AP State of the Bills

[Doc]

I think if you asked Nix or Gailey or any other GM or coach in the league if you could buy a #4 pick for 1.1 million would you do it, their answer would be yes. Or if you asked them, or even asked the devil himself Overdork, would you rather have 7 mil and a #4 pick or 8 mil, they would take the 7 mil and the pick.

 

Therefore, paying the bonus IMO makes sense.

 

Of course, I didn't at all want to trade Lee Evans or cut him whatsoever, but that is a different argument.

Why (just) cut Evans? There are players with bigger remaining salaries. For that matter, why spend more money on Barnett, Thigpen, and Smith?

[Mark Long Beach]

A generation of mediocrity in a system designed for parity is a clear demonstration of organizational ineptitude and turmoil. There are a lot of ways to run a business. The best way to judge any system or organization is from the outcome.

 

 

 

You might not find it troubling that Nix wasn't doing the negotiating but I do. If the trade was assigned to Whaley then that would be understandable. But having your contract person handling the deal doesn't give me confidence on the way the football side of the operating is functioning.

 

Oberdorf and Littman have been organizational mainstays for a very long time. Their cumulative record speaks for itself. There is a big difference between working out the contracts and finances within the organization and working out a trade deal.

 

Our record has been crappy to average for 10 years+, I can't argue ineptitude of the past, it's recorded.

 

Now we've also had high turnover because of it. A parade of GMs, Coaches & Players over that same span. Only a few people have remained for a significant period of time. Do we blame Moorman because our record has sucked? Maybe it's Fred Jackson's or Terrance McGee's fault? Of course it's not their fault and we don't blame them, even though they and other players performance is what's truly being evaluated each year.

 

So Coaches get blamed. GM's get blamed. But we've replaced them and restructured our football org and our scouting staff.

 

So Littman & Overdorf get blamed. Really? So they're the problem... Well then it must be their fault when we were going to Superbowl after Superbowl four years running. (Littman had same job, Overdorf had Director title now has VP title)

 

So then it's Ralph's fault.

 

Well I agree. But only so far as he's the owner and thus ultimately responsible for everything. Now in his time he's had good GM's and bad ones. I believe that he's got a good one now and has a good management team and is working on a good team of players. My fingers are crossed that he does. A good GM (& their orgs) field better teams over the long haul as individual years can vary considerably. They need to be stable to get there. Stability is important but only to a degree, as we all know the example of Matt Millen's stability of suckitude.

 

Wishing for Ralph to leave doesn't fix things. Art Modell moved the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore. He won a Superbowl as Raven (ick) and have been a good team since. Good thing they ran Modell out of town huh.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Mark Long Beach

[NoSaint]

The following is a quote from the jw associate press release:

"Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration."

 

You don't find it odd that Oberdorf handled the trade with the Ravens? If Nix did allow Oberdorf to work out the deal then don't you find that that in iself is very odd? In all organizations, except for the zany organizations,such as Buffalo and Oakland, it's the GMs' responsibility to work out the deals, not the money guys.

 

Do you think that jw got the story wrong? I don't because it has happened before. An example of that was with the Troy Vincent cut.

 

 

i think its a jump to say "because overdorf overruled him and nix wanted the guy but wasnt allowed to keep him."

 

 

perhaps it was "because buddy gave him parameters of what he would be willing to accept and had to go do something else ranging from scouting work, to family commitments that day"

 

 

i do feel terribly uncomfortable that overdorf is still with this team. it seems his name is at the heart of a lot of unsettling, hard to explain decisions. he has outlasted gm after gm, coach after coach, yet seems to be right in there with the dysfunction.

Edited August 24, 2011 by NoSaint

[Kelly the Dog]

Why (just) cut Evans? There are players with bigger remaining salaries. For that matter, why spend more money on Barnett, Thigpen, and Smith?

You asked a question and I answered it. I don't think they should have cut or traded Evans but they saved 7 million this year and next, minus the paltry amount they will keep Naaman Roosevelt for in his place.

 

IMO, Overdork was looking for ways to save money on the roster like he always does, and we had a few young WR that the coaches liked. Based on some things I know, some things I heard and somethings surmised, I think Overdork brought the decision to Nix and Gailey who may not have liked it but went along with it.

 

I don't tthink they are trying to tank the season at all. I expect them to sign an OL from the last cuts if one fits what they want out of their OL, which is size and versatility.

 

Overdork will use a lot of what they saved on Lee and probably others to sign Kyle, and maybe Fitz, and probably Stevie, as well as signing guys like Morrison today. And maybe even Fred.

 

The league rules are that 99% of the cap has to be paid league wide, but that money isn't due until the end of this regular season. A lot of teams, including the Bills, will be re-signing their own players mid season to get up to that threshold. They already started with Kyle because they know they want him. Fitz, I would imagine, they want to see how he plays at the starter to decide short or long term extension.

 

Don't worry, more cuts and possible trades are coming.

[NoSaint]

You asked a question and I answered it. I don't think they should have cut or traded Evans but they saved 7 million this year and next, minus the paltry amount they will keep Naaman Roosevelt for in his place.

 

IMO, Overdork was looking for ways to save money on the roster like he always does, and we had a few young WR that the coaches liked. Based on some things I know, some things I heard and somethings surmised, I think Overdork brought the decision to Nix and Gailey who may not have liked it but went along with it.

 

I don't tthink they are trying to tank the season at all. I expect them to sign an OL from the last cuts if one fits what they want out of their OL, which is size and versatility.

 

Overdork will use a lot of what they saved on Lee and probably others to sign Kyle, and maybe Fitz, and probably Stevie, as well as signing guys like Morrison today. And maybe even Fred.

 

The league rules are that 99% of the cap has to be paid league wide, but that money isn't due until the end of this regular season. A lot of teams, including the Bills, will be re-signing their own players mid season to get up to that threshold. They already started with Kyle because they know they want him. Fitz, I would imagine, they want to see how he plays at the starter to decide short or long term extension.

 

Don't worry, more cuts and possible trades are coming.

 

 

pretty much agree on all fronts.

 

 

look for kw to get money before the season hopefully

 

stevie will depend how he handles the #1 role

fred will likely depend on early reps from spiller (probably a part of why they want to see him early)

fitz will depend on the first month or so two (look for bye week talks, likely with both him and stevie)

[Sisyphean Bills]

pretty much agree on all fronts.

 

look for kw to get money before the season hopefully

 

stevie will depend how he handles the #1 role

fred will likely depend on early reps from spiller (probably a part of why they want to see him early)

fitz will depend on the first month or so two (look for bye week talks, likely with both him and stevie)

When The System leaves no cash on hand for the business, one has to free up money by cutting expenses first.

[Doc]

You asked a question and I answered it. I don't think they should have cut or traded Evans but they saved 7 million this year and next, minus the paltry amount they will keep Naaman Roosevelt for in his place.

 

IMO, Overdork was looking for ways to save money on the roster like he always does, and we had a few young WR that the coaches liked. Based on some things I know, some things I heard and somethings surmised, I think Overdork brought the decision to Nix and Gailey who may not have liked it but went along with it.

 

I don't tthink they are trying to tank the season at all. I expect them to sign an OL from the last cuts if one fits what they want out of their OL, which is size and versatility.

 

Overdork will use a lot of what they saved on Lee and probably others to sign Kyle, and maybe Fitz, and probably Stevie, as well as signing guys like Morrison today. And maybe even Fred.

 

The league rules are that 99% of the cap has to be paid league wide, but that money isn't due until the end of this regular season. A lot of teams, including the Bills, will be re-signing their own players mid season to get up to that threshold. They already started with Kyle because they know they want him. Fitz, I would imagine, they want to see how he plays at the starter to decide short or long term extension.

 

Don't worry, more cuts and possible trades are coming.

What do you know? Because I respectfully will have to agree to disagree with you on why they traded him.

[JohnC]

i think its a jump to say "because overdorf overruled him and nix wanted the guy but wasnt allowed to keep him."

 

There is no plausable good reason for Nix not to be the one mostly involved in the trade of an established starter and Oberdorf be the most involved. Evans contract was established. So Oberdorf was not reworking a contract deal or maneuvering the cap numbers, except downward for a team with a large cap reserve. The bottom line is that the finance man trumped the GM, or at least the appearance of a GM.

 

perhaps it was "because buddy gave him parameters of what he would be willing to accept and had to go do something else ranging from scouting work, to family commitments that day"

 

Your possible explanations are very far fetched. Making trades is one of the primary functions of the GM, or at least for the normally run franchises.

