AP State of the Bills

[JohnC]

It's too bad there isn't a bridge nearby. It'd be nice to have a good football conversation instead of the same junk parroted over and over again. Wow, I've never heard that Ralph is cheap before. The world is a better place now that someone else has said it. Oh, or maybe it's the same people saying it again. and again. It's a tired rant.

 

 

So JW's article reminds us that we've not been a good team in a decade. Yup.

JW tells us that we've burned through executives and coaches who've been unsuccessful. Yup

JW tells us that we're cycling through our players at a relatively quick pace. Yup.

 

Where's the surprise here? I'm an optimist but I can't deny these things. We haven't done well because we haven't had a good combination of coaching, administration and recruiting. If the people hired to run the job can't do it you move on and try to find someone who can. Therefore we fire GM's, Coaches and or Players who can't do the job. We SHOULD be cycling through players looking for ones that are better. Who can argue with this??

 

In the past 10 years we've drafted ONE star player, Kyle Williams in the 5th round. I'm hoping that some of our new players will add to that total (such as Darius, Stevie, etc). The rest have been a combination of some good players and a bunch of okay players and a number of turkeys. I put Lee Evans as one of those pretty good players and he has been for 7 years.

 

JW has insinuated that there was a disagreement in our front office over the trade of Lee Evans.

 

Whoop-de-Dmn-doo.

 

Even if it's true. No executive committee should be unanimous on everything. If they are they're nothing but a bunch of yes men.

 

This was not a trade of one of our building blocks. Therefore he's expendable just like most of the players on our team. The move is justifiable. We have a lot of promising looking youth that _could_ be building blocks. Finding one of those is more important right now than keeping one who definitely isn't. Because we have so many possibilities, Lee becomes more expendable.

 

Look, I like Lee Evans and wish him well. But he's on the downside of his career and hasn't been especially productive for us lately. He only had 600 yards last year as a #1 WR. Our current Head Coach complained that he's not versatile enough for his offense. Since he's not a building block, not especially productive, not a good fit for our offense and only has two years left on contract and maybe prime career, I have no problem with moving on (and rumored that he wanted to traded to a contender). It's my opinion that we can find someone to replace that performance out of our youth, even if it's a little bit less this year (the heart of the disagreement IMO).

 

You are missing the point. The central issue isn't the decision regarding the trade of Evans; you can make a valid case for trading/not trading. The real and disturbing issue is that the person who works on the business side of the operation made a football decision over the denuded GM. When the person who structures the contracts makes personnel decisions over-riding or bypassing the GM then that is a sign of an organization in turmoil. It is a stupid way to do business in the NFL.

[Doc]

So Overdork traded Evans for monetary reasons, despite him just getting $1.1M in bonuses? Okay.

[K-9]

So Overdork traded Evans for monetary reasons, despite him just getting $1.1M in bonuses? Okay.

 

That was my reasoning too, Doc. But someone said that bonuses were transferable and, since the Bills had to pay Evans within five days of the new league year (Aug. 9th), that teams deliberately waited for the Bills to pay that before making the trade. So the reasoning is that the Bills spent 1.5 to save 2.5 in salary.

 

Still, it just doesn't seem like the way to go about a pure cost cutting measure.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[UConn James]

It's too bad there isn't a bridge nearby. It'd be nice to have a good football conversation instead of the same junk parroted over and over again. Wow, I've never heard that Ralph is cheap before. The world is a better place now that someone else has said it. Oh, or maybe it's the same people saying it again. and again. It's a tired rant.

 

So, because it's been said before, it no longer applies or is untrue?

 

Fans like you who are willing to let Ralph sweep his dookies under the rug and tolerate his cheap-bastard approach are part of the problem.

[Kelly the Dog]

So Overdork traded Evans for monetary reasons, despite him just getting $1.1M in bonuses? Okay.

Teams know his salary as well, and when he is due to get bonuses. It's public knowledge for the league. The Bills would have had to cut him to avoid the payment, and then a team like the Ravens could get him and sign him to as much as they want and not have to give up a 4th round pick. The Bills weren't going to release him outright, but they still saved about $7 million over the last two years counting two salaries and one bonus. The Ravens simply waited until after the bonus was paid.

