Dr. K Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Gary Anderson cut by the buffalo bills. All time NFL leading scorer at time of retirement Gray Anderson was in no way a #1 draft choice. Also, he said he did not want to go to the mid-1980s Bills and when they drafted him he deliberately tanked his training camp. He missed EVERY FIELD GOAL he tried in his pre-season games, with the expectation that after he got cut, he would be picked up by somebody else. He was right. One of the greatest satisfactions of my life is that, when he was the kicker for the Vikings he had a perfect season for the best scoring team of all time (to that date)--went all season without missing a kick--until their playoff game against the lowly Falcons where his miss at the end lost the game and knocked the Vikes out of the playoffs. It only took some 12 or 15 years, but it was sweet sweet sweet.
truth on hold Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 More than knock them out of playoffs, that was NFC championship game, knocked them out of Super Bowl! Cunningham, Moss and Carter were totally po'd on the sideline
bladiebla Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Kurt Warner is another, he was undrafted, was released/cut by Packers in training camp, bagged groceries, played arena football, then went onto become a Super Bowl MVP. So Sad how people always mistell this story, or leave out the essential bit. Warner was picked by al luginbill, coach of nfl europes Amsterdam Admirals. Rules required that a qb was under contract of a nfl team, so luginbill shopped around the league and found a partner in the Rams. No nfl europe would have meant no Warner.
Cash Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 How would you contrast McCargo's situation with Donte Whitner? Is it the same thing? Whitner was a 5 year starter, though obviously a disappointment. Great question. Donte wasn't offered a contract, but I would say that his 5 years of (disappointing) production count as distinguishing himself. Whitner wasn't really a bust - he was probably our second-best defender over the course of his career. And more importantly for this discussion, SF isn't taking a flyer on him as a reclamation project, they're paying him decent starter money to be a significant part of their defense. So I definitely would not count Whitner, even if he blows it up with SF.
Steve O Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 So Sad how people always mistell this story, or leave out the essential bit. Warner was picked by al luginbill, coach of nfl europes Amsterdam Admirals. Rules required that a qb was under contract of a nfl team, so luginbill shopped around the league and found a partner in the Rams. No nfl europe would have meant no Warner. likely no Fred Jackson either
LGB Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Eric Moulds (drafted in the first round in 1996) was a first round bust until his third year in the NFL...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Was Welker was stolen from the Dolphins from the Cheatriots. The Dolphins caved, but they basically had to. The Patriots, in their usual fashion, were complete scumbags and flat stole him, spitting on the spirit of the rules and taking advantage of a loophole that the gutless NFL, for some unknown reason, refuses to close. The Patriots planned to sign Welker, a restricted free agent, to an offer sheet that the Dolphins couldn't match, because it would have one figure in it they were willing to pay him as a salary, like 18 million over 5 years, but a provision that it jumped up to 38 million and fully guaranteed if he were to play 4 games in the state of Florida that year. Of course, the Patriots were not going to play 4 games in the state of Florida so he would never meet the provision. But the Dolphins would, and if they matched would have to pay Welker 38 million. The Dolphins were going to lose him, with rather low compensation by not matching the Patsies offer, because they were cheap with their own offer to Welker. So they decided to trade him to the Patsies for a 2nd and 7th or whatever it was, because they could not meet the poison pill. The Pats then signed him to the 18 mil contract with 9 guaranteed. It is also how, as many know, we lost Will Wolford to the Colts long ago. I don't see how the NFL can allow that crap to go on. http://articles.sun-...es-welker-nflpa Edited August 31, 2011 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog
Saint Doug Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 It was interesting on how long it took Moulds to develop. Then, it was like a light just went on. In this day of age, draft picks usually only get 2 years to show something. He'd likely be a cut nowadays.
billsfan89 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 New Orleans traded two #1s, two #3s, and a few garbage picks, got 2 good years out of 3 Ricky was on the team (maybe 1.5 considering injury), and ultimately got two #1s from Miami in return. I'm sorry, but that worked out just fine for New Orleans. I think it's much more appropriate to exclude trades. A team could think that the "bust" is capable of turning it around, but also feel like they'd rather take whatever compensation is being offered than commit more time to developing the "bust." In any case, if you get something in return for him, it's not such a bust. Leaving as a free agent should count, though. If John McCargo suddenly became an All-Pro, would it matter that the Bills never cut him? As long as the player in question never distinguished himself during his rookie contract and wasn't offered a new contract, that's basically the same as cutting him. New Orleans traded their whole draft class and the next years number one and number 3 picks. Now they got 2 decent years out of Williams and they got two number ones from the Fins so they got back a nice amount of those picks.
truth on hold Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Was Welker was stolen from the Dolphins from the Cheatriots. The Dolphins caved, but they basically had to. The Patriots, in their usual fashion, were complete scumbags and flat stole him, spitting on the spirit of the rules and taking advantage of a loophole that the gutless NFL, for some unknown reason, refuses to close. The Patriots planned to sign Welker, a restricted free agent, to an offer sheet that the Dolphins couldn't match, because it would have one figure in it they were willing to pay him as a salary, like 18 million over 5 years, but a provision that it jumped up to 38 million and fully guaranteed if he were to play 4 games in the state of Florida that year. Of course, the Patriots were not going to play 4 games in the state of Florida so he would never meet the provision. But the Dolphins would, and if they matched would have to pay Welker 38 million. The Dolphins were going to lose him, with rather low compensation by not matching the Patsies offer, because they were cheap with their own offer to Welker. So they decided to trade him to the Patsies for a 2nd and 7th or whatever it was, because they could not meet the poison pill. The Pats then signed him to the 18 mil contract with 9 guaranteed. It is also how, as many know, we lost Will Wolford to the Colts long ago. I don't see how the NFL can allow that crap to go on. http://articles.sun-...es-welker-nflpa Interesting. I wonder what lawyer or gm dreamed up that arbitrage. Been pretty funny if for some weather related reasons pats ended up playing 4 games in FL that season lol Edited August 31, 2011 by Joe_the_6_pack
bowery4 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Mt Washington makes the list! So our post 1990 list stands at... - Thomas Jones - Jason Babin - Cedric Benson - Leonard Davis - Jimmy Smith - Kyle Vanden Bosch - Ted Washington I'm blown away that we're struggling to find 10 players over the last 20 years who flamed out on team #1 and found subsequent success on a 2nd chance... WOW! Alpha was right. I think your definition is just to skewed to have more then 10 (I don't think getting some trade value IS a good reason to not still consider one a bust, especially if they are a 1st or 2nd round pick) and the fact that you are somehow comparing our Oline to this bust to riches thing shows your agenda (since none of our castoffs were above 3rd round picks) to quote you 2. Is signing cast-offs from other teams be part of a good strategy?I think the answer is taking shape... 1. The best indicator of success in the NFL is a player being successful with the team that first drafted him. Regardless of who that team is or who is coaching it. There aren't a bunch of high picks from the Bills, Bengals, Browns, Lions cast-offs making the Pro Bowl with the Steelers, Ravens or Patriots . If you look around the league at many other starting Oline men there are plenty that are either drafted late or even UFDA that are developed into players either by their own teams or by others. Clabo and Peters are probowl examples of this. I also think since 1990 is is very arbitrary.
Jim in Anchorage Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Wait-I know this busts the threads rules but a Bills forum and NO ONE mentions Daryle Lamonica?
headcase Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Interesting. I wonder what lawyer or gm dreamed up that arbitrage. Been pretty funny if for some weather related reasons pats ended up playing 4 games in FL that season lol It's been happening for years: Parcells did it to get Curtis Martin from New England to NYJ (I think this is the case, can't find documentation); Vikings did it to Seattle with Hutchinson; and I assume there have been many more examples over the years. ------------ So info from Wiki about it, it is from Wiki so take it for what it is. LINK The advent of the poison pill was first introduced to the public by 49ers President Carmen Policy in 1996. The 49ers intended to sign Giants running back Rodney Hampton to an offer sheet with a poison pill that stated Hampton would be "on the field for 70% of the offensive plays over the next 2 seasons." The Giants had drafted Tyrone Wheatley with their first round pick in 1995 but he was largely ineffective in his first season. Since he played the same position as Hampton, the Giants had planned to ease him into the offense with Hampton on the back end of his career. For the Giants to match the 6 year deal, they would be forced to play Hampton in 70% of the plays, thus making the previous year's draft pick of Wheatley a loss. The 49ers later decided to not include the clause, as they felt the NFL would never approve the terms. Their assumption would be proven incorrect following the 2005 season, with the historic offer sheet Steve Hutchinson signed with the Minnesota Vikings. SSDD
Kelly the Dog Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 It's been happening for years: Parcells did it to get Curtis Martin from New England to NYJ (I think this is the case, can't find documentation); Vikings did it to Seattle with Hutchinson; and I assume there have been many more examples over the years. ------------ So info from Wiki about it, it is from Wiki so take it for what it is. LINK SSDD The first known usage was, of course, used against the Bills. Who else could it possibly be? Jim Irsay of the Colts even takes full credit for it. The Colts signed the Bills starting OT Will Wolford to a 3-year 7-8 million offer sheet in 1993 with the stipulation that Wolford would have to be the highest paid offensive player on the team. The Colts at the time had no high paid players on their offense. The Bills couldn't match it because Jim Kelly was making twice was Wolford would be making, and the Bills would have to pay twice as much for him. The league let it go, even when the Colts were flaunting it. http://archive.profootballtalk.com/3-17-06.htm
Mark Vader Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I know this go back a little but what about Ted Washington? Great example. Washington was a first round pick by San Francisco and did not live up to expectations. I believe he was injured most of the time in SF. Picked up by Denver as a free agent and began to contribute as a player. Then followed Wade Phillips to Buffalo. I know you are looking for first rounders, but I was wondering if Steve Christie would qualify? He was with Tampa Bay, they chose not keep him and he became a Plan B free agent.
ropeerasers Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 How about Wes Welker. Wasn't he cut by the team that drafted him? Some people here have remarkably short memories. Welker was a Dolphin until he became an RFA. After negotiating a deal with the Pats, he was traded for a second-round pick.
Taro T Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 The first known usage was, of course, used against the Bills. Who else could it possibly be? Jim Irsay of the Colts even takes full credit for it. The Colts signed the Bills starting OT Will Wolford to a 3-year 7-8 million offer sheet in 1993 with the stipulation that Wolford would have to be the highest paid offensive player on the team. The Colts at the time had no high paid players on their offense. The Bills couldn't match it because Jim Kelly was making twice was Wolford would be making, and the Bills would have to pay twice as much for him. The league let it go, even when the Colts were flaunting it. http://archive.profootballtalk.com/3-17-06.htm Kelly, the league let it go, because they hadn't specifically had a rule against it in the Wolford case. They also immediately changed the rule so that particular loophole was closed afterwards. Which really sucked for the Bills, because Wolford was playing like a HoFer to that point of his career and Fina, while serviceable, was never close to Wolford talentwise.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Kelly, the league let it go, because they hadn't specifically had a rule against it in the Wolford case. They also immediately changed the rule so that particular loophole was closed afterwards. Which really sucked for the Bills, because Wolford was playing like a HoFer to that point of his career and Fina, while serviceable, was never close to Wolford talentwise. I didn't fall for it then and I don't fall for it now. The league cancels contracts all the time for tiny things. It was clearly an instance of one team pulling a fast one and not signing a fair contract. They could have stepped in and didn't, and they still allow poison pills. Edited August 31, 2011 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog
justnzane Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Some people here have remarkably short memories. Welker was a Dolphin until he became an RFA. After negotiating a deal with the Pats, he was traded for a second-round pick. he was originially an UDFA for the Chargers
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