 

 

i do feel terribly uncomfortable that overdorf is still with this team. it seems his name is at the heart of a lot of unsettling, hard to explain decisions. he has outlasted gm after gm, coach after coach, yet seems to be right in there with the dysfunction.

 

While there has been a lot of turnover on the football side of the operation there has been little turnover on the business side of the operation with the entrenchment of Littman and Oberdorf on the staff. It's obvious that the owner is very satisfied with the way the business is being run and how it is structured.

Edited August 25, 2011 by JohnC

[Chandler#81]

ERBF, I hope you are calmer now than when you posted this.

 

We are all a part of the Bills experience. You may consider me a "basher," but I raised 3 girls as Bills fans, 450 miles away from RWS. I actually think that it helped tham in life in terms of being loyal and to persevere.

This is a board that is founded and frequented by a lot of very smart people (myself not included lol). Speaking for myself, I care a lot about the Bills, the people I have met and interacted with from TBD, and the board itself. I sense that you feel the same way.

Some people are going to gripe. Some are going to think everything is great. Then, there is everything in between.

The bottom line imo is that we have great dialogue here. I have been bitching about blocking since the late 90's. Others have their own particular complaints.

With all due respect, my suggestion to you is to not let other Bills fans bother you. They are suffering, but they love this team as much as you do.

 

Bravo, Bill!

[JohnC]

So Littman & Overdorf get blamed. Really? So they're the problem... Well then it must be their fault when we were going to Superbowl after Superbowl four years running. (Littman had same job, Overdorf had Director title now has VP title)

 

Polian was dispatched because of his contentious battles with Littman over spending. Littman had little to do with the Polian's SB years. The Bills won despite Littman's obstruction not because of it.

 

So then it's Ralph's fault.

 

Absolutely. He is the one person most responsbile for the hires and departures. The organization is structured the way he wants it structured. The franchise's record is absolutely a reflection of it's owner. Unless you don't believe in accountability no one is more responsible for the state of the organization.

 

Well I agree. But only so far as he's the owner and thus ultimately responsible for everything. Now in his time he's had good GM's and bad ones.

 

The owner has done all the hiring and firing of the GMs. How is he not responsible for the serial turnover of staff?

[NoSaint]

There is no plausable good reason for Nix not to be the one mostly involved in the trade of an established starter and Oberdorf be the most involved. Evans contract was established. So Oberdorf was not reworking a contract deal or maneuvering the cap numbers, except downward for a team with a large cap reserve. The bottom line is that the finance man trumped the GM, or at least the appearance of a GM.

 

 

 

Your possible explanations are very far fetched. Making trades is one of the primary functions of the GM, or at least for the normally run franchises.

 

 

 

 

While there has been a lot of turnover on the football side of the operation there has been little turnover on the business side of the operation with the entrenchment of Littman and Oberdorf on the staff. It's obvious that the owner is very satisfied with the way the business is being run and how it is structured.

 

 

 

Ah - from your extensive involvement in nfl trades.

 

you do realize that if he gives him a strong framework for what he expects, it is completely reasonable to let someone who has been with the team 20+ years in a high level leadership role, spanning 2 different times that nix has worked for the franchise to field this call. maybe overdorf has a strong working relationship with the ravens - who knows - maybe he was even involved in the mcgahee trade, so it made sense to let him be in a leadership role on the negotiations.

 

i just dont understand why its more reasonable to say that clearly overdorf is a dark leader that is totally usurping power from the head coach, and gm, causing turmoil in the locker room, and out to get us - instead of hes a guy that has been in high level negotiation positions for 20+ years and was trusted to handle this the right way.

 

whether a contract or a pick, its all basic negotiations, and he has the resume to handle it here.

 

 

im not saying yours is impossible but that this, the more reasonable explanation, isnt that far of a jump.

Edited August 25, 2011 by NoSaint

[playboy reese 2.0]

We should all pick a game and just boycott.Send a message to the Bills that we wont support them making money and not caring about winning.And I dont wanna hear that the Bills will leave Buffalo crap.Ralph uses that propaganda to scare fans.The Bills arent going anywhere.Los angeles doesnt want the Bills and Ralph knows it.The main reason the second largest city in America doesnt have a team is because they rarely will even support a winner.It would take this organization at least 5 yrs to put a winner on the field and thats still a maybe.If the Bills moved to Toronto it wouldnt be bad,and we might just see our team improve from the bottom up.

