AP State of the Bills

[jester43]

By this same measure, for the first 40 years he was an average owner with well above average championship appearances. So was he incompetent then?

 

 

Yes, he obviously was. Because not only did he habitually run the people who put good teams together out of town on a rail (saban, knox, polian, butler, etc). He has proved again and and again he doesn't know how to hire winning replacements. he is a career loser and a scourge on the fanbase here. it disgusts me that we're supposed to owe him our loyalty just because the bills still "exist," when for all intents and purposes, they are already dead. Edited August 26, 2011 by jester43

[JohnC]

And I don't think that SD regrets that move one iota, nor do Carolina and Indy who picked up another Bills castoff.

 

People who are talented will find a job.

 

As you suggest there should be no surprise that the quality and strong-willed employees will be driven out. In my view the departure of Polian was the point of demarcation for this franchise. It was a clear recognition that the finance wing of the organization trumped the football side of the operation.

 

The Bills are what they are because the owner is who he is. The state of the franchse is certainly a reflection of the caliber of ownership. An interesting question or possibly ominious question is now that the owner is aging and less capable how will the franchise be run? Was the Evans trade simply orchestrated by the finance side of the organization without the consent of the football side, or was it a standard player transaction? The jw article opened up a very worrisome slant to how this franchise is going to be run during the owner's slide out of the picture.

[Sisyphean Bills]

"But the facts are these: Wilson's contract offers weren't competitive. Despite being one of the most accomplished GM's in the league, and a shrewd judge of personnel, Butler's current salary was about $500,000, putting him in the lower third among his NFL peers. Wilson's last offer was in the range of $1 million, or even a little less than that, a figure he said was the average of the eight highest-paid general managers in the league." "With Green Bay's Ron Wolf setting the bar in the league at $2.2 million per year, and Colts GM Bill Polian earning a reported $1.3 million, Butler, 54, was in line for more than $1 million per year. Butler wasn't looking to hold the small-market Bills hostage, but he didn't accept Wilson's contract offers because he didn't believe they were in the ballpark."

Just thought this was interesting: There is no smaller market in professional sports than Green Bay. It does not exist. And, Indianapolis is not considered a huge market either. Still, the Bills are well-known to cry "small market" any and every time some sort of expenses come up. (e.g., Littmann's comment on the "small-market handicap: http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/BuffaloBills/index.htm )

 

OTOH, what has stopped the Bills? http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-ownersrankingspartone072208 The NFL made special provisions for them to regionalize the brand to include the huge area of southern Ontario including Toronto. The trouble is that the Bills are not competitive, so simply getting crushed in Toronto in an irrelevant game annually is probably not all that effective a marketing ploy to win over new, young fans. (There seemed to be more Dolphins fans at that Toronto game than Bills fans.)

[Coach Tuesday]

That's actually a very good point. What do we call the situation that the Bills find themselves in? Groundhog Day?

 

Re-doing.

[Jauronimo]

That's actually a very good point. What do we call the situation that the Bills find themselves in? Groundhog Day?

Didn't you just ask me that?

[thewildrabbit]

Thanks for the additional information but to some degree it isn't in conflict with my original post. As I stated Ralph low balled him (what a surprise LOL) but then upped his offers to a more competitive rate.

 

While Butler preferred waiting for the end of the season (your documented version) the owner wanted to get it done. Ralph's interpretation of the situation (right or wrong I can't say for sure) was that Butler was putting him off with no intention of signing. Once he felt that the employee wasn't going to sign under any terms (correct perception or not???) he fired him. JB's current contract was virtually over anyway.

 

Ralph can be a prickly person. But his suspicions were not unwarrented. Shortly after the firng Butler/A.J. Smith quickly signed a new deal with San Diego. In addition, with his departure followed an exodus of a number team scouts to join him in sunny California. Then followed the Donahoe and post Donahoe era bringing with it the downward spiraling of the franchise.

 

I for one believe that Butler was going to leave, especially after the first contract offer for what he considered to be an insulting low ball offer. Ralph's explanation for his low offer was that he didn't consider Butler to be a full service GM, he categorized him as merely being a personnel man. There is no doubt that Ralph is always adept at rationalizing his frugality.

 

As I stated in the original posts there were numerous stories of Butler recounting to others (Mortonson) how stressful it was working for the meddlesome and frugal owner. Shortly after the Polian departure there were numerous stories of his epic battles with Ralph's finance guardians. The point being the working environment and sideshows were very challenging and exhausting.

 

I guess if we blend in the two versions of this episode the truth will be found. Sometimes it is not an issue of the facts of the story so much as the perception and interpretation of the facts of the story.

Did you read the entire article?

 

 

.NFN but you don't take John Butler for his word when he states he was shocked by his firing? He loved working for the Bills and he loved the area. You stated Butler " made it more known that he found it intolerable working for the meddling owner and his constant harping about costs. He was simply fed up with the way owner operated." The author Don Banks implies there might have been other factors, but Butler stated he didn't think Wilson's offer was competitive was the reason he didn't sign right away. He also states that the only other reason he didn't sign was because the season was still going on, games were being played, and he wanted to sit down after the season to negotiate. Basically what I stated in my first post that you disagreed with.

 

I tend to believe the man when he stated he wanted to stay with the Buffalo Bills, and had no intention to leave or had contact with other teams until after he was fired

 

It would be great If you can link what Mort stated, was it his opinion or JB's actual statement? I tend to believe an article written directly from a personal interview rather then various opinions.

 

 

Anyway, we both agree Wilson being the impatient cantankerous old fool that he is, did in fact screw himself and the fans when he fired Butler.

[Ramius]

Just thought this was interesting: There is no smaller market in professional sports than Green Bay. It does not exist. And, Indianapolis is not considered a huge market either. Still, the Bills are well-known to cry "small market" any and every time some sort of expenses come up. (e.g., Littmann's comment on the "small-market handicap: http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/BuffaloBills/index.htm )

 

OTOH, what has stopped the Bills? http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-ownersrankingspartone072208 The NFL made special provisions for them to regionalize the brand to include the huge area of southern Ontario including Toronto. The trouble is that the Bills are not competitive, so simply getting crushed in Toronto in an irrelevant game annually is probably not all that effective a marketing ploy to win over new, young fans. (There seemed to be more Dolphins fans at that Toronto game than Bills fans.)

 

One might wonder what happened to the 78 million dollars the Bills received from the Toronto deal. IIRC, we were told that giving away a home game each season would broaden the Bills market and help us to be more competitive.

 

From my vantage point, i can't see where a single cent of that 78 million went anywhere other than ralph's coffers. I don't need an itemized list of what happened, but i can speculate that very little of that money was spent on the football operation. So where did the 78 million dollars go?

[dave mcbride]

To answer your bolded question: absolutely.

 

Why do I say "absolutely?"

 

Because Lou Saban was the reason his team made it to the 2 AFL championship runs, and he and Lou couldn't keep that together and because Bill Polian was the reason they made it to 4 consecutive Superbowls and he fired him in the middle of that run.

 

IF Ralph has lucked into a keeper in Buddy Nix, he sure as heck will screw it up (if he lives that long). His past history shows that he (and his lackeys such as Littman) can't coexist w/ guys that know what they're doing. He screwed it up w/ Saban twice, he screwed it up w/ Knox, he screwed it up w/ Polian in spades, he screwed it up w/ Butler (who was nowhere nearly as talented as those others); and I have no reason to believe he won't mess it up again in the future given the chance.

 

There is absolutely no LEGITIMATE excuse for having fired Polian. That guy has been 1 of the top 3 best GM's in his entire tenure in the league, and he'd be here today if Ralph hadn't been an idiot. If you can come up with a legitimate reason to have fired Polian (and I don't consider his butting heads w/ Littman nor calling Ralph's daughter a nasty name when she reported to him but was playing the 'my daddy owns the team' card legitimate reasons for firing him), then I might agree that Ralph gets criticism he doesn't deserve. But until I see that reason, I will stick with the belief that Ralph has earned all (well, most of it at any rate) the criticism he gets.

Oh, I think Butler was damn talented. He helped build a great team in Buffalo and kept it competitive for well over a decade. In his first year in SD, his first two picks will very likely end up in the Hall of Fame. Not too shabby.