 

I'm not sure about it, but it also could have been a guaranteed bonus. That's another possibility.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog

[EastRochBillsfan]

Honestly, someone should start a class action lawsuit against Wilson, the Bills, and the NFL for consumer fraud. I'm dead serious. These are deceptive trade practices - impliedly (and explicitly) representing that the Bills have been and will be built to compete, yet doing everything possible behind the scenes to thwart that. Would fans have bought season tickets over the last decade if they new that the so-called "rebuilding" efforts were in fact a sham, and that the team was in truth being positioned for a sale and possible relocation? Would they have bought merchandise if they knew that their favorite players would be let go for peanuts when it was time to pay them? Would fans blindly support the League if they knew that it would steer star-caliber players away from Buffalo due to the unstable ownership and coaching situation? I think not.

 

Frankly, we've been sold a bill of goods, based upon outright lies. It's fraud. It's not incompetence, it's fraud. There is no other word for it. Businesses have been sued for far less than this. Someone should hold these fraudsters accountable in court.

 

give me a freakin break. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to watch the games or go to the games or spend any money on the Bills. If you don't like what you see, and this goes for ALL you negative Bills bashing fans that do nothing but B word, moan and complain that nothing they do is right and the owner sucks and is cheap. DO NOT watch the games. Just go the F away. please. you guys disgust me. A bunch of miserable people my God.

 

0-16

 

First pick of the draft, which we'll trade away so we don't have to pay for the pick.

 

yea ok. we just signed the 3rd pick. like we wouldn't sign the first pick to save money. BS!

 

 

You are missing the point. The central issue isn't the decision regarding the trade of Evans; you can make a valid case for trading/not trading. The real and disturbing issue is that the person who works on the business side of the operation made a football decision over the denuded GM. When the person who structures the contracts makes personnel decisions over-riding or bypassing the GM then that is a sign of an organization in turmoil. It is a stupid way to do business in the NFL.

 

You have no proof of this but you speak like it is fact. Like others have said, maybe Nix decided to let him go and handed the trading part over to Overdorf. Certainly sounds reasonable to me. So please don't state as fact what you don't know the truth of.

[Coach Tuesday]

give me a freakin break. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to watch the games or go to the games or spend any money on the Bills. If you don't like what you see, and this goes for ALL you negative Bills bashing fans that do nothing but B word, moan and complain that nothing they do is right and the owner sucks and is cheap. DO NOT watch the games. Just go the F away. please. you guys disgust me. A bunch of miserable people my God.

 

Sorry, but YOU'RE the problem, not me. If it weren't for the self-titled, and self-entitled "true fans" like yourself who seem willing to buy whatever bill of goods Ralph sells you, perhaps there would be real change.

[Doc]

That was my reasoning too, Doc. But someone said that bonuses were transferable and, since the Bills had to pay Evans within five days of the new league year (Aug. 9th), that teams deliberately waited for the Bills to pay that before making the trade. So the reasoning is that the Bills spent 1.5 to save 2.5 in salary.

 

Still, it just doesn't seem like the way to go about a pure cost cutting measure.

 

 

Teams know his salary as well, and when he is due to get bonuses. It's public knowledge for the league. The Bills would have had to cut him to avoid the payment, and then a team like the Ravens could get him and sign him to as much as they want and not have to give up a 4th round pick. The Bills weren't going to release him outright, but they still saved about $7 million over the last two years counting two salaries and one bonus. The Ravens simply waited until after the bonus was paid.

 

I'm not sure about it, but it also could have been a guaranteed bonus. That's another possibility.

Paying the bonus and then trading him makes little sense. If it were a salary dump, they'd have cut him and not cared about a 4th rounder, and saved that $1.1M as well. And given that Nix and Gailey were never huge supporters of Evans', and actually criticized him publicly, it makes far more sense to think that Nix and Gailey didn't think he fit into their plans. While more than a few sites have suggested Evans is a one-trick pony who has lost a step.

[Kelly the Dog]

Paying the bonus and then trading him makes little sense. If it were a salary dump, they'd have cut him and not cared about a 4th rounder, and saved that $1.1M as well. And given that Nix and Gailey were never huge supporters of Evans', and actually criticized him publicly, it makes far more sense to think that Nix and Gailey didn't think he fit into their plans. While more than a few sites have suggested Evans is a one-trick pony who has lost a step.

I think if you asked Nix or Gailey or any other GM or coach in the league if you could buy a #4 pick for 1.1 million would you do it, their answer would be yes. Or if you asked them, or even asked the devil himself Overdork, would you rather have 7 mil and a #4 pick or 8 mil, they would take the 7 mil and the pick.

 

Therefore, paying the bonus IMO makes sense.

 

Of course, I didn't at all want to trade Lee Evans or cut him whatsoever, but that is a different argument.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog

[JohnC]

You have no proof of this but you speak like it is fact. Like others have said, maybe Nix decided to let him go and handed the trading part over to Overdorf. Certainly sounds reasonable to me. So please don't state as fact what you don't know the truth of.

 

The following is a quote from the jw associate press release:

"Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration."

 

You don't find it odd that Oberdorf handled the trade with the Ravens? If Nix did allow Oberdorf to work out the deal then don't you find that that in iself is very odd? In all organizations, except for the zany organizations,such as Buffalo and Oakland, it's the GMs' responsibility to work out the deals, not the money guys.

 

Do you think that jw got the story wrong? I don't because it has happened before. An example of that was with the Troy Vincent cut.

Edited August 24, 2011 by JohnC

[Mark Long Beach]

You are missing the point. The central issue isn't the decision regarding the trade of Evans; you can make a valid case for trading/not trading. The real and disturbing issue is that the person who works on the business side of the operation made a football decision over the denuded GM. When the person who structures the contracts makes personnel decisions over-riding or bypassing the GM then that is a sign of an organization in turmoil. It is a stupid way to do business in the NFL.

 

The only signs of turmoil is an indirect claim of one by an article written by JW. An article that is for the most part reporting on the teams failures for the last decade (of which there are many). The implication that a disagreement exists in the front office has people scurrying for their tin-hats. The Bills ARE a business and of course 'business side' people ARE involved in decisions. This is true for all teams in the NFL.

 

Nix is the guy in charge, not the guy doing the heavy lifting. That's true for all people in leadership positions of large organizations. Having Overdorf doing the negotiations does not mean that Nix has been usurped.

 

You don't find it odd that Oberdorf handled the trade with the Ravens? If Nix did allow Oberdorf to work out the deal then don't you find that that in iself is very odd? In all organizations, except for the zany organizations,such as Buffalo and Oakland, it's the GMs' responsibility to work out the deals, not the money guys.

 

The GM's job is to make the final decisions. Some GM's are good horse traders and so take an active role in trading. Our GM is a good scout, i bet he takes a more active role in scouting than most GMs.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Mark Long Beach

[thewildrabbit]

Sorry, but YOU'RE the problem, not me. If it weren't for the self-titled, and self-entitled "true fans" like yourself who seem willing to buy whatever bill of goods Ralph sells you, perhaps there would be real change.

 

here here

[JohnC]

The only signs of turmoil is an indirect claim of one by an article written by JW.

 

A generation of mediocrity in a system designed for parity is a clear demonstration of organizational ineptitude and turmoil. There are a lot of ways to run a business. The best way to judge any system or organization is from the outcome.

 

An article that is for the most part reporting on the teams failures for the last decade (of which there are many). The implication that a disagreement exists in the front office has people scurrying for their tin-hats. The Bills ARE a business and of course 'business side' people ARE involved in decisions. This is true for all teams in the NFL.

 

Nix is the guy in charge, not the guy doing the heavy lifting. That's true for all people in leadership positions of large organizations. Having Overdorf doing the negotiations does not mean that Nix has been usurped.

 

 

 

The GM's job is to make the final decisions. Some GM's are good horse traders and so take an active role in trading. Our GM is a good scout, i bet he takes a more active role in scouting than most GMs.

 

You might not find it troubling that Nix wasn't doing the negotiating but I do. If the trade was assigned to Whaley then that would be understandable. But having your contract person handling the deal doesn't give me confidence on the way the football side of the operating is functioning.

 

Oberdorf and Littman have been organizational mainstays for a very long time. Their cumulative record speaks for itself. There is a big difference between working out the contracts and finances within the organization and working out a trade deal.

[K-9]

Sorry, but YOU'RE the problem, not me. If it weren't for the self-titled, and self-entitled "true fans" like yourself who seem willing to buy whatever bill of goods Ralph sells you, perhaps there would be real change.

 

Coach, you've expressed you stance on RW and the Bills a number of times and I respect that.

 

But, honestly, what do you think would happen if nobody went to the games, nobody bought merchandise, etc.? How do you see RW and the bean counters reacting to this?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Coach Tuesday]

Coach, you've expressed you stance on RW and the Bills a number of times and I respect that.

 

But, honestly, what do you think would happen if nobody went to the games, nobody bought merchandise, etc.? How do you see RW and the bean counters reacting to this?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I think if they did those things in conjunction with (politely) letting the team and/or the League know WHY they were taking those steps, there would be a response. Believe it or not, I've written emails to the Bills before about my reason for not renewing season tickets, and I've found them somewhat responsive. If it happened en masse, they'd have to take it seriously.

[Lurker]

Fans like you who are willing to let Ralph sweep his dookies under the rug and tolerate his cheap-bastard approach are part of the problem.

What the hell does that mean?

 

The only 'people' that matter in terms of tolerating the mediocrity at OBD are the ticket buyers. Everyone else is a bystander with no skin in the game, unless you count the pennies per taxpayer Erie County residents shell out for stadium upkeep.

 

I suppose you could make a case that non-ticket holders' sending money Ralph's way via NFL Properties have an iron in the fire, but that's a stretch.

 

Bottom line: people that "consume" a product they don't pay for get to tolerate exactly whatever they're given, whether it's decades of bad football, lousy recorded music, moronic television, half-assed sports radio or Internet message boards...

Edited August 24, 2011 by Lurker

[Bill from NYC]

give me a freakin break. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to watch the games or go to the games or spend any money on the Bills. If you don't like what you see, and this goes for ALL you negative Bills bashing fans that do nothing but B word, moan and complain that nothing they do is right and the owner sucks and is cheap. DO NOT watch the games. Just go the F away. please. you guys disgust me. A bunch of miserable people my God.

 

ERBF, I hope you are calmer now than when you posted this.

 

We are all a part of the Bills experience. You may consider me a "basher," but I raised 3 girls as Bills fans, 450 miles away from RWS. I actually think that it helped tham in life in terms of being loyal and to persevere.

This is a board that is founded and frequented by a lot of very smart people (myself not included lol). Speaking for myself, I care a lot about the Bills, the people I have met and interacted with from TBD, and the board itself. I sense that you feel the same way.

Some people are going to gripe. Some are going to think everything is great. Then, there is everything in between.

The bottom line imo is that we have great dialogue here. I have been bitching about blocking since the late 90's. Others have their own particular complaints.

With all due respect, my suggestion to you is to not let other Bills fans bother you. They are suffering, but they love this team as much as you do.

[GaryPinC]

The only signs of turmoil is an indirect claim of one by an article written by JW. An article that is for the most part reporting on the teams failures for the last decade (of which there are many). The implication that a disagreement exists in the front office has people scurrying for their tin-hats. The Bills ARE a business and of course 'business side' people ARE involved in decisions. This is true for all teams in the NFL.

 

Nix is the guy in charge, not the guy doing the heavy lifting. That's true for all people in leadership positions of large organizations. Having Overdorf doing the negotiations does not mean that Nix has been usurped.

 

 

 

John Wawrow has always seemed to me to be very good about reporting what he has direct quotes or proof to report. I think he also tries to fit his writing style to the reality of the situation when he has no direct proof that would allow him to include it in his article. My impression from his article was that Buddy was not on board with the Lee Evans trade.

 

I think Ralph Wilson is getting pretty close to the end of the road, so it wouldn't be surprising that the bean counters are cleaning house. Be interesting to see if Buddy resigns at some point this year.

[benderbender]

ERBF, I hope you are calmer now than when you posted this.

 

We are all a part of the Bills experience. You may consider me a "basher," but I raised 3 girls as Bills fans, 450 miles away from RWS. I actually think that it helped tham in life in terms of being loyal and to persevere.

This is a board that is founded and frequented by a lot of very smart people (myself not included lol). Speaking for myself, I care a lot about the Bills, the people I have met and interacted with from TBD, and the board itself. I sense that you feel the same way.

Some people are going to gripe. Some are going to think everything is great. Then, there is everything in between.

The bottom line imo is that we have great dialogue here. I have been bitching about blocking since the late 90's. Others have their own particular complaints.

With all due respect, my suggestion to you is to not let other Bills fans bother you. They are suffering, but they love this team as much as you do.

 

Good to know that we can count people like you among the Bills faithful

[birdog1960]

 

 

I suppose you could make a case that non-ticket holders' sending money Ralph's way via NFL Properties have an iron in the fire, but that's a stretch.

 

i think your analysis is myopic. per easterbrook's espn article, each team receives $125 mil in revenues yearly from tv contracts. this dwarfs stadium revenue - lets say 500000 seats at $60 =30 mil or roughly 1/4 of tv revenue. so tv networks and ultimately potential beer, soft drink, car and truck etc buyers produce most of the revenue. to the nfl, it would follow that a persons consumer demographics are of greater import than their ticket buying habits (especially if ticket sales decrease as it appears they will for this year). if you are in a group that buys lots of stuff, you have a voice. and if a team or teams are weakening the general appeal of the nfl to tv viewers, they are a liability.