth was "the best DE prospect since Bruce Smith" who went #3 overall, had something like 5 sacks in his first 3 games, then tore up his knee and never really played again.) It's interesting that two of the definite players who make this list - Thomas Jones & Garrison Hearst - were top 10 picks by the Cardinals, and Rice might be a third. Says something about Cardinals management, I think. I agree with your definition of a bust. It seems like most of the candidates in this thread were either low picks/UDFAs that one team gave up on, or high picks that played well, faded, then rejuvenated themselves with another team. I'm surprised at how few true busts have ever actually panned out for another team. Definitely an argument against signing a guy like Gholston or Maybin. On the other hand, RB seems to be the most likely position to find a gem in a former bust (Benson/Jones/Hearst). Definitely an argument for giving CJ Spiller a long leash.
ganesh Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 How about Wes Welker. Wasn't he cut by the team that drafted him? I thought Welker was a RFA and the Patriots signed him to an offer sheet that would have almost killed the Dolphins on the salary cap and hence they instead traded him for a 2nd round pick. Jonathan Scott He went from being cut by the Bills to the starting LT of the AFC Champions the Pittsburgh Steelers!!!!!!!
Coach Tuesday Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I thought Welker was a RFA and the Patriots signed him to an offer sheet that would have almost killed the Dolphins on the salary cap and hence they instead traded him for a 2nd round pick. That is correct, and he was never a "bust." Speaking of which, here is a timely article from yesterday written by Greg Gabriel, a Buffalo native, about what constitutes a "bust." http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-is-a-bust.html
marauderswr80 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 antwan smith? i dont think he had a great career here, but did well with the patriots and won a superbowl...IDK?
shibuya Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 sometimes it's just the scheme / coaching style that can bring out the best or worst in a player other times the player just sucks
RealityCheck Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 James Harrison was cut a few times before he finally emerged. However, I don't believe he was highly touted coming out of college.
Taro T Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 James Harrison was cut a few times before he finally emerged. However, I don't believe he was highly touted coming out of college. How many Kent Staters are?
Buftex Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I was going to say thomas Jones as well. How about Leonard Davis...he was drafted in the top 5 as a Tackle by Arizona, then went on to be an All-Pro Guard for the Cowboys. IIRC, Jones was pretty good in AZ, but was let go, because he was having some "domestic violence" issues...in my book, TJ is one of the most underrated and under appreciated players of the last decade... As for Leaonard Davis? How about Willis McGahee...Buffalo "bust", to the Pro-bowl! Also, I realize, being drafted in the 7th round means you can't really be a bust, but how about Jay Novacek? Cardinals to the Cowboys... Who said Welker? I don't think he qualifies...he was excellent in Miami, almost the second coming of Steve Tasker...the Phins were going to lose him, so they traded him, rather than pay him...he ended up being far more gifted than the Dolphins realized, but he was a Tasker-level special teamer for the Phins.
Rob's House Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 antwan smith? i dont think he had a great career here, but did well with the patriots and won a superbowl...IDK? He had almost 1300 yds one year before the Bills went with a run-by-committee. He wasn't an all purpose back but he was a good Eddie George style power back. Teddy Bruschi mentioned him, along with Corey Dillon, as the power back NE is missing (said they've regressed into a finesse team). He never got much credit, but he was a valuable piece of those first two SB winning teams they fielded.
