K-9 Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 look, Nix and Gailey are good at one thing...offering excuses. Show us some good football, and go out and win in the regular season. I for one do not know how on earth you are going to do that with the talent you presently have, but I'll be delighted to see you actually win nine games. If you don't...I'll be delighted to see a new gm and coach next year. Well Tenny if they can't do it with the talent they presently have as you say, then how can you expect them to win? Win or lose, they'll be back next year assuming Buddy and Chan don't get too frustrated with the bean counters. GO BILLS!!!
Mark Long Beach Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) I also enjoy the conversation. You are wrong if you think that I am characterizing the owner as a villain. That is not the case. Fair. I'm most frustrated by the many who post that do think that he is. My steadfast view is that as an owner he is incompetent. I'm not basing it on hs personality or moral traits. It is simply drawn from the way he has managed the franchise. Again, success in the NFL is very easy to measure. Just look at the record. There is no one management style that is required. There are a lot of various approaches that have proved successful. What is successful is very easy to determine. All you need to know is the W/L record. Yup, and by this measure he's a below average owner. By this same measure, for the first 40 years he was an average owner with well above average championship appearances. So was he incompetent then? You impressively point out the the failures of those who have been very disappointing in guiding the football operation. If you think it through you will realize that you are making a circular argument. The person who selected those flawed operators was the owner. He, with little consultation from the outside, is making the major hires for his business establishment. The owner is 92 yrs old. At this stage in life you don't get better at what you do, especially if you haven't been good at what you do. If the owner wants to remain on the stage well past his prime, that is his prerogative. If that is the case then there should be no problem holding him accountable. Hold him accountable, yes. For (especially) the last 10 years he's failed consistently. I don't mind criticism because the Bills have failed to get it together, so he's earned it. But I guess I can't stand the degree to which I generally see posted. I also don't understand how it's impossible to see that things have changed. For the better, I cannot say. My Crystal Ball is seriously cloudy. (I should get a new one) I think that I'm basing some of my opinions on having been in charge of hiring for my company. I've witnessed some spectacular employees who went far above what I expected of them (and their position) and similarly some flame-out despite how good they seemed or "interviewed well" if you remember Greg Williams. Using the example of coaches, GW is a fabulous Defensive Coordinator, but a tragically bad head coach. (Maybe he learned something... Bill Bellichek did) Similarly, look what happened with George Seifert. He had one of the best all-time NFL coaching records at 98-30 before moving to Carolina and crashing spectacularly with 16-32. Hiring isn't easy and doesn't always pan out the way you want it to. In our last Craptastic decade we started with the last legs of GM John Butler who I think wasn't a bad GM, followed by 3 failed hires/promotions, followed by Nix & Co. It is my opinion the hire of ole Whitey (Donahoe) did massive damage to Bills. Much more than is apparent to the eye. Not just for his GM-ship which was basically bad, but because it caused a deep sense of distrust in Ralph of the GM position and it having too much power. This set the stage for a bad hire and a bad promotion. The Buffalo Bills have a strong and loyal following but the fans were in big time revolt against Donahoe and his poor fan relations. He hired Modrak to run scouting for the decade and we've seen just how bad that was. But even worse was poisoning the well with the relationship of GM to the Owner. Marv Levy is a great coach, motivator, delegator, and even PR guy. Most importantly he was hired because he was trusted by Ralph. He is not a good front office personnel guy. Nor were the people left over from Donahoe any good at personnel either (Modrak & his staff). Sadly a big time failure. I think that Marv could have been a good GM figure because of his delegation abilities/leadership but he failed at Recruitment because the staff he delegated to stunk and his coaching selection was a major disaster. ugh. Promoting Russ Brandon (his best & brightest employee) is like hiring Greg Williams. A wizard at lower levels but way outclassed when promoted. He is not a good football personnel manager and the same personnel evaluation staff (Modrak) remained. Disaster. After two poor internal hires (promotion) he went outside to the San Diego organization with Nix and gave him some real power. (Yes he was hired for a year here first before he assumed the GM role, but that's still an outside hire. Nix IS a good football personnel guy. We'll see if he can translate from Assistant GM of 7 years for very good San Diego team to a full-time GM of the Bills successfully. I think the odds are quite good. Why can't people be optimistic about that? Edited August 25, 2011 by Mark Long Beach