[BillnutinHouston]

So where did the 78 million dollars go?

 

Some possibilities:

 

1) new weight room facilities

2) a second strength/conditioning coach

3) Wannstedt hire

4) expanded practice field construct

5) Hall of Fame facilities ($2.5 mil)

6) new uniform redesign/consultant

7) investing it (hopefully in precious metals and not stocks) for use in 2013 when the NFL salary floor kicks in

[JohnC]

Did you read the entire article?

 

 

.NFN but you don't take John Butler for his word when he states he was shocked by his firing? He loved working for the Bills and he loved the area. You stated Butler " made it more known that he found it intolerable working for the meddling owner and his constant harping about costs. He was simply fed up with the way owner operated." The author Don Banks implies there might have been other factors, but Butler stated he didn't think Wilson's offer was competitive was the reason he didn't sign right away. He also states that the only other reason he didn't sign was because the season was still going on, games were being played, and he wanted to sit down after the season to negotiate. Basically what I stated in my first post that you disagreed with.

 

I tend to believe the man when he stated he wanted to stay with the Buffalo Bills, and had no intention to leave or had contact with other teams until after he was fired

 

It would be great If you can link what Mort stated, was it his opinion or JB's actual statement? I tend to believe an article written directly from a personal interview rather then various opinions.

 

 

Anyway, we both agree Wilson being the impatient cantankerous old fool that he is, did in fact screw himself and the fans when he fired Butler.

 

Yes, I did read the article. Of course money was a factor, it always is with Ralph. The first offer the owner made was a paltry offer. No one is disputing that. But the later offers were not out of the norm.

 

The owner made numerous requests of Butler to come to an agreement. You said that JB wanted to wait for the end of the season. That was fine with JB but it certainly wasn't fine with Ralph. The baron owner felt that he was being put off by a subordinate. In the owner's mind he didn't find it acceptable for the subordinate not to come to terms with his excellency. It is clear that the owner wanted the deal to be concluded on his schedule, not the peasant employee's schedule.

 

Whether Butler was going to stay or not is debatable. The owner felt that he was planning on leaving. After his firing he did sign a quick deal with the Chargers. Were Ralph's suspicions about JB out of the realm. I don't think so. There are more than a few ways to make unofficial overtures in the NFL. Whether JB was going to stay is not the issue. The owner felt he was being played and put off. So he cut it short and fired him.

 

With respect to the working relationship between JB and the owner it was to say the least very challenging. I'm sure you wouldn't doubt the stories of the owner meddling on football decisions. That is well known. I vividly remember after the firing many radio and paper reports about how difficult it was to work with cranky Ralph. (To this day I remember a recorded response by Ralph explaining why he fired Butler. It made an impression on me because it was so disturbingly disjointed and incoherent.)

 

As I stated in the prior post sometimes the issue has less to do with the facts and the reality as it does with the perception of the facts and reality. The owner and JB had different perceptions of the situation. The owner acted on his perceptions (maybe not the reality) and fired JB.

[Doc]

Butler was little more than a glorified scout. He rode the coattails of Polian's teams and with the help of AJ Smith, who was mostly responsible for rebuilding the Chargers (since Butler wasn't around for most of it), got the Bills a couple more playoff seasons. I fully believe he was planning on "Bolting" to SD, where they had the 1st overall pick and a pristine cap situation, unlike the mess he left in Buffalo. Ralph's offer just gave him a convenient excuse to leave.

[JohnC]

Butler was little more than a glorified scout. He rode the coattails of Polian's teams and with the help of AJ Smith, who was mostly responsible for rebuilding the Chargers (since Butler wasn't around for most of it), got the Bills a couple more playoff seasons. I fully believe he was planning on "Bolting" to SD, where they had the 1st overall pick and a pristine cap situation, unlike the mess he left in Buffalo. Ralph's offer just gave him a convenient excuse to leave.

 

The point I've tried to make with Harvey is that no one can say for sure whether he planned on leaving. JB claims not, at least that is what he indicated to Banks. The owner felt otherwise. Ralph acted on what he believed to be true (perception). The quick signing with San Diego might suggest that there was something to Ralph's suspicions. Or maybe the quick signing with San Diego doesn't prove or even suggest anything. My point is simply that the owner had a more jaundiced view of the situation so he fired him.

