AP State of the Bills

[Mark Long Beach]

Polian was dispatched because of his contentious battles with Littman over spending. Littman had little to do with the Polian's SB years. The Bills won despite Littman's obstruction not because of it.

 

It's all a matter of perspective. Littman helped spend and spend to get us to the Superbowls. Since it's his job to keep spending within a limit I have no doubt of battles with Polian. That's the nature of the two jobs of Polian to build a team and Littman to keep it within spending limits. But we were a big spending team back then. That's hardly in spite of Littman's obstruction. The real reasons of Polian's departure have been kept under wraps, but I've always been of the opinion that it really started getting personal. Not just job conflict.

 

Absolutely. He is the one person most responsbile for the hires and departures. The organization is structured the way he wants it structured. The franchise's record is absolutely a reflection of it's owner. Unless you don't believe in accountability no one is more responsible for the state of the organization.

 

The owner has done all the hiring and firing of the GMs. How is he not responsible for the serial turnover of staff?

 

He is and I admit and agree with this. But why does he not get credit for when things go well? We had several great runs and a handful of other good ones. We've stunk lately agreed. So he fired them and brought in new people. Almost a complete new football staff, new coaches and new players. But why not the credit for bringing in Nix and rearranging the scouting staff (& firing Modrak), bringing in a well respected Asst GM in Whaley, bringing in an experienced coach with a winning record???

 

Ralphyboy isn't out there catching passes and he's not out there coaching them, he's not out there scouting the youth and he's not running the day to day organization. We've changed practically all of those things and it looks to the better. Why not any credit?

[MDH]

 

 

Ralphyboy isn't out there catching passes and he's not out there coaching them, he's not out there scouting the youth and he's not running the day to day organization. We've changed practically all of those things and it looks to the better. Why not any credit?

 

 

 

The Bills are one of the 3 worst franchises in the NFL over the past decade. I'm willing to give Wilson all the credit in the world for that.

 

If you think the fan base is supposed to be happy that once - 20 years ago - the team went through a winning period you've drunk too much kool-aid.

[Mark Long Beach]

The Bills are one of the 3 worst franchises in the NFL over the past decade. I'm willing to give Wilson all the credit in the world for that.

 

If you think the fan base is supposed to be happy that once - 20 years ago - the team went through a winning period you've drunk too much kool-aid.

 

I'm sure there's a bridge around here for you.

 

Or maybe the Pats need another fan, they're likely to win a bunch this season for you.

[EastRochBillsfan]

Sorry, but YOU'RE the problem, not me. If it weren't for the self-titled, and self-entitled "true fans" like yourself who seem willing to buy whatever bill of goods Ralph sells you, perhaps there would be real change.

 

Well big man, take one for the team then if thats how you feel. Boycott the Bills. Don't throw money their way. Don't watch the games on tv as that'll send tv revenue their way. That should teach 'em!

 

 

here here

and u can go with him.

 

 

ERBF, I hope you are calmer now than when you posted this.

 

We are all a part of the Bills experience. You may consider me a "basher," but I raised 3 girls as Bills fans, 450 miles away from RWS. I actually think that it helped tham in life in terms of being loyal and to persevere.

This is a board that is founded and frequented by a lot of very smart people (myself not included lol). Speaking for myself, I care a lot about the Bills, the people I have met and interacted with from TBD, and the board itself. I sense that you feel the same way.

Some people are going to gripe. Some are going to think everything is great. Then, there is everything in between.

The bottom line imo is that we have great dialogue here. I have been bitching about blocking since the late 90's. Others have their own particular complaints.

With all due respect, my suggestion to you is to not let other Bills fans bother you. They are suffering, but they love this team as much as you do.

Thanks for the kind words Bill. And I am calmer now thank you. Honestly it's only a handfull of bills faithfull that get under my skin. I don't think of you as a Bills basher. You've had a valid gripe with the oline.(you may beat that horse to death, but valid nonetheless) But you also say positive things and constructively add to the conversation. It's just the guys who only post to say something negative that seem to bother me. The ones who go out of their way to bash our Bills. Constantly. I'm certainly not the only one here that gets annoyed with some of these guys. Why do you think a lot of your fellow old timers don't hang here too often anymore?

