Erik Flowers Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I asked a simple question. You are reading stuff into it. PTR No, you asked a loaded question, but keep playing your games.
PromoTheRobot Posted August 25, 2011 Author Posted August 25, 2011 No, you asked a loaded question, but keep playing your games. Keep digging that hole. PTR
papazoid Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 We all know that much of the Bills failure as a franchise over the past 50+ years can be tied directly to Ralph Wilson. He's no Terry Pegula. There have been decades of bad memories, but also a few magical moments. Either way, the reason we are all here at TBD is because of Ralph Wilson. If it weren't for him Buffalo would have never been part of the NFL. I think I have proof of that. All you young whippersnappers may not know that there was another Buffalo Bills pro football team before Mr. Wilson's Bills. From 1946 to 1949 there was the All America Football Conference or "AAFC". It was an 8-team league that rivaled the 10-team NFL. The Buffalo franchise started as the Bisons but later became the Buffalo Bills. While the AAFC folded in 1949 it was strong enough that 3 teams were merged into the NFL: The Cleveland Browns, The San Francisco 49ers, and the Baltimore Colts. The Colts were added despite Buffalo being a better supported franchise: In 1949 Buffalo had almost 600,000 people, it was a Top-15 metropolitan area, and it was at the peak of its post-WWII prosperity. If a league would ever want a team in Buffalo it would have been in the late 40's. And yet, the NFL shunned us. Buffalo, as a city, has long had a poor reputation. It was considered an unsophisticated town with lousy weather. And the NFL was not the only pro sports league to spurn us. Major League baseball had Buffalo penciled in for its 1969 expansion but Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley pushed that team to Montreal. Even the NHL shunned Buffalo in its 1966 expansion. (Though, oddly, the NBA gave us the Braves in the 1970's, a time when the city's decline was well under way.) So you can see the NFL was never going to invite Buffalo into their club. The only way it happened is as a package deal merger with the AFL that our own Ralph Wilson negotiated. So my question to you is it better to love the Bills with all it's warts than to never had the Bills at all? PTR #1- Ralph Wilson is a pillar of our community. We are fortunate to have someone so committed to WNY and to keeping the Bills in Buffalo (unlike the owners of Baltimore,Cleveland,St Louis and Los Angeles who fled to greener pastures). Buffalo's final chapter has yet to be written upon ralph's passing and hopefully he does the right thing then too. Raplh's biggest mistake was firing Bill Polian over the honor of his daughter and he has not found a suitable replacement since. I am a +25 year 4 ticket season ticket holder, i was there for the 4 straight AFC CHAMPIONSHIPS...a record that will NEVER be broken. yea it sucks currently losing...and i am certainly at the forefront of poking fun at our latest misery by constantly predicting "0-16" and "with the first pick in the 2012 NFL Draft the Buffalo Bills select Andrew Luck QB Stanford" posts. but all kidding aside, i love football and i love the buffalo bills. i'm glad we have em as they are a huge source of civic pride and part of our fabric. in closing: The Bills make me wanna Shout! Kick your heels up and Shout! Throw your hands up and Shout! Throw your head back and Shout! C'mon now, the Bills are makin' it happen now. Stand up now c'mon and Shout! Yea-ea-eah! Say you will- Shout it right now baby. Say you will- C'mon, C'mon. Say you will- C'mon and Shout! Say you will- Yea-ea-eah! Shout! Buffalo's happenin' now, Shout! We're on the move now, Shout! The Bills' are happenin' now, Shout! They're makin' it happen now, Shout! We've got the spirit, Shout! A lot of spirit-Yeah! Shout! We've got the spirit, Shout! Just watch it happen now! Hey-ey-ey-ey! Hey-ey-ey-ey! Hey-ey-ey-ey! Hey-ey-ey-ey! Lets Go Buffalo! Lets Go Buffalo! Lets Go Buffalo! Lets Go Buffalo! The Bills make me wanna SHOUT! http://www.pdxbb.com/shout.mp3
dpberr Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Is the Buffalo area better off with an NFL team? Answer is yes. I look at the Bills from two points of view...as a football team and as a business. As a business, it's employed thousands of people during its tenure and been an important part of the Buffalo economy. On the field, sure, it's had an extended down period, but all businesses, including the NFL team, have periods of downturn.
Erik Flowers Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Keep digging that hole. PTR Me digging a hole? Judging by the response to your post, everyone sees through what you are doing. The bigger question is why are you doing it? Do you expect your question to provoke us to think about what the bills mean to Buffalo and to our life and finally realize that Ralph, not Jesus, is our true savior? Do you expect us to finally see the the error of our ways and join you at the altar of Ralph? Looks like there will be plenty of communion wine to go around at the First Sychophant's Church of Ralph. Drink up. Edited August 25, 2011 by Erik Flowers
BuffaloBillsForever Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Baited questions receive baited answers. Not much else to look into.
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Promo Great history lesson. Any idea on who would have been owner of the franchise when the AAFC and NFL merged? I thank Ralph for having the Bills in Buffalo but it is extremely hard to support him as an owner because out of the 50+ years at most 12 were good years ( 64-66) (74-75) (79-81) and 89 - 93. Right now I am displeased that he wont tell us succession plans and wont guarantee selling to an owner that will keep the team in Buffalo. My biggest fear is that after Ralph leaves this earth a higher bidder will move the team to Toronto or someplace else and will mark the end of EVER having NFL football in Buffalo. I think we are seeing in pegula an owner that has a passion and is willing to put forward the $$$ to bring glory to a franchise hopefully that money can bring the right people to run it as well since the redskins and rangers have shown its not just money that matters.
dave mcbride Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 With regard to the good things he's done (as per Kelly's post), I'd add that hiring Butler once Polian left was a good move. Donohoe was a good move in theory too, although of course it didn't work out. Since it didn't pan out, it's easy to criticize it as a bad move with 20/20 hindsight, but he did hire a good football with a proven track record of success and handed the keys to him. The point is that the instinct was right. The way the Butler firing went down was a complete debacle, however. Wilson should have simply paid the man what the market said he was worth. All Butler oversaw was a sterling track record as Polian's #2 and two losing seasons and five playoff appearances in his eight seasons as GM. The job he did in SD is proof of Butler's talent.
GG Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 This argument has been rehashed dozens of times, and it is a complex one. The scenario you just laid out is the state of the league right now, and yes, because he is 90+ years old, it would be difficult for him to move the team right now and make more money per year right now than he does because of the sweetheart deals he has after being here 50 years. he could make the franchise worth more right now though and more than cover those yearly losses. I'm talking about over the course of the history of his ownership there were all kinds of if not endless opportunities to make more money elsewhere. And even if he didn't make as many millions in profit each year, the team would have been worth that much more and then some when it was sold. That's making more money, too. If he wanted to more money because he is greedy, he could sell 10% of the team, have total control like he does, make 70-80 million in cash for himself. Or do (and I am not talking you here) people actually believe in some bizarro world that Ralph Wilson is really cheap and miserly and hoards all his pennies but really wants it so he can leave his family 780 million dollars and not spend it himself? If he wanted to, he could probably move the team right now to LA, sell a large portion of it to AIG,or Roski or someone else, make 100-200 million cash for himself, and still have complete power over the running of the team, and his heirs worth just as much as the Bills are right now, contingent upon the sale to the other group upon his death. If he wanted to make more money, he could. You're taking off on a tangent. The point I was disputing was that Wilson would make more money by moving the team out of Buffalo. Of course he could also have made more money by selling minority shares, which he declined to do, simply because he didn't have to. Owning an NFL franchise is still among the biggest strokes a rich guy can have, and he's not going to part with any portion unless he has serious cash issues. And that's where the argument is. Bills generate a lot of operating cash for Wilson and I'll go on a limb by guessing that the Bills are the cash engine in Ralph Wilson Enterprises. I'll ignore the inane point that Wilson hoards the pennies. He spends just enough to make sure that RWE gets its cash at the end of the year. Let's not ignore that in addition to griping about players, Wilson never (until 2010) was willing to pay top dollar for front office & coaching. Bills also had a bare bones scouting department until the '80s. So yeah, he could have monetized his investment more as he kept the team in Buffalo, but he preferred the cold hard cash without much effort instead. Until of course he found a bigger sucker than Bills fans in Ted Rogers.