BillnutinHouston Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) The deception is patently obvious. Nix talked to JW, and JW came away from that conversation connecting the dots that this trade happened with less than perfect agreement between the front office types. Please cite the specific language in the article that hints at ANY sort of disagreement. Since we're parsing language...re: the trade, the article has Nix "leaving that job with Jim Overdorf". "Leaving" doesn't imply in any way that Nix was excluded or overruled. To the contrary, it connotes Nix having the power to handle it, but willfully delegating the task to Overdorf. Edited August 25, 2011 by BillnutinHouston
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) As far as the issue of keeping the team in Buffalo the person who has the most influence on that issue is the current owner. Only indirectly. If he doesn't leave the team to an "immediate family member" as that term is defined in the NFL Constitution & Bylaws, then the next owner of the team is determined by vote of the other 31 owners. Ralph has publicly stated that he is not leaving the team to a family member. Assuming Ralph doesn't change his mind about that, I just hope he hasn't already "poisoned the well" for the eventual owner vote by constantly complaining to the other owners about how difficult it is to be economically viable in Buffalo. The link below is from 2008, but does anybody think Ralph has whistled a different tune to the other owners lately? http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-ownersrankingspartone072208 Ralph Wilson: A few months shy of his 90th birthday, Wilson should be in a celebratory mood. Largely because of his bitching, moaning and general grumpiness, Wilson was essentially handed the keys to a monster market, in the form of a deal to play eight games in Toronto over the next five years – one which guarantees his franchise $78 million. “We’ll see if the guy stops whining and complaining now,” one owner says. “Toronto, if you put it in the U.S., would be the fourth-largest city. If Jerry Jones staked a claim to Mexico City, or Robert Kraft did it with Montreal, or Paul Allen wanted to play one game a year in Vancouver, we’d never approve it. Ralph was given a special accommodation because we’re sick of hearing him cry about being in a small market.” Wonder which other NFL owner made the quoted comment? From the exact language used, it probably wasn't Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft or Paul Allen. Edit: You can quibble about whether Ralph already had a right to play as many games as he wanted in Toronto because of the 75 mile territorial limit for franchise exclusivity, but even if Ralph had such contractual rights, how is this owner going to evaluate the Buffalo market's future opportunities when it comes time to vote on the next owner of the Bills? Edited August 25, 2011 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead
Sisyphean Bills Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 Please cite the specific language in the article that hints at ANY sort of disagreement. Since we're parsing language...re: the trade, the article has Nix "leaving that job with Jim Overdorf". "Leaving" doesn't imply in any way that Nix was excluded or overruled. To the contrary, it connotes Nix having the power to handle it, but willfully delegating the task to Overdorf. Nix has provided varying explanations on the Evans trade. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you allow JW's comments outside of the article (which you do not apparently), he made the inference pretty plain. Maybe you should take it up with him.
JohnC Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) . Yup, and by this measure he's a below average owner. By this same measure, for the first 40 years he was an average owner with well above average championship appearances. So was he incompetent then? If you are uncomfortable with the word incompetent then let me make you a little less squeamish and simply say that he has for the most part been a very mediocre owner. In the very competitive environment of the NFL with a lot of strong willed and determined owners Ralph is a person in which the pro football world has passed him by. In my view I rank him near the bottom of the current owners. He falls in the same bottom of the barrel grouping with whacky Al Davis and the dope from Cincinatti, Mike Brown. The most scintillating period of the franchise was in the Polian era. The owner screwed it up. No one person assumes the total fault for the Polian departure fiasco. But his departure was inevitable. Pugnacious and bombastic Bill Polian was not going to survive in the Wilson/Littman business model. In a certain respect the franchise never recovered from BP's unceremoneous dump. Hold him accountable, yes. For (especially) the last 10 years he's failed consistently. I don't mind criticism because the Bills have failed to get it together, so he's earned it. But I guess I can't stand the degree to which I generally see posted. I also don't understand how it's impossible to see that things have changed. For the better, I cannot say. My Crystal Ball is seriously cloudy. (I should get a new one) I'm not as optimistic as you that things have substantially changed. The structure of the organization, especially with the (aging) fading of the owner calls into question how the business model he has created will respond in the near future. I think that I'm basing some of my opinions on having been in charge of hiring for my company. I've witnessed some spectacular employees who went far above what I expected of them (and their position) and similarly some flame-out despite how good they seemed or "interviewed well" if you remember Greg Williams. Using the example of coaches, GW is a fabulous Defensive Coordinator, but a tragically bad head coach. (Maybe he learned something... Bill Bellichek did) Similarly, look what happened with George Seifert. He had one of the best all-time NFL coaching records at 98-30 before moving to Carolina and crashing spectacularly with 16-32. Hiring isn't easy and doesn't always pan out the way you want it to. In any organization no one strikes gold with every hire. That is a standard impossible to attain. But when the rate of failure is at a consistently excessive rate then the problem is with the person doing the hiring. Ralph has an old school mentality. He is very insular. He is comfortable dealing with people he is familiar with. That is one of his major faults when he is hiring new staff. He is surrounded with people who reinforce his weaknesses, the inability to consult outside of his very tight circle. Even the Nix hire was to a certain extent an inside hire. He knew him from his former stint with the organization. Marv Levy is a great coach, motivator, delegator, and even PR guy. Most importantly he was hired because he was trusted by Ralph. Promoting Russ Brandon (his best & brightest employee) is like hiring Greg Williams. A wizard at lower levels but way outclassed when promoted. He is not a good football personnel manager and the same personnel evaluation staff (Modrak) remained. Disaster. The Marv Levy hiring was an insanely stupid hiring. Hiring someone who was so blatantly ill-equipped to take charge of the football operations, a billion $$$ business, because you are familiar and comfortable with him is an egregious example of incompetency. Then replacing him with the marketing guru (Brandon) was outright weird. Another glaring example of the owner's incompetence. I'm not trying to be mean-spirited. The franchise is a reflection of the caliber of its ownership. Don't take my word for it; just look at the record. Edited August 25, 2011 by JohnC
BillnutinHouston Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Nix has provided varying explanations on the Evans trade. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you allow JW's comments outside of the article (which you do not apparently), he made the inference pretty plain. Maybe you should take it up with him. Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. There are plenty of sentences in the article that one can "read into" and see a management split, but I still maintain that the article offers nothing conclusive. Even the quote you cite above is a rorschach (inkblot) test at best - it merely allows you to see what you want to see. Remind me again - what were JW's comments outside of the article? I remember reading a few along the way, but all I recall were cagy one-liner responses - kind of the thread equivalent of a grunt. I read those and asked myself, what's JW's point in doing that? Either say what you know, tell us you can't elaborate, or stay away from the "Add Reply" button altogether. Edited August 25, 2011 by BillnutinHouston
thewildrabbit Posted August 25, 2011 Posted August 25, 2011 We will probably never know what happened between Polian and Wilson that led to his departure. Maybe Polian will write a memoir some day but until then it is conjecture. One thing people tend to forget is that Polian was operating in Pre-salary cap days, and the Bills were big spenders at the time to keep their core together. Butler came in continuing that approach with the cap to the point that in the years following his departure, theBills were in salary cap hell. Also, as I recall it, Wilson tried during Butlers contract year to negotiate a new deal and Butler refused to discuss it. It was widely believed at the time that Butler had a handshake deal in place with San Diego, but clearly he wanted to leave. Was that because of Wilson, or because the Bills we in major trouble with the cap and were headed for a downslide because of it. Perhaps he just did not want the challenge of cleaning up the mess he created. As for Smith, Butler took him with him. He was not fired as I recall. What happened was that at the end of the season John Butlers contract was up and the owner offered him a new contract, a contract that Wilson thought was fair. When Butler didn't immediately accept Ralph Wilson's offer his response was "if I can't hire you, then I'll fire you!" Which sort of shocked everyone because this happened in December and the season wasn't even over yet. Butler probably thought he had until the end of the season to make up his mind, after all relocating and moving the family around is a big deal to some, and from what I recall he liked working for Wilson and liked living in Buffalo. Under Butler: The Bills are the NFL's best example of a successful team built through the draft and minimal free-agent signings. The Bills have had an average draft position of 22nd in each round since Butler replaced Bill Polian as general manager in 1993, yet have made the playoffs in five of those eight seasons. The Bills also had an NFL-high 18 draft picks filling 22 starting positions this season. So because Butler didn't immediately sign the offer that Wilson thought was fair, Wilson fired him...and cut his own throat in the process. This owner has had a notoriously cantankerous disposition towards some of the people who worked for him. It might explain as to why so many have refused jobs offered by him, and why some ended up leaving.
JohnC Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 What happened was that at the end of the season John Butlers contract was up and the owner offered him a new contract, a contract that Wilson thought was fair. When Butler didn't immediately accept Ralph Wilson's offer his response was "if I can't hire you, then I'll fire you!" Which sort of shocked everyone because this happened in December and the season wasn't even over yet. Butler probably thought he had until the end of the season to make up his mind, after all relocating and moving the family around is a big deal to some, and from what I recall he liked working for Wilson and liked living in Buffalo. Under Butler: The Bills are the NFL's best example of a successful team built through the draft and minimal free-agent signings. The Bills have had an average draft position of 22nd in each round since Butler replaced Bill Polian as general manager in 1993, yet have made the playoffs in five of those eight seasons. The Bills also had an NFL-high 18 draft picks filling 22 starting positions this season. So because Butler didn't immediately sign the offer that Wilson thought was fair, Wilson fired him...and cut his own throat in the process. This owner has had a notoriously cantankerous disposition towards some of the people who worked for him. It might explain as to why so many have refused jobs offered by him, and why some ended up leaving. I respectfully disagree with your version. The first contract renewal Wilson made to Butler was below the market rate. Butler was very put off by what he considered to be a very insulting low contract offer. The owner tried to get Butler to agree to a new contract----raising the contract offer to a more competitive rate. Butler kept putting off the owner regarding the contract issue. Ralph Wilson isn't stupid. He realized that Butler was not going to re-sign even at the higher rate. So he fired him---which in actuality was a moot point because the current contract was almost over. Ralph suspected that John Butler had an under the table agreement with San Diego. Shortly after Ralph fired Butler he quickly signed a new deal with San Diego. So Ralph was probably right about his suspicions that Butler was leaving. After the split Butler made it more known that he found it intolerable working for the meddling owner and his constant harping about costs. He was simply fed up with the way owner operated. Afterwards, when the owner found out that John Butler had cancer he called him and told him he wanted to bury the hatchet and patch up their differences. Considering that Ralph does not tolerate what he considers to be disloyalty he did the magnanimous and gracious thing to resolve their differences before JB died. I'm pretty sure my version is accurate. If anyone else has a different version I would like to hear it.
spartacus Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 As follow up to an earlier post, it's already starting. The Kyle Williams deal is reportedly almost done. Then the Bills start working on Stevie Johnson. https://twitter.com/#!/JoeB_WGR The Bills are going to spend a bunch of cash this year, it just won't be a lot on shiny new toys. The Kirk Morrison deals are good though because he probably came very cheap, and it's one year while they groom Shep and Chris White. If Morrison plays well, perhaps they give him a new deal. I like our LBs as a group now though, a complete transformation and a good one. Great if Merriman is back. I do predict, however, we will sign an OL after some cuts from other teams. More veterans could be moving out of Buffalo, too, though. of course we will sign an OL - from someone's practice squad or off the street they will have immense talent not tapped by the prior team which will be realized by the tremendous teaching coaches in Buffalo
Doc Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I respectfully disagree with your version. The first contract renewal Wilson made to Butler was below the market rate. Butler was very put off by what he considered to be a very insulting low contract offer. The owner tried to get Butler to agree to a new contract----raising the contract offer to a more competitive rate. Butler kept putting off the owner regarding the contract issue. Ralph Wilson isn't stupid. He realized that Butler was not going to re-sign even at the higher rate. So he fired him---which in actuality was a moot point because the current contract was almost over. Ralph suspected that John Butler had an under the table agreement with San Diego. Shortly after Ralph fired Butler he quickly signed a new deal with San Diego. So Ralph was probably right about his suspicions that Butler was leaving. After the split Butler made it more known that he found it intolerable working for the meddling owner and his constant harping about costs. He was simply fed up with the way owner operated. Afterwards, when the owner found out that John Butler had cancer he called him and told him he wanted to bury the hatchet and patch up their differences. Considering that Ralph does not tolerate what he considers to be disloyalty he did the magnanimous and gracious thing to resolve their differences before JB died. I'm pretty sure my version is accurate. If anyone else has a different version I would like to hear it. Sounds about right. As for "harping about costs," Butler had no problems spending Ralph's money.
birdog1960 Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Butler had no problems spending Ralph's money. you make that sound like a bad thing. you get what you pay for (or at least, you rarely get more than you pay for).