[Kelly the Dog]

Someone (Kelly?) said that Evans came to the Bills first and asked to be traded. And the Bills kept it hush-hush since Evans was well-respected by the Bills/Bills fans. That could easily be the "things I can't go on record about."

Never said that and don't think that is true. Except perhaps after the fact that he knew he was going to be shopped, he said he wanted to be traded to a contender.

[thewildrabbit]

It's all a matter of perspective. Littman helped spend and spend to get us to the Superbowls. Since it's his job to keep spending within a limit I have no doubt of battles with Polian. That's the nature of the two jobs of Polian to build a team and Littman to keep it within spending limits. But we were a big spending team back then. That's hardly in spite of Littman's obstruction. The real reasons of Polian's departure have been kept under wraps, but I've always been of the opinion that it really started getting personal. Not just job conflict.

 

Ralphyboy isn't out there catching passes and he's not out there coaching them, he's not out there scouting the youth and he's not running the day to day organization. We've changed practically all of those things and it looks to the better. Why not any credit?

Not from my view, Bill Polian was almost always in the news back then because he was fighting with Littman and the owner for basically everything, stadium improvements, drafting players, signing FA's... the Bills won despite the owner and Littman. Look whats happened to the team since Polian left!

 

Looking at what Bill Polian managed to do with the Bills, Panthers and Colts he is arguably the NFL's most brilliant GM / president in the last 30 years, and RW fired him He also fired John Butler and lost AJ Smith in doing so, 3 of the very best talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen. Because of those firings the Bills went thru over a decade of ineptitude and incompetence.

 

On the bright side...the stadium has been filled year after year and RW made a bunch of money

[JohnC]

Not from my view, Bill Polian was almost always in the news back then because he was fighting with Littman and the owner for basically everything, stadium improvements, drafting players, signing FA's... the Bills won despite the owner and Littman. Look whats happened to the team since Polian left!

 

Looking at what Bill Polian managed to do with the Bills, Panthers and Colts he is arguably the NFL's most brilliant GM / president in the last 30 years, and RW fired him He also fired John Butler and lost AJ Smith in doing so, 3 of the very best talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen. Because of those firings the Bills went thru over a decade of ineptitude and incompetence.

 

On the bright side...the stadium has been filled year after year and RW made a bunch of money

 

The link from the Buffalo News written by Bucky Gleason very well captures the sentiment of the owner's standing in the region. Some people will consider it an unfair bashing. I don't. Sometimes the brutal truth is very unappealing to hear.

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/columns/bucky-gleason/article533186.ece

[eball]

The link from the Buffalo News written by Bucky Gleason very well captures the sentiment of the owner's standing in the region. Some people will consider it an unfair bashing. I don't. Sometimes the brutal truth is very unappealing to hear.

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/columns/bucky-gleason/article533186.ece

It's very hard to argue with this perspective. I don't wish ill will on poor old Ralph, but a new owner with a commitment to (a) keeping the Bills in Buffalo and (b) winning championships can't come soon enough.

[JohnC]

It's all a matter of perspective. Littman helped spend and spend to get us to the Superbowls. Since it's his job to keep spending within a limit I have no doubt of battles with Polian. That's the nature of the two jobs of Polian to build a team and Littman to keep it within spending limits. But we were a big spending team back then. That's hardly in spite of Littman's obstruction. The real reasons of Polian's departure have been kept under wraps, but I've always been of the opinion that it really started getting personal. Not just job conflict.

 

 

 

He is and I admit and agree with this. But why does he not get credit for when things go well? We had several great runs and a handful of other good ones. We've stunk lately agreed. So he fired them and brought in new people. Almost a complete new football staff, new coaches and new players. But why not the credit for bringing in Nix and rearranging the scouting staff (& firing Modrak), bringing in a well respected Asst GM in Whaley, bringing in an experienced coach with a winning record???