[Doc]

The point I've tried to make with Harvey is that no one can say for sure whether he planned on leaving. JB claims not, at least that is what he indicated to Banks. The owner felt otherwise. Ralph acted on what he believed to be true (perception). The quick signing with San Diego might suggest that there was something to Ralph's suspicions. Or maybe the quick signing with San Diego doesn't prove or even suggest anything. My point is simply that the owner had a more jaundiced view of the situation so he fired him.

The quick hiring by SD is what cinches it for me. Not to mention the clean salary cap situation, bad cap mess, 1st overall pick, and that it was San Diego and not Buffalo. If I were Butler, I'd have left as well.

[Kelly the Dog]

The quick hiring by SD is what cinches it for me. Not to mention the clean salary cap situation, bad cap mess, 1st overall pick, and that it was San Diego and not Buffalo. If I were Butler, I'd have left as well.

Exactly. Butler left the Bills in an absolute shambles. IMO, there was no way he was staying here.

 

That said, I understand what he did, and I MAY, repeat, MAY, have done something similar if I were him. The Bills were at a crossroads in the year or two before he left. We had a bunch of good players and had a playoff caliber team. Butler gambled, and lost, on numerous contracts where he severely overpaid for players, but tried to keep the team in tact for one last run. We feel just short, but even in retrospect, it was understand what he did. I can't recall all the names, but he grossly overpaid for decent to good players like John Holecek, Henry Jones, Ken Irvin, Keith Newman, Ostroski. I may have forgotten a few or got the years wrong on one, but he overpaid for 5-6 players trying to keep the team together. He did. And we were good, but we didn't win. When he left we were in cap hell and it took a few years to get out of it.

[thewildrabbit]

Butler was little more than a glorified scout. He rode the coattails of Polian's teams and with the help of AJ Smith, who was mostly responsible for rebuilding the Chargers (since Butler wasn't around for most of it), got the Bills a couple more playoff seasons. I fully believe he was planning on "Bolting" to SD, where they had the 1st overall pick and a pristine cap situation, unlike the mess he left in Buffalo. Ralph's offer just gave him a convenient excuse to leave.

 

You're opinion ? Because that is far from accurate!

 

Under Butler:

 

The Bills are the NFL's best example of a successful team built through the draft and minimal free-agent signings. The Bills have had an average draft position of 22nd in each round since Butler replaced Bill Polian as general manager in 1993, yet have made the playoffs in five of those eight seasons. The Bills also had an NFL-high 18 draft picks filling 22 starting positions this season.

 

 

You both are stating that Butler signed a "quick" contract with the Chargers, do you have a link to verify what you say or is this this pure speculation? The Chargers owner isn't a fool like RW, he saw the production from a GM on the field in Buffalo and realized his team was lacking talent necessary to win so he hired Butler. I'll bet the offer was far superior to anything Wilson offered him.

 

From what I read that John Butler stated, he liked working for the Bills and liked living in the area (something not many will admit to) which is contrary to what you posted.

 

 

If you guys want to believe opinions, speculations and hearsay then feel free. For me it doesn't get much better then a direct interview with the man in question, clear cut and concise.

[JohnC]

If you guys want to believe opinions, speculations and hearsay then feel free. For me it doesn't get much better then a direct interview with the man in question, clear cut and concise.

 

Harvey, I say this respectfully: You are missing my fundamental point. The issue isn't what Butler felt it was what the owner believed. If you don't understand what I am getting at then so be it. If you go back and re-read what I was saying about the situation then you might have a better grasp of what my central point is i.e. different perception and interpretaion over the same set of facts.

 

It's usually better to listen to what someone is saying than reinforcing what you already think one is saying. There comes a point where additional elaboration is redundant and futile. Let's simply agree to disagree and move on.