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 With regard to the good things he's done (as per Kelly's post), I'd add that hiring Butler once Polian left was a good move. Donohoe was a good move in theory too, although of course it didn't work out. Since it didn't pan out, it's easy to criticize it as a bad move with 20/20 hindsight, but he did hire a good football with a proven track record of success and handed the keys to him. The point is that the instinct was right. The way the Butler firing went down was a complete debacle, however. Wilson should have simply paid the man what the market said he was worth. All Butler oversaw was a sterling track record as Polian's #2 and two losing seasons and five playoff appearances in his eight seasons as GM. The job he did in SD is proof of Butler's talent. Totally agree on the Tom Donohoe part. I, too, think that was a very good move, it just didn't work out. TD took a couple gambles that failed on both players and especially coaches. He also became (or always was) a tyrant and alienated a lot of people in the Bills front office. In retrospect, however, the move actually backfired on more ways than one. Because Ralph felt he lost his team after the TD tenure, he bunkered down a lot more. He trusted outsiders less, and gave more power to his evil inner circle, as well as such obvious blunders as the Marv Levy fiasco.
dave mcbride Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Totally agree on the Tom Donohoe part. I, too, think that was a very good move, it just didn't work out. TD took a couple gambles that failed on both players and especially coaches. He also became (or always was) a tyrant and alienated a lot of people in the Bills front office. In retrospect, however, the move actually backfired on more ways than one. Because Ralph felt he lost his team after the TD tenure, he bunkered down a lot more. He trusted outsiders less, and gave more power to his evil inner circle, as well as such obvious blunders as the Marv Levy fiasco. Agreed.
John from Riverside Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Promo.....this is where I am going to turn my hat around from its normal position..... I am not a native Buffalonian....I have actually never even set FOOT in Buffalo.....the closest i got was when i was Stationed on in Cape Cod well over 10 years ago. I have actually been to Patriot camp (back in the Curtis Martin days) several times and never made it to Bills camp That being said....i wouldn't want the Bills anywhere else but buffalo BUT This needs to be said.....THANKYOU to Ralph Wilson for bringing the Bills to Buffalo...but at some point that just existing is just not good enough for the fan base......the purpose of a sports franchize is not just to exist.....they need to have a goal set on winning. The Bills have been so bad for so long that there are just too many jokes being made about the franchize and the team. I want a team that gets pissed when people laugh at them.....not a "existing" team that puts a team on the field (10 straight years without playoffs Promo) a DECADE......that cartoon thingy in that article yesterday showing the beat up fan...the beat up player....and a guy with a cigar wheelbarrowing cash just hit so close to home to me......it actually made me laugh for a second and then it hurt my heart because it felt so true BUT Every time I start to get really down on the team.....they go and do something smart. Signing Morrison yesterday was one of ths smart moves the bills make every once in a while that make me believe they still do have a plan....and while they might be maximizing profit Nix might be finding ways to still make them competative..... I still believe....I just wish the Bills would start rewarding my belief.
Mark Long Beach Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 You should be on the Bills' payroll. 14,000 posts worth of thank your lucky stars we even have a team. I'll ask the question you really meant and answer it. Would you rather have a team that sucks forever, is horribly managed, and doesn't make any real effort at fielding a competitive team, or no team at all? My answer is no team at all. In the last 51 years, we have had 10 season of competitive football. The last 11 have been a joke. Ralph is a feeble incompetent sucking the last bit of meat off the bone. Give me a team that cares, or give me no team at all. We've had a winning season about 40% of the time. Which is about our overall w/l record. Over time we're below average. We've also won 2 championships and lost 4. so out of those 51 years we reach the championship game on average every 9 years. This average is actually HIGHER than expected given the number of teams in the league, especially given our below .500 overall record. The last 10 years have stunk, no doubt. But the league is cyclical and I like our GM, Asst. GM and some of our new players. I'm hoping for a team on the rise again. If all you care about is winning go jump on the latest bandwagon team. To say the Bills players, coaches, owner or GM don't care is lunacy.