 

Ralphyboy isn't out there catching passes and he's not out there coaching them, he's not out there scouting the youth and he's not running the day to day organization. We've changed practically all of those things and it looks to the better. Why not any credit?

 

To say that the owner has done some things well and then conclude that one must lavish praise for something that should be done routinely is absurd. One should make a judgment on the body of work and not slivers of action. There is a simple way to measure success in pro sports: the record. You don't make an ultimate judgment based on arguing over the staffing, the drafting, the free agent acquisitions, the coaches etc. The owner can do whatever he wants to do, and he certainly has done so. The results are reflected in the record. You can't escape with lame excuses as to why the record is dismal. Ralph Wilson in half of century of ownership of the franchise has been the most central person in the decisions that have been made within the franchise. That is indisputable.

 

Over more than a half century of ownership there have been more lossess than victories. In a system designed for parity the Bills will be out of the playoffs for a dozen consecutive years with the count continuing on for additional years. The record of the Bills against winning teams over the past decade is in the range of 20%.

 

You are (politely) insisting that I acknowledge and give him credit for doing some things right. My response to that is that it is impossible to get everything wrong, no matter how stupendously incompetent one can be.

 

The record is the record. The body of work is the body of work. It stands on its own without the necessity to polish something that can't be polished.

 

The below link is by Bucky Gleason of the BufNews. You probably disagree with it. But the general point is that the caliber of ownership does make a difference on how an organization functions.

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/columns/bucky-gleason/article533186.ece

 

It's very hard to argue with this perspective. I don't wish ill will on poor old Ralph, but a new owner with a commitment to (a) keeping the Bills in Buffalo and (b) winning championships can't come soon enough.

 

No one wishes the owner ill-will. That would be an ignorant thing to do. But what is apparent is that at this stage in life he is not capable of doing the job competently.

 

As far as the issue of keeping the team in Buffalo the person who has the most influence on that issue is the current owner. He made his mind up a long time ago. He is selling to the highest bidder regardless where the team will be located. Ralph is Ralph.

[birdog1960]

where has this candor from the press been? as others have mentioned, this s$#t is not new. is there something else bubbling under the surface that has prompted all this open wilson criticism by the press? at any rate, it's long overdue. it almost makes jerry sullivan look mainstream.

[GG]

where has this candor from the press been? as others have mentioned, this s$#t is not new. is there something else bubbling under the surface that has prompted all this open wilson criticism by the press? at any rate, it's long overdue. it almost makes jerry sullivan look mainstream.

 

I think that News, D&C and AP have reported on this angle for a while, granted Sullivan has always been more vocal. It's just more voluminous now, and as Gleason points out, Pegula's actions set a new bar for expectations in a city that's not familiar with demanding a winning product.

 

 

If I had to guess, it would be that journalists are probably as tired of the same song & dance as the fans. Journalists are more impartial than the fans. But their job is to report & comment on the events. So if you've been on the Bills beat for the last decade or so, you'd be tired of the doublespeak that's coming from OBD. Probably like Freddie Jackson airing out his grievances wasn't only related to him not starting on Saturday, but a combination of stupifying moves by the administration, the press is calling the team out on the inconsistent message.

 

OTOH, who knows, maybe there is a real power struggle in the front office if Wilson is truly ill?

[Ramius]

It's all a matter of perspective. Littman helped spend and spend to get us to the Superbowls. Since it's his job to keep spending within a limit I have no doubt of battles with Polian. That's the nature of the two jobs of Polian to build a team and Littman to keep it within spending limits. But we were a big spending team back then. That's hardly in spite of Littman's obstruction. The real reasons of Polian's departure have been kept under wraps, but I've always been of the opinion that it really started getting personal. Not just job conflict.

