Punch Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Why should it matter how they left though? If a team gives up on them and trades them out isnt that the same thing? Thought the more important part of this conversation was players with high draft status that did not live up to it with the team that drafted them and went on to have success elsewhere. Saying they only had to be cut is really limiting the depth of this conversation. There is more than one way to part with a busted draft pick...dont resign him when his contract is up, cut him out right, or trade him. Just don't see where the relevance is in only looking at cut players. Nit picking on how they left the team completely skews the results. If you want to know how many players bust then go onto have success with another team, then you have to accept any way they left the team. Just my 2 cents... And NO traded an entire draft to get Ricky and got no where near that value back. +1
Dorkington Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I think this subject is much like nature vs nurture. Some players will be great or busts on any team, no matter what. Some players will be greatly effected by the team that drafts them (bad on a bad team, good on a good team).
947 Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Garrison Hearst Ahman Green I believe the Pats gave up a 3rd round pick for Welker Pats traded a 2nd & a 7th for Welker.
cage Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) Why should it matter how they left though? If a team gives up on them and trades them out isnt that the same thing? Thought the more important part of this conversation was players with high draft status that did not live up to it with the team that drafted them and went on to have success elsewhere. Saying they only had to be cut is really limiting the depth of this conversation. There is more than one way to part with a busted draft pick...dont resign him when his contract is up, cut him out right, or trade him. Just don't see where the relevance is in only looking at cut players. And NO traded an entire draft to get Ricky and got no where near that value back. The definition of a BUST is that you cut him loose for got nothing. If you received some compensation then other teams recognized the players value and compensated you. The Bills tried to trade Aaron Maybin and there were no takers, while we were able to get value out of Willis Magahee. The are both 1st round disappointments in Buffalo, but you wouldn't consider Magahee a bust. The point of the question for me is two-fold 1. Are the Bills worse at player development than other teams? 2. Is signing cast-offs from other teams be part of a good strategy? I think the answer is taking shape... 1. The best indicator of success in the NFL is a player being successful with the team that first drafted him. Regardless of who that team is or who is coaching it. There aren't a bunch of high picks from the Bills, Bengals, Browns, Lions cast-offs making the Pro Bowl with the Steelers, Ravens or Patriots as they're laughing their way to the bank. Conversely, cuts from the upper echelon teams are not finding secondary success with the lower echelong teams that are starving for talent. For better or worse, coaches in the NFL can detect a good player when they see one and aren't cutting loose good talent. 2. Simply don't bother signing players that never cut it with their original team. If they didn't make it with that team, regardless of how highly you ranked them coming out of college, then they just weren't good enough for the NFL and move on, ignore them. That's what the data on this question seems to say... Edited August 30, 2011 by cage
tennesseeboy Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 A few weeks ago there was a discussion that prompted the following question... What NFL players, any team, have been a BUST on team #1 and then became a SUCCESS on team #2? Lets define BUST as someone who was drafted by team #1 and cut loose after 1-3 years as a failure. NOT people who were traded, left via free agency or were cut in a salary cap move. Lets define SUCCESS as someone who became a multi-year starter (off/def) or at least 1 Pro Bowl... NOT special teams stand-outs. I'm having trouble coming up with any from any team... The greatest Bust to winner would have to be Jim Plunkett, drafted by the Pats, released and then to the Oakland Raiders where he won a superbowl. I am not sure but I think Plunkett was a number one pick overall.
Cash Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Why should it matter how they left though? If a team gives up on them and trades them out isnt that the same thing? Thought the more important part of this conversation was players with high draft status that did not live up to it with the team that drafted them and went on to have success elsewhere. Saying they only had to be cut is really limiting the depth of this conversation. There is more than one way to part with a busted draft pick...dont resign him when his contract is up, cut him out right, or trade him. Just don't see where the relevance is in only looking at cut players. Your definition of "bust" is severely flawed to answer the question you originally asked at the top of your OP but saying only guys you get cut. Plenty of busts get traded or leave when FA's. Nit picking on how they left the team completely skews the results. If you want to know how many players bust then go onto have success with another team, then you have to accept any way they left the team. Just my 2 cents... And NO traded an entire draft to get Ricky and got no where near that value back. New Orleans traded two #1s, two #3s, and a few garbage picks, got 2 good years out of 3 Ricky was on the team (maybe 1.5 considering injury), and ultimately got two #1s from Miami in return. I'm sorry, but that worked out just fine for New Orleans. I think it's much more appropriate to exclude trades. A team could think that the "bust" is capable of turning it around, but also feel like they'd rather take whatever compensation is being offered than commit more time to developing the "bust." In any case, if you get something in return for him, it's not such a bust. Leaving as a free agent should count, though. If John McCargo suddenly became an All-Pro, would it matter that the Bills never cut him? As long as the player in question never distinguished himself during his rookie contract and wasn't offered a new contract, that's basically the same as cutting him.
Brand J Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 How about Wes Welker. Wasn't he cut by the team that drafted him? Welker was an UDFA and was cut by the Chargers after the first game of the season I believe.
Taro T Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 We seem to be running out of steam, here's the official list as it stands now... - Thomas Jones - Justin Babin - Cedric Benson - Leonard Davis - Gary Anderson - Vinny Testaverde - Steve Largent Seven total players. ONLY 4 guys on it that were drafted since 2000?? Can that be right? How about Mario Haggan, cut loose by Bills and starting in Denver?? I wouldn't include Anderson on that list. He was a rookie when he was cut, and didn't beat out an incumbent, though there was a widely held perception that Anderson intentionally performed poorly in camp for the Bills because the Bills wouldn't give him a reasonable contract. He reluctantly signed what they offered, couldn't (wouldn't?) make any kicks, was cut at the end of the preseason, and then promptly was signed by the Steelers and played great for them for a VERY long time.
cage Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 New Orleans traded two #1s, two #3s, and a few garbage picks, got 2 good years out of 3 Ricky was on the team (maybe 1.5 considering injury), and ultimately got two #1s from Miami in return. I'm sorry, but that worked out just fine for New Orleans. I think it's much more appropriate to exclude trades. A team could think that the "bust" is capable of turning it around, but also feel like they'd rather take whatever compensation is being offered than commit more time to developing the "bust." In any case, if you get something in return for him, it's not such a bust. Leaving as a free agent should count, though. If John McCargo suddenly became an All-Pro, would it matter that the Bills never cut him? As long as the player in question never distinguished himself during his rookie contract and wasn't offered a new contract, that's basically the same as cutting him. How would you contrast McCargo's situation with Donte Whitner? Is it the same thing? Whitner was a 5 year starter, though obviously a disappointment.
justnzane Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Might not be able to call him a bust because he was a fourth-round pick, but a guy who seemingly came out of nowhere after being cut was Rich Gannon. Not sure there were many high-round guys who were released then went on to stardom. I think Steroids had a large part of his success along with many of the Gruden/Callahan era Raiders as the clear was helping out Bonds across the Bay at the same time. Jim Plunket comes to mind did nothing for the PATS and won Super Bolws for the Raiders. First name that came to mind Farve Falcons to Packers Second thing that came to mind. Atlanta/Jerry Glanville was disgusted in Farve, due to alcoholism and lazy work ethic at the time. They gave up on him and traded him in his second season. It is not like he was behind a great QB, he was behind Chris Miller and Billy Joe Tolliver. I believe the Pats gave up a 3rd round pick for Welker Welker's original team was San Diego, who cut him after one game in 04 before Miami picked him up. In his 3rd year at Miami, he became a good player, but Miami tendered him low and NE* traded a 2nd and a 7th for him.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Not to nitpick, but wasn't Young traded to the 49ers for a 2nd and a 4th? The story is certainly a big turn around, I only mention this because the OP said no trades, and it made it much harder to think of examples. I don't remember him being considered a bust in Tampa. Is this supposed to lead to another "let's get Timmy Tebow" thread?
cage Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) I don't remember him being considered a bust in Tampa. Is this supposed to lead to another "let's get Timmy Tebow" thread? Actually just the opposite if you read through the thread. Don't ever bother with players that didn't make an impact and flamed out on their original team (regardless of which team). The success stories on 2nd chances are very few and far between... Edited August 30, 2011 by cage
Zip Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I know this go back a little but what about Ted Washington?
Billsrhody Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 What about Kyle Orton? He's was considered pretty terrible with the bears, I'm not sure how he ended up in Denver (possibly a trade?) but he's lit it up the last couple of years
justnzane Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 What about Kyle Orton? He's was considered pretty terrible with the bears, I'm not sure how he ended up in Denver (possibly a trade?) but he's lit it up the last couple of years They traded Orton for Cutler.
cage Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) I know this go back a little but what about Ted Washington? Mt Washington makes the list! So our post 1990 list stands at... - Thomas Jones - Jason Babin - Cedric Benson - Leonard Davis - Jimmy Smith - Kyle Vanden Bosch - Ted Washington I'm blown away that we're struggling to find 10 players over the last 20 years who flamed out on team #1 and found subsequent success on a 2nd chance... WOW! Edited August 30, 2011 by cage
Billsrhody Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 They traded Orton for Cutler. Oh yea thats right. Even so, he was just a toss in at that point and didnt really add value to the trade, right?
cwater10 Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Some guy named Tasker did OK after being waived by the Oilers...
cage Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 Some guy named Tasker did OK after being waived by the Oilers... Not waived... they were trying to sneak him off of Injured Reserve (which had different rules at the time) and Polian was alert and swiped him.
In space no one can hear Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Johnny Unitas was cut by the Steelers after drafting him that year. He was picked up by the Colts and the rest is history.
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