KollegeStudnet Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I never said Ralph was Mother Theresa. I'm asking would you rather have the Bills as they are or no NFL team in Buffalo ever? Don't read schitt into this. PTR I understand what you mean...my scientific theory is that I think people do not read the whole post...they skim the post and reply as fast as they can about their feelings towards the Bills without reading the actual question on wether to have an actual NFL team or to not have an actual team! We call him cheap...but, he makes every game affordable for any family! We believe he has no passion...but, this 93 World War II veteran is an American hero who kept this team here and made sure the Raiders and Patriots didn't fold...and helped Lamar Hunt make sure the AFL survived--in what would become the NFL today! We think he is a bad owner...but, he has always tried to put a quality product on the field...sometimes it has SUCKED--but, other times it's been a success! Without Ralph we wouldn't have a team...I say, I'm glad this team is here and am proud to say GO BILLS!
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 I do have to say one thing Ralph sucks for bailing out the Patriots just think without Ralph there may not be a team in Boston/New England. Damn you ralph!!!
Erik Flowers Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 We've had a winning season about 40% of the time. Which is about our overall w/l record. Over time we're below average. We've also won 2 championships and lost 4. so out of those 51 years we reach the championship game on average every 9 years. This average is actually HIGHER than expected given the number of teams in the league, especially given our below .500 overall record. The last 10 years have stunk, no doubt. But the league is cyclical and I like our GM, Asst. GM and some of our new players. I'm hoping for a team on the rise again. If all you care about is winning go jump on the latest bandwagon team. To say the Bills players, coaches, owner or GM don't care is lunacy. There were 10 teams in the AFL - winning a championship was less of an accomplishment. Its not all about winning - its about making an effort - there has been very little effort in the last decade. I like Chan and Buddy just fine - but they aren't the problem. Its the puppetmaster who meddles and retains incompetents and appoints marketing whizzes as CEO's and sides with his money man in his spat with the greatest personnel evaluator the league has ever known who is the problem. Our periods of success were accidents, not design. He lucked into Saban, fired him, and brought him back again. He fired Polian and ran Butler out of town. All we as fans ask for is a concerted effort to win - we aren't getting that from ownership. All the good will of the 90's is finally wearing off, which is why season tickets sales are flagging. People are finally realizing that Ralph doesn't really care about fielding a winner.
NoSaint Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 People like to say this, but it's just not true. He couldn't care less about the region. His heirs don't want the team, and he won't put any succession plan in place, but instead just prefers to let the team sell to the highest bidder after his death. Why? Because he's a businessman, in his motive is to make money. If he could have easily made a lot more money by moving the team, he would have done so in a heartbeat. You think he just actively chose to throw away millions and millions of dollars in order to keep a team in some random geographic region that he has no particular ties to? How does that make any sense? He didn't even want to put the team here in the first place. Having no ties years ago when he settled on here is different than saying it today. I'd like to think he has formed some opinion of the area after all these years.
FistingBot Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 There were 10 teams in the AFL - winning a championship was less of an accomplishment. Good point. Actually there were only 8 AFL teams when we won championships in 1964 and 1965 (teams had a 25% chance of making the championship game back then).
yungmack Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Great summation, Promo. I would add that, after the original Bills folded, the best players migrated to the expanded NFL, among them the excellent QB George Ratterman to the Browns where he was the long-term backup to one of the all-time best -- and all-time overlooked -- QBs, Otto Graham. In those days, there was no nationally televised regular season NFL games so Paul Brown, as usual ahead of his time, created his own Browns regional network. And he shrewdly broadcast his games to WNY where the Bills fans avidly followed "their players." Throughout the 50s, the Browns had a huge following in WNY. In many ways, the Browns were Buffalo's team. Edited August 26, 2011 by yungmack
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