 

 

 

He is and I admit and agree with this. But why does he not get credit for when things go well? We had several great runs and a handful of other good ones. We've stunk lately agreed. So he fired them and brought in new people. Almost a complete new football staff, new coaches and new players. But why not the credit for bringing in Nix and rearranging the scouting staff (& firing Modrak), bringing in a well respected Asst GM in Whaley, bringing in an experienced coach with a winning record???

 

Ralphyboy isn't out there catching passes and he's not out there coaching them, he's not out there scouting the youth and he's not running the day to day organization. We've changed practically all of those things and it looks to the better. Why not any credit?

 

Ralph doesn't deserve credit because he's overseen a franchise that has made the playoffs a mere 17 times in its 51 years of existence. Thats only 1 out of every 3 years. And its not so much the pathetic fact that we only qualify 33% of the time, but its moreso than in the other 67%, the team fielded hasn't even had a chance to sniff the playoffs.

 

Ralph deserves criticism because there is simply no committment to winning. Its taken me a while to realize this(since i've been watching since 1987), but the times the Bills have been good are pure happenstance when ralph mistakely stumbles upon a great personnel guy or coach. (Which he eventually butchers)

 

For better or worse, the ownership change can't happen soon enough.

[JohnC]

OTOH, who knows, maybe there is a real power struggle in the front office if Wilson is truly ill?

 

The organization is structured in the way the owner wants it structured with the finance people having an inordinate amount of influence in the football operation. When Polian conflicted with Littman the owner sided with Littman. In the dismal history of the franchise the football side of the operation has gone through a slew of changes. That is contrasted with the stability on the business side with the long term tenure of Littman and Oberdorf.

 

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. There is nothing unusual with having tension between the business and the football side of any NFl franchise, or any pro franchise for that matter. That's simply a byproduct of the nature of the business. But under the ownership of Ralph, especially over the past decade or so, the business side has dominated the franchise to the point that the team hasn't been competitive for a very long time.

[GG]

The organization is structured in the way the owner wants it structured with the finance people having an inordinate amount of influence in the football operation. When Polian conflicted with Littman the owner sided with Littman. In the dismal history of the franchise the football side of the operation has gone through a slew of changes. That is contrasted with the stability on the business side with the long term tenure of Littman and Oberdorf.

 

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. There is nothing unusual with having tension between the business and the football side of any NFl franchise, or any pro franchise for that matter. That's simply a byproduct of the nature of the business. But under the ownership of Ralph, especially over the past decade or so, the business side has dominated the franchise to the point that the team hasn't been competitive for a very long time.

 

I would argue that this wasn't the case 100% of the time. Donahoe had near total control of the operations, and would probably still have it if he didn't bungle the coaches & QB search. Knox initially had control, but then lost it. Polian also had more control than other GMs. His fights with Littman were not what pushed him out. His fights with Wilson's daughter on the other hand ...

[Doc]

Nevertheless, the thing Nix let slip wasn't that Evans wanted out, but to draw into the conversation a long-time Ralph inner circle member. Indeed, Nix is anything but deceptive in his character.

What deception is needed? After it was determined that Evans didn't fit (Gailey criticizing his routes, or lack thereof) and they decided to trade him while he still had value, it was turned-over to Overdork.

Never said that and don't think that is true. Except perhaps after the fact that he knew he was going to be shopped, he said he wanted to be traded to a contender.

I thought it was you because you said you had some inside info. But it sounded like Evans first said he wanted to be traded and the Bills did him a favor by trading him to a contender, because of the respect they had for him.

[Sisyphean Bills]

What deception is needed? After it was determined that Evans didn't fit (Gailey criticizing his routes, or lack thereof) and they decided to trade him while he still had value, it was turned-over to Overdork.

 

I thought it was you because you said you had some inside info. But it sounded like Evans first said he wanted to be traded and the Bills did him a favor by trading him to a contender, because of the respect they had for him.

So, is your position to stick with the Evans demanded the trade position?

 

The deception is patently obvious. Nix talked to JW, and JW came away from that conversation connecting the dots that this trade happened with less than perfect agreement between the front office types. If there was not such disagreement and the trade happened because Lee Evans demanded it or because it was Nix' idea in total, then JW was deceived into explaining the circumstances in an entirely different (and unflattering) light altogether. Not to mention that the motivation for such deception would be to protect the image of a former player and that outweighing perhaps portraying the Bills FO as dysfunctional from a guy well known to be very direct, sometimes even apolitically -- "even the Raiders get calls."

 

It's not a stretch at all to believe the business side of the Bills acted on this. It's happened before. It's far more likely than the "my dog ate my homework" sort of explanations.

[FLFan]

Not from my view, Bill Polian was almost always in the news back then because he was fighting with Littman and the owner for basically everything, stadium improvements, drafting players, signing FA's... the Bills won despite the owner and Littman. Look whats happened to the team since Polian left!

 

Looking at what Bill Polian managed to do with the Bills, Panthers and Colts he is arguably the NFL's most brilliant GM / president in the last 30 years, and RW fired him He also fired John Butler and lost AJ Smith in doing so, 3 of the very best talent evaluators the NFL has ever seen. Because of those firings the Bills went thru over a decade of ineptitude and incompetence.

 

On the bright side...the stadium has been filled year after year and RW made a bunch of money

We will probably never know what happened between Polian and Wilson that led to his departure. Maybe Polian will write a memoir some day but until then it is conjecture. One thing people tend to forget is that Polian was operating in Pre-salary cap days, and the Bills were big spenders at the time to keep their core together. Butler came in continuing that approach with the cap to the point that in the years following his departure, theBills were in salary cap hell. Also, as I recall it, Wilson tried during Butlers contract year to negotiate a new deal and Butler refused to discuss it. It was widely believed at the time that Butler had a handshake deal in place with San Diego, but clearly he wanted to leave. Was that because of Wilson, or because the Bills we in major trouble with the cap and were headed for a downslide because of it. Perhaps he just did not want the challenge of cleaning up the mess he created. As for Smith, Butler took him with him. He was not fired as I recall.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

where has this candor from the press been? as others have mentioned, this s$#t is not new. is there something else bubbling under the surface that has prompted all this open wilson criticism by the press? at any rate, it's long overdue. it almost makes jerry sullivan look mainstream.

Self-indulgent attempt at morbid humor aside, my post #104 above suggests one possible theory, i.e., that the press knows more about Ralph's health than they disclose, that his health has gotten worse, and that the press therefore faces less, or at least shorter term, consequences to the flow of future information about the team if they write something negative now.

 

I freely admit this is just speculation, but in my opinion it's plausible.

 

Upon further reflection, it also occurs to me that, hypothetically, if team management insiders were aware of a downturn in Ralph's health, they might be more willing to talk off-the-record about what's going on behind the curtain. IF Ralph's health has declined recently, some of those people may know about it, even if they aren't talking about it publicly. Those people might figure that they have less to lose by talking to the press now if they are probably going to lose their jobs anyway in a more imminent ownership change (as compared to their expectations when Ralph was just old, but in more robust health).

 

I'm certainly open to other plausible explanations, but if you assume for the sake of argument that the mode of operation behind the curtain has been the same for many years, a non-public decline in Ralph's health seems like one possible reason for the change in the tone of some media reports. It could drive both insider team sources and the press towards more candor.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a team management insider who really wants to win, has been frustrated by recent team decisions, and learns that Ralph won't have the power to fire him/her much longer. Is he/she more willing to talk about his/her frustrations? Such a management insider could be relatively high up the food chain, if you will.

 

Seems like plausible speculation to me, but there certainly could be other reasons for what we're seeing in the media now.

 

Maybe it's as simple as Ralph backing away from heavy-handed control because of his health, and people lower on the totem pole, while loyal to Ralph, not liking their interim master (whoever that is). Or maybe somebody with an abrasive management style pulled an Alexander Haig to fill the power vacuum (press conference after the attempted Reagan assassination - "I am in control here"), and isn't liked inside the organization.