Just in Atlanta Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Well written, reported and, most importantly, accurate. Have heard Overdorf's name before, but really didn't know anything about him. Not a big fan after reading that story.
thewildrabbit Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) I respectfully disagree with your version. The first contract renewal Wilson made to Butler was below the market rate. Butler was very put off by what he considered to be a very insulting low contract offer. The owner tried to get Butler to agree to a new contract----raising the contract offer to a more competitive rate. Butler kept putting off the owner regarding the contract issue. Ralph Wilson isn't stupid. He realized that Butler was not going to re-sign even at the higher rate. So he fired him---which in actuality was a moot point because the current contract was almost over. Ralph suspected that John Butler had an under the table agreement with San Diego. Shortly after Ralph fired Butler he quickly signed a new deal with San Diego. So Ralph was probably right about his suspicions that Butler was leaving. After the split Butler made it more known that he found it intolerable working for the meddling owner and his constant harping about costs. He was simply fed up with the way owner operated. Afterwards, when the owner found out that John Butler had cancer he called him and told him he wanted to bury the hatchet and patch up their differences. Considering that Ralph does not tolerate what he considers to be disloyalty he did the magnanimous and gracious thing to resolve their differences before JB died. I'm pretty sure my version is accurate. If anyone else has a different version I would like to hear it. Howabout Don Banks version? I recall reading this article, glad I could find it. http://sportsillustr...s_insider_1220/ ""But the facts are these: Wilson's contract offers weren't competitive. Despite being one of the most accomplished GM's in the league, and a shrewd judge of personnel, Butler's current salary was about $500,000, putting him in the lower third among his NFL peers. Wilson's last offer was in the range of $1 million, or even a little less than that, a figure he said was the average of the eight highest-paid general managers in the league."" With Green Bay's Ron Wolf setting the bar in the league at $2.2 million per year, and Colts GM Bill Polian earning a reported $1.3 million, Butler, 54, was in line for more than $1 million per year. Butler wasn't looking to hold the small-market Bills hostage, but he didn't accept Wilson's contract offers because he didn't believe they were in the ballpark."" "'Butler contends that he didn't see Wilson's axe coming, and takes exception with the perception that he was planning to draw Wilson into a bidding war for his services. "I really didn't think this was a possibility, because I'm still under contract until Feb. 28," said Butler, the Bills' general manager since 1993. "I could see it was really pressing on him in the last couple of days. But really, it takes two to be comfortable. I thought the best time to talk was at the conclusion of the season, when you sit down without emotions running so high. I didn't see where there was going to be any harm to the franchise in doing that." How Butler felt about Buffalo.... "I'm experiencing things for the first time," Butler told CNNSI.com on Wednesday afternoon. "You know, 14 years is a long time. It's tough to leave when you've been some place for so long. It has been a wonderful place." From what I read Butler loved working for the Buffalo Bills and loved the area and didn't have any plans to leave, he simply wanted a competitive wage Edited August 26, 2011 by Harvey lives
San Jose Bills Fan Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Yes, excellent point. He wrote that Nix tried to distance himself from the situation and that Overdorf does the trades, but did not say who the source of the latter information was. It could even have been multiple sources. Thanks for making that clear. What JW actually wrote was this: "Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration." Maybe my point is trivial maybe not… but there's a difference between you writing that "Overdorf does the trades" and JW writing that "Nix didn't handle the trade talks." I think there is another factor at work here. The Bills' financial oriented moves have become more transparent now, because of the recent CBA rules. Last year, this year, and 2012 have no salary floor. Prior to 2010, there was some kind of salary floor (If I recall correctly), and so there was a minimum salary level below which money savings were negligible. During the last several years we saw a few relatively high-dollar contracts to rookies (Maybin, Spiller), FAs (Dockery) and team members (Kelsay). Not a lot, and the Bills still underspent, but they were near the middle of the pack on spending. Cutting a veteran to save money was not as effective if they could be required to pay someone else. Contrast that with the current situation. The rookies have been locked into a wage scale. The salary floor does not start until 2013. Every dollar cut from salary goes to the bottom line. Then we see the Evans trade. I believe 4th round was "fair value" for Lee Evans based on other trades in the NFL. However, it cannot reasonably be said to be likely to improve the team's play and is (in my opinion) more likely to harm it. Some might argue it is neutral, but the financial benefit is obvious. So, I think the difference in criticism is a combination of the contrast with Pegula and the newfound transparency of the team's financial moves. Consider this - the finance guys have to stockpile money now, because they will be subject to a salary floor in 2013. Underspending in 2011-2012 is the only way for them to pad the bank account on the cost side. Starting in 2013, most of the team's money efforts will need to be on revenue increases. I'm guessing most people are expecting a new owner by then. Please post more often. We need more intelligent, thoughtful posters here. And speaking of such… You don't seem to realize that nobody cared about your views regarding the Bills ownership. You aren't the first person to take issue with Bills management, nor will you be the last. The "Ralph is cheap" argument is not unique to you, in fact its well represented at TBD. What drew the ire of so many posters here at TBD was not your opinions, but your need to inject them in seemingly every thread no matter what the topic of discussion. One of the great, newer posters on our board. Thank you for elucidating this perfectly, Jauronimo. Your sense of humor, intelligence and excellent writing help keep the overall quality of our forum at a level I can live with. There's about 2 dozen posters here who I always look forward to hearing from… Back to BF, I've actually grown to appreciate the subject of our ire from time to time but there was a long run where he was like a broken record and it became VERY TIRING. When he moves away from the constant criticism, he has some good takes. I don't come here to listen to people complain. I come here to listen to good, solid takes.
Taro T Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Fair. I'm most frustrated by the many who post that do think that he is. Yup, and by this measure he's a below average owner. By this same measure, for the first 40 years he was an average owner with well above average championship appearances. So was he incompetent then? Hold him accountable, yes. For (especially) the last 10 years he's failed consistently. I don't mind criticism because the Bills have failed to get it together, so he's earned it. But I guess I can't stand the degree to which I generally see posted. I also don't understand how it's impossible to see that things have changed. For the better, I cannot say. My Crystal Ball is seriously cloudy. (I should get a new one) I think that I'm basing some of my opinions on having been in charge of hiring for my company. I've witnessed some spectacular employees who went far above what I expected of them (and their position) and similarly some flame-out despite how good they seemed or "interviewed well" if you remember Greg Williams. Using the example of coaches, GW is a fabulous Defensive Coordinator, but a tragically bad head coach. (Maybe he learned something... Bill Bellichek did) Similarly, look what happened with George Seifert. He had one of the best all-time NFL coaching records at 98-30 before moving to Carolina and crashing spectacularly with 16-32. Hiring isn't easy and doesn't always pan out the way you want it to. In our last Craptastic decade we started with the last legs of GM John Butler who I think wasn't a bad GM, followed by 3 failed hires/promotions, followed by Nix & Co. It is my opinion the hire of ole Whitey (Donahoe) did massive damage to Bills. Much more than is apparent to the eye. Not just for his GM-ship which was basically bad, but because it caused a deep sense of distrust in Ralph of the GM position and it having too much power. This set the stage for a bad hire and a bad promotion. The Buffalo Bills have a strong and loyal following but the fans were in big time revolt against Donahoe and his poor fan relations. He hired Modrak to run scouting for the decade and we've seen just how bad that was. But even worse was poisoning the well with the relationship of GM to the Owner. Marv Levy is a great coach, motivator, delegator, and even PR guy. Most importantly he was hired because he was trusted by Ralph. He is not a good front office personnel guy. Nor were the people left over from Donahoe any good at personnel either (Modrak & his staff). Sadly a big time failure. I think that Marv could have been a good GM figure because of his delegation abilities/leadership but he failed at Recruitment because the staff he delegated to stunk and his coaching selection was a major disaster. ugh. Promoting Russ Brandon (his best & brightest employee) is like hiring Greg Williams. A wizard at lower levels but way outclassed when promoted. He is not a good football personnel manager and the same personnel evaluation staff (Modrak) remained. Disaster. After two poor internal hires (promotion) he went outside to the San Diego organization with Nix and gave him some real power. (Yes he was hired for a year here first before he assumed the GM role, but that's still an outside hire. Nix IS a good football personnel guy. We'll see if he can translate from Assistant GM of 7 years for very good San Diego team to a full-time GM of the Bills successfully. I think the odds are quite good. Why can't people be optimistic about