Edited August 27, 2011 by JohnC

[birdog1960]

Butler was little more than a glorified scout. He rode the coattails of Polian's teams and with the help of AJ Smith, who was mostly responsible for rebuilding the Chargers (since Butler wasn't around for most of it), got the Bills a couple more playoff seasons. I fully believe he was planning on "Bolting" to SD, where they had the 1st overall pick and a pristine cap situation, unlike the mess he left in Buffalo. Ralph's offer just gave him a convenient excuse to leave.

are there any personnel losses/misses/failures throughout the bills history that you find blame with wilson on? while some of us get accused of being too negative, your posts seem to reflect a glorius past and recent history in which bills brass have performed extremely well.

[tennesseeboy]

This Butler and Pollian talk is pretty much water over the dam. I reluctantly have tgo admit that whatever the situation back then, its been a bizarre administrative situation since Butler left. I think the choices for front office have gotten progressively worse and probably won't change while Ralph is active in the Bills operations.

 

Ralph has been a great owner, a great leader in the AFL and in the NFL merger and an important voice in NFL operations for nearly sixty years. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. But frankly, I don't see the Bills improving with him at the helm.

[Bob in STL]

Exactly. Butler left the Bills in an absolute shambles. IMO, there was no way he was staying here.

 

That said, I understand what he did, and I MAY, repeat, MAY, have done something similar if I were him. The Bills were at a crossroads in the year or two before he left. We had a bunch of good players and had a playoff caliber team. Butler gambled, and lost, on numerous contracts where he severely overpaid for players, but tried to keep the team in tact for one last run. We feel just short, but even in retrospect, it was understand what he did. I can't recall all the names, but he grossly overpaid for decent to good players like John Holecek, Henry Jones, Ken Irvin, Keith Newman, Ostroski. I may have forgotten a few or got the years wrong on one, but he overpaid for 5-6 players trying to keep the team together. He did. And we were good, but we didn't win. When he left we were in cap hell and it took a few years to get out of it.

 

 

This may be true but even when we got out of cap hell we made many dubious drafts and free agency moves. John Butler and AJ Smith were far more capable football people than we have ever had since their departure. They could have blown up the Bills, dumped salary, restarted the program and been competitive again in 4 years. Competitive in our division by the 5th year.

 

Look at the crap we have dealt with since then --- TD, Greggo, Mularkey, Levy, Brandon and Jauron. Butler/Smith know football better than this entire cast of characters combined.

 

Buddy Nix was on the staff when we had Butler and Smith.

[Bob in STL]

You're opinion ? Because that is far from accurate!

 

Under Butler:

 

The Bills are the NFL's best example of a successful team built through the draft and minimal free-agent signings. The Bills have had an average draft position of 22nd in each round since Butler replaced Bill Polian as general manager in 1993, yet have made the playoffs in five of those eight seasons. The Bills also had an NFL-high 18 draft picks filling 22 starting positions this season.

 

 

You both are stating that Butler signed a "quick" contract with the Chargers, do you have a link to verify what you say or is this this pure speculation? The Chargers owner isn't a fool like RW, he saw the production from a GM on the field in Buffalo and realized his team was lacking talent necessary to win so he hired Butler. I'll bet the offer was far superior to anything Wilson offered him.

 

From what I read that John Butler stated, he liked working for the Bills and liked living in the area (something not many will admit to) which is contrary to what you posted.

 

If you guys want to believe opinions, speculations and hearsay then feel free. For me it doesn't get much better then a direct interview with the man in question, clear cut and concise.

 

I met John Butler one summer day. We were walking into the Baseball Park (may have been called Pilot Field or Dunn Tire) at the same.

 

I asked him if he was John Butler and he said yes. I introduced myself and we shook hands. He hand was the size of a catchers mitt. I told him about our BillsBackers group in St. Louis. He loved hearing about it. We talked for about 20 minutes about a lot of things, mostly football.

 

He said he loves the Bills and Buffalo and that he was lucky to have such a great job doing what he loved. He spoked with energy and passion. You could tell he meant every word of it.

 

I remember asking him if he was interested in Ferrell Edmunds as a free agent TE since Metzellars was gone. They had drafted Lonnis Johnson and Tony Cline. He said that Cline was already looking very impressive. He even said his opinion was that Edmunds took to many "plays off". I could not believe how candid he was.

 

Whatever happened between him and Wilson must have been very bad. I recall reading that Wilson visited Butler before Butler's passing and they reconciled.