[K-9]

We should all pick a game and just boycott.Send a message to the Bills that we wont support them making money and not caring about winning.And I dont wanna hear that the Bills will leave Buffalo crap.Ralph uses that propaganda to scare fans.The Bills arent going anywhere.Los angeles doesnt want the Bills and Ralph knows it.The main reason the second largest city in America doesnt have a team is because they rarely will even support a winner.It would take this organization at least 5 yrs to put a winner on the field and thats still a maybe.If the Bills moved to Toronto it wouldnt be bad,and we might just see our team improve from the bottom up.

 

Yeah, that'll show 'em.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Chandler#81]

Spin, hell. You're comment is "pie in the sky." I don't know about the other realists on this board, but I am not convinced that the team has more NFL talent than in recent years. What evidence points to that? Drafting Dareus is potentially the only big upgrade at a position that has happened in two drafts. The jury is still out on whether the total of lost talent helping other teams has been replaced by better players. Certainly, the Bills have not acquired a lot of players via free agency and most of those they did take have not panned out. (See offensive line acquisitions.) I hope Merryman and Darnet contribute more than their predecessors, but they have to play in games before we will know. You're the king of spin.

 

As we're all too well aware around here, 'talent' is in the eye of the beholder. Here's some professional analysis:

 

We have a Pro Bowl Free Safety

We have a Pro Bowl OLB

We have a Pro Bowl DT

We have Marcell Darius -averaging 1 sack per game in his NFL career to date

We have a Pro Bowl Punter

We have an 80.6% , 1086pt career Place Kicker

 

We have 1st Round picks starting @ CB, DT, LB, C, RB

 

Then we have Barnett, McGee, Levitre, F. Jax, Stevie J, Brad Smith.

 

Spin that negatively

[3rdand12]

its.. Dareus, Marcell. please Sir. : )

[Sisyphean Bills]

Ah - from your extensive involvement in nfl trades.

 

you do realize that if he gives him a strong framework for what he expects, it is completely reasonable to let someone who has been with the team 20+ years in a high level leadership role, spanning 2 different times that nix has worked for the franchise to field this call. maybe overdorf has a strong working relationship with the ravens - who knows - maybe he was even involved in the mcgahee trade, so it made sense to let him be in a leadership role on the negotiations.

 

i just dont understand why its more reasonable to say that clearly overdorf is a dark leader that is totally usurping power from the head coach, and gm, causing turmoil in the locker room, and out to get us - instead of hes a guy that has been in high level negotiation positions for 20+ years and was trusted to handle this the right way.

 

whether a contract or a pick, its all basic negotiations, and he has the resume to handle it here.

 

 

im not saying yours is impossible but that this, the more reasonable explanation, isnt that far of a jump.

Yours is not the more reasonable explanation from the context of what John Wawrow actually wrote. And, I don't think JW wrote what he wrote casually, without thought, or to deliberately mislead his readers. From the context of the article, JW wrote:

 

A few days later, Nix attempted to put the trade behind him by telling The Associated Press that there were a lot of things that went into the deal that he couldn't elaborate on publicly.

 

Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration.

So Nix was trying to distance himself from the situation and [edit: it was] divulged that Jim Overdorf handles trade talks within the structure of the Buffalo Bills front office. Why even say "there are things I can't go on record about" if you actually made the call on the trade and could articulate all the logical, football reasons that led you to make such a decision, if it were yours? Frankly, you simply wouldn't. Nix tried to paint a smile on, but ended up revealing it wasn't his call, just as other football people in his position over the last 50 years have done as well.

[Doc]

Yours is not the more reasonable explanation from the context of what John Wawrow actually wrote. And, I don't think JW wrote what he wrote casually, without thought, or to deliberately mislead his readers. From the context of the article, JW wrote:

 

A few days later, Nix attempted to put the trade behind him by telling The Associated Press that there were a lot of things that went into the deal that he couldn't elaborate on publicly.

 

Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration.

 

So Nix was trying to distance himself from the situation and divulged that Jim Overdorf handles trade talks within the structure of the Buffalo Bills front office. Why even say "there are things I can't go on record about" if you actually made the call on the trade and could articulate all the logical, football reasons that led you to make such a decision, if it were yours? Frankly, you simply wouldn't. Nix tried to paint a smile on, but ended up revealing it wasn't his call, just as other football people in his position over the last 50 years have done as well.

Someone (Kelly?) said that Evans came to the Bills first and asked to be traded. And the Bills kept it hush-hush since Evans was well-respected by the Bills/Bills fans. That could easily be the "things I can't go on record about."

[Sisyphean Bills]

Someone (Kelly?) said that Evans came to the Bills first and asked to be traded. And the Bills kept it hush-hush since Evans was well-respected by the Bills/Bills fans. That could easily be the "things I can't go on record about."

Nevertheless, the thing Nix let slip wasn't that Evans wanted out, but to draw into the conversation a long-time Ralph inner circle member. Indeed, Nix is anything but deceptive in his character.

[HalftimeAdjustment]

Yours is not the more reasonable explanation from the context of what John Wawrow actually wrote. And, I don't think JW wrote what he wrote casually, without thought, or to deliberately mislead his readers. From the context of the article, JW wrote:

 

A few days later, Nix attempted to put the trade behind him by telling The Associated Press that there were a lot of things that went into the deal that he couldn't elaborate on publicly.

 

Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration.

So Nix was trying to distance himself from the situation and divulged that Jim Overdorf handles trade talks within the structure of the Buffalo Bills front office. Why even say "there are things I can't go on record about" if you actually made the call on the trade and could articulate all the logical, football reasons that led you to make such a decision, if it were yours? Frankly, you simply wouldn't. Nix tried to paint a smile on, but ended up revealing it wasn't his call, just as other football people in his position over the last 50 years have done as well.

 

My opinion: I agree that it was not written casually. That's why we should be careful in interpreting this. The first sentence states clearly that Nix told him something. The second sentence states that Nix did not handle trade talks, Overdorf did. It does not say that JW got that second sentence from Nix. This could also mean that JW obtained the information about Overdorf from another, known-to-be-accurate source. If that is the case and that source does not want to be identified, it would be a logical course of action for the reporter to decline to comment further on the story. That way he can leave it ambiguous as to whether this additional information came from Nix. Only Nix, JW, and the other source (if one exists) know for sure. If Overdorf asks Nix about this article, Nix can deny he said anything and blame it on another source - for example someone in the Ravens office. That does not mean Nix is not the source of this info about Overdorf. It simply means the article has left it for the reader to interpret. I believe that this is intentional. I am not saying Nix was not the source of the "didn't handle trade talks" info, but I consider that a possibility. I do not expect JW to comment on this idle speculation as it is against his interests to do so.

[Sisyphean Bills]

My opinion: I agree that it was not written casually. That's why we should be careful in interpreting this. The first sentence states clearly that Nix told him something. The second sentence states that Nix did not handle trade talks, Overdorf did. It does not say that JW got that second sentence from Nix. This could also mean that JW obtained the information about Overdorf from another, known-to-be-accurate source. If that is the case and that source does not want to be identified, it would be a logical course of action for the reporter to decline to comment further on the story. That way he can leave it ambiguous as to whether this additional information came from Nix. Only Nix, JW, and the other source (if one exists) know for sure. If Overdorf asks Nix about this article, Nix can deny he said anything and blame it on another source - for example someone in the Ravens office. That does not mean Nix is not the source of this info about Overdorf. It simply means the article has left it for the reader to interpret. I believe that this is intentional. I am not saying Nix was not the source of the "didn't handle trade talks" info, but I consider that a possibility. I do not expect JW to comment on this idle speculation as it is against his interests to do so.

Yes, excellent point. He wrote that Nix tried to distance himself from the situation and that Overdorf does the trades, but did not say who the source of the latter information was. It could even have been multiple sources. Thanks for making that clear.

 

Still, that doesn't alter my argument that the way this is written does not lead one to reason that Nix decided to trade Evans and then left Overdorf to handle all the details. However it was that JW learned of Overdorf's involvement, the juxtaposition of these paragraphs is not purely accidental.

 

Furthermore, as I wrote above, this sort of thing has been leaked in the past from others who worked within the organization and that have commented the football operation has ridden in the rumble seat of the organization...