that? To answer your bolded question: absolutely. Why do I say "absolutely?" Because Lou Saban was the reason his team made it to the 2 AFL championship runs, and he and Lou couldn't keep that together and because Bill Polian was the reason they made it to 4 consecutive Superbowls and he fired him in the middle of that run. IF Ralph has lucked into a keeper in Buddy Nix, he sure as heck will screw it up (if he lives that long). His past history shows that he (and his lackeys such as Littman) can't coexist w/ guys that know what they're doing. He screwed it up w/ Saban twice, he screwed it up w/ Knox, he screwed it up w/ Polian in spades, he screwed it up w/ Butler (who was nowhere nearly as talented as those others); and I have no reason to believe he won't mess it up again in the future given the chance. There is absolutely no LEGITIMATE excuse for having fired Polian. That guy has been 1 of the top 3 best GM's in his entire tenure in the league, and he'd be here today if Ralph hadn't been an idiot. If you can come up with a legitimate reason to have fired Polian (and I don't consider his butting heads w/ Littman nor calling Ralph's daughter a nasty name when she reported to him but was playing the 'my daddy owns the team' card legitimate reasons for firing him), then I might agree that Ralph gets criticism he doesn't deserve. But until I see that reason, I will stick with the belief that Ralph has earned all (well, most of it at any rate) the criticism he gets.
JohnC Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 (edited) Howabout Don Banks version? I recall reading this article, glad I could find it. http://sportsillustr...s_insider_1220/ ""But the facts are these: Wilson's contract offers weren't competitive. Despite being one of the most accomplished GM's in the league, and a shrewd judge of personnel, Butler's current salary was about $500,000, putting him in the lower third among his NFL peers. Wilson's last offer was in the range of $1 million, or even a little less than that, a figure he said was the average of the eight highest-paid general managers in the league."" With Green Bay's Ron Wolf setting the bar in the league at $2.2 million per year, and Colts GM Bill Polian earning a reported $1.3 million, Butler, 54, was in line for more than $1 million per year. Butler wasn't looking to hold the small-market Bills hostage, but he didn't accept Wilson's contract offers because he didn't believe they were in the ballpark."" "'Butler contends that he didn't see Wilson's axe coming, and takes exception with the perception that he was planning to draw Wilson into a bidding war for his services. "I really didn't think this was a possibility, because I'm still under contract until Feb. 28," said Butler, the Bills' general manager since 1993. "I could see it was really pressing on him in the last couple of days. But really, it takes two to be comfortable. I thought the best time to talk was at the conclusion of the season, when you sit down without emotions running so high. I didn't see where there was going to be any harm to the franchise in doing that." How Butler felt about Buffalo.... "I'm experiencing things for the first time," Butler told CNNSI.com on Wednesday afternoon. "You know, 14 years is a long time. It's tough to leave when you've been some place for so long. It has been a wonderful place." From what I read Butler loved working for the Buffalo Bills and loved the area and didn't have any plans to leave, he simply wanted a competitive wage Thanks for the additional information but to some degree it isn't in conflict with my original post. As I stated Ralph low balled him (what a surprise LOL) but then upped his offers to a more competitive rate. While Butler preferred waiting for the end of the season (your documented version) the owner wanted to get it done. Ralph's interpretation of the situation (right or wrong I can't say for sure) was that Butler was putting him off with no intention of signing. Once he felt that the employee wasn't going to sign under any terms (correct perception or not???) he fired him. JB's current contract was virtually over anyway. Ralph can be a prickly person. But his suspicions were not unwarrented. Shortly after the firng Butler/A.J. Smith quickly signed a new deal with San Diego. In addition, with his departure followed an exodus of a number team scouts to join him in sunny California. Then followed the Donahoe and post Donahoe era bringing with it the downward spiraling of the franchise. I for one believe that Butler was going to leave, especially after the first contract offer for what he considered to be an insulting low ball offer. Ralph's explanation for his low offer was that he didn't consider Butler to be a full service GM, he categorized him as merely being a personnel man. There is no doubt that Ralph is always adept at rationalizing his frugality. As I stated in the original posts there were numerous stories of Butler recounting to others (Mortonson) how stressful it was working for the meddlesome and frugal owner. Shortly after the Polian departure there were numerous stories of his epic battles with Ralph's finance guardians. The point being the working environment and sideshows were very challenging and exhausting. I guess if we blend in the two versions of this episode the truth will be found. Sometimes it is not an issue of the facts of the story so much as the perception and interpretation of the facts of the story. Edited August 26, 2011 by JohnC
SouthernMan Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 I'll repost this in this thread, which is the real topic at hand. In answer to K-9's good question of why would Nix stand for this, I stated... This is just my speculation from what I know, have heard from very good sources, and have surmised,. I think that since Overdork handles all of the salary cap stuff and all contracts, he has power over Nix on some aspects of the typical GM job. Overdork has been here forever and he's Ralph's man (who happens to work from behind the curtain). We heard he has cut players before, like Troy Vincent and others, and has that power. So if he thinks he can save 7 mil total this year and next by jettisoning Evans, he can do it and Nix doesn't have much say. But Nix is not going to jeopardize his job, or the organization by publicly announcing it. It's my belief that Nix and gailey were very likely told before they came on board that Overdork holds that power, and there may be times when they are powerless over personnel decisions. It won't happen all the time but it could happen. That may be why a bigger name was not hired, maybe they wouldn't work under those conditions but that is total conjecture. I have not heard that anyway. It seems possible. I also believe that Gailey and Nix are both very qualified for their jobs but they likely weren't going to get this opportunity anywhere else but Buffalo. Nix very unlikely. Gailey probably not either. I think, rightfully, they thought to themselves can I live with this? And at their age, and what they want out of life and their work, they decided yes. Maybe if they were a little younger they could have taken a stand against it. Maybe if they had a little more power or opportunity they could have walked away. All I know is if I were either of them, I would have very likely taken the job like they did, knowing it wasn't ideal. But better than not having a GM job or NFL Head Coach job at all, and never realizing your real dreams. Again, that is just my reading on it. And I can't blame them. But it explains a lot. It also explains why, perhaps, they didn't offer Clabo more. Overdork does the contracts. All of them. I can't honestly say that I know how other NFL teams operate behind the scenes but I doubt any one of them has a bean counter making these kinds of football and personnel decisions as opposed to a GM and talent evaluator who learned how to work the cap and negotiate contracts. Overdork never was a talent guy or football guy, he is a glorified accountant (GG says he's a lawyer, which I believe is true but to me he is acting as accountant not a lawyer). And he is making football decisions like getting rid of Lee Evans. It is no wonder we are where we are. It's possible that Nix and Gailey can overcome this handicap. But it surely makes it much harder. And not all of the grumbling by guys like Fred Jackson can be put on them. Look for the Man Behind the Curtain. And yet, they coddle the inferior high-paid player (Spiller) and piss off the absolute bargain (Jackson). Since they've more or less conceded this to be (another) re-building* year, why not see what they can get for Spiller in a trade (probably a 2nd or 3rd)** * doesn't re-building suggest that they were at one time "built" and will be that way again soon? ** amazing how player's draft value plummets after some seasoning with the Bills
Beerball Posted August 26, 2011 Posted August 26, 2011 Ralph can be a prickly person. But his suspicions were not unwarrented. Shortly after the firng Butler/A.J. Smith quickly signed a new deal with San Diego. In addition, with his departure followed an exodus of a number team scouts to join him in sunny California. Then followed the Donahoe and post Donahoe era bringing with it the downward spiraling of the franchise. I for one believe that Butler was going to leave, especially after the first contract offer for what he considered to be an insulting low ball offer. Ralph's explanation for his low offer was that he didn't consider Butler to be a full service GM, he categorized him as merely being a personnel man. There is no doubt that Ralph is always adept at rationalizing his frugality. As I stated in the original posts there were numerous stories of Butler recounting to others (Mortonson) how stressful it was working for the meddlesome and frugal owner. Shortly after the Polian departure there were numerous stories of his epic battles with Ralph's finance guardians. The point being the working environment and sideshows were very challenging and exhausting. I guess if we blend in the two versions of this episode the truth will be found. Sometimes it is not an issue of the facts of the story so much as the perception and interpretation of the facts of the story. And I don't think that SD regrets that move one iota, nor do Carolina and Indy who picked up another Bills castoff. People who are talented will find a job. * doesn't re-building suggest that they were at one time "built" and will be that way again soon? That's actually a very good point. What do we call the situation that the Bills find themselves in? Groundhog Day?
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