 

Alternatively, from a Machiavellian perspective, the Evans trade makes the Bills less likely to win in the short term. If Nix/Gailey are most harmed by that, ask youself (1) who benefits, and (2) who is most likely to talk to the press about what really happened (even if it is off-the-record)? Seem like pertinent questions, even if I don't have any answers.

 

All speculative, I admit - - but hey, you asked. At least I'm not claiming that my speculation is "fact."

[dave mcbride]

I think that News, D&C and AP have reported on this angle for a while, granted Sullivan has always been more vocal. It's just more voluminous now, and as Gleason points out, Pegula's actions set a new bar for expectations in a city that's not familiar with demanding a winning product.

 

 

If I had to guess, it would be that journalists are probably as tired of the same song & dance as the fans. Journalists are more impartial than the fans. But their job is to report & comment on the events. So if you've been on the Bills beat for the last decade or so, you'd be tired of the doublespeak that's coming from OBD. Probably like Freddie Jackson airing out his grievances wasn't only related to him not starting on Saturday, but a combination of stupifying moves by the administration, the press is calling the team out on the inconsistent message.

 

OTOH, who knows, maybe there is a real power struggle in the front office if Wilson is truly ill?

I wonder if the fact that Wilson and his team will disappear from the scene fairly soon makes reporters and columnists feel freer to say what they feel. Even if they're denied access because of what they write, it won't be for long anymore.

 

PS - Whoops. I just saw ICanSleep's post after I posted this. What he said.

Edited August 25, 2011 by dave mcbride

[birdog1960]

Self-indulgent attempt at morbid humor aside, my post #104 above suggests one possible theory, i.e., that the press knows more about Ralph's health than they disclose, that his health has gotten worse, and that the press therefore faces less, or at least shorter term, consequences to the flow of future information about the team if they write something negative now.

 

I freely admit this is just speculation, but in my opinion it's plausible.

 

Upon further reflection, it also occurs to me that, hypothetically, if team management insiders were aware of a downturn in Ralph's health, they might be more willing to talk off-the-record about what's going on behind the curtain. IF Ralph's health has declined recently, some of those people may know about it, even if they aren't talking about it publicly. Those people might figure that they have less to lose by talking to the press now if they are probably going to lose their jobs anyway in a more imminent ownership change (as compared to their expectations when Ralph was just old, but in more robust health).

 

I'm certainly open to other plausible explanations, but if you assume for the sake of argument that the mode of operation behind the curtain has been the same for many years, a non-public decline in Ralph's health seems like one possible reason for the change in the tone of some media reports. It could drive both insider team sources and the press towards more candor.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a team management insider who really wants to win, has been frustrated by recent team decisions, and learns that Ralph won't have the power to fire him/her much longer. Is he/she more willing to talk about his/her frustrations? Such a management insider could be relatively high up the food chain, if you will.

 

Seems like plausible speculation to me, but there certainly could be other reasons for what we're seeing in the media now.

 

Maybe it's as simple as Ralph backing away from heavy-handed control because of his health, and people lower on the totem pole, while loyal to Ralph, not liking their interim master (whoever that is). Or maybe somebody with an abrasive management style pulled an Alexander Haig to fill the power vacuum (press conference after the attempted Reagan assassination - "I am in control here"), and isn't liked inside the organization.

 

Alternatively, from a Machiavellian perspective, the Evans trade makes the Bills less likely to win in the short term. If Nix/Gailey are most harmed by that, ask youself (1) who benefits, and (2) who is most likely to talk to the press about what really happened (even if it is off-the-record)? Seem like pertinent questions, even if I don't have any answers.

 

All speculative, I admit - - but hey, you asked. At least I'm not claiming that my speculation is "fact."

an actuarial table will tell you wilson's long (and short) term survival odds aren't good. the rest of the theories seem far fetched to me.