cage Posted August 31, 2011 Author Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Alpha was right. I think your definition is just to skewed to have more then 10 (I don't think getting some trade value IS a good reason to not still consider one a bust, especially if they are a 1st or 2nd round pick) and the fact that you are somehow comparing our Oline to this bust to riches thing shows your agenda (since none of our castoffs were above 3rd round picks) to quote you . I also agree that a trade should NOT be considered a bust. If another team is willing to give up something in trade, then the guy is recognized as worth something and should not be in the bust category. If you look around the league at many other starting Oline men there are plenty that are either drafted late or even UFDA that are developed into players either by their own teams or by others. Clabo and Peters are probowl examples of this. I also think since 1990 is is very arbitrary. I don't think I stated that it had to be first or 2nd rounder, can be any player. The point was that we often say that our coaching staff is bad at talent development. The evidence appears to show that ALL NFL coaching staffs can recognize a good player when they have one and can recognize bad players as well with incredible accuracy... once they're on the team and are working them out directly. The 1990 is arbitrary, you're right... basically just to keep us in relatively recent history as early responders were coming back with Johnny Unitas and others who played a long time ago before football front offices got as sophisticated in drafting and talent evaluation as they are today. Its still all a big sample as roughly 32 teams x 7 rounds x 20 years is nearly 4,500 players drafted. When adjusted for # rounds in draft, compensatory players and such, lets just call it 4,500 players in our population. So far the board has struggled to identify 10 players that were BUSTS on their original team that could be deemed SUCCESSFUL on a subsequent team. Lets assume that with more thorough research than this crowd-sourced discussion we can find 25 such players. That would still be merely a 0.5% success rate in converting busts from other teams. That's across the entire NFL. That's considered an unacceptably poor hit rate on mass volume businesses such as sending out spam e-mail ads, credit card junk mail and telemarketing! The conclusion is DON'T SIGN ANYONE WHO FLAMED OUT FROM SOME OTHER TEAM... no matter how highly you had rated them coming out of college. Its a waste of time, money and resources. Edited September 1, 2011 by cage
Steve O Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Great example. Washington was a first round pick by San Francisco and did not live up to expectations. I believe he was injured most of the time in SF. Picked up by Denver as a free agent and began to contribute as a player. Then followed Wade Phillips to Buffalo. I know you are looking for first rounders, but I was wondering if Steve Christie would qualify? He was with Tampa Bay, they chose not keep him and he became a Plan B free agent. Steve Christie does not qualify. He had two very good seasons with Tampa Bay, 85% fg one year, 75% the other, 100% on pat's. He convinced Tampa Bay mgm not to waste a protection on him, he wasn't going anywhere. Then he told his agent he wasn't interested in going anywhere unless Bufallo called. He's from Oakville Ontario (just south of Toronto). Rest is history.
Buftex Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 He had almost 1300 yds one year before the Bills went with a run-by-committee. He wasn't an all purpose back but he was a good Eddie George style power back. Teddy Bruschi mentioned him, along with Corey Dillon, as the power back NE is missing (said they've regressed into a finesse team). He never got much credit, but he was a valuable piece of those first two SB winning teams they fielded. I honestly always thought one of the biggest blunders during Wade Phillips tenure as Bills head coach, was not using Antowain Smith more...he was the kind of back that needed a few carries to get into the flow of the game, but, he was worlds better a running back that Bryson and Linton. From what I know, he somehow got in Joe Pendry's (the OC at the time) dog house, and could never get out. I just remember so many games where it would be Linton for 2, Linton for 1, Bryson for 2...punt...next possession, Bryson for 1, Smith for 7, Linton for -1, punt...next possession...Smith for 7, Bryson for -2, Linton for 1...it was always so frustrating...I remember when Smith ripped that big TD run off at the beginning of the second half of "Homerun throwback" (like 65 yards or someting), only to be shown the bench most of the second half... I think he was just very under appreciated by that coaching staff.
bowery4 Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) The point was that we often say that our coaching staff is bad at talent development. The conclusion is DON'T SIGN ANYONE WHO FLAMED OUT FROM SOME OTHER TEAM... no matter how highly you had rated them coming out of college. Its a waste of time, money and resources. the board has struggled to identify 10 players that were BUSTS Who is we? And that is your conclusion, read about Clabo's past and he is just one example or if you would like, FITZ!. Many teams have UDFAs or high round draft picks that were cut by other teams starting for them. I really hope a few of our guys make you eat crow this year. College and draft position do not define a career in the NFL, in a lot of cases either do the first 2-3 years in the NFL. Player development can be as big of a crap shoot as the draft and the last FO was terrible at both. I reserve judgement on this one until year 3 or 4 even. And we don't have any former busts on the team that I know of (anymore lol), so really what is the point of this? As I said before you have an agenda, but then you used the wrong example to make your point. Your last point about the board failing to identify players who were busts then successful, this was my argument with your post in the first place: that the definition was flawed. Or at least your agenda was wrong for the point you were trying to make. Edited September 1, 2011 by bowery4
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