AP State of the Bills

[plenzmd1]

Best post regarding this topic. It is really disconcerting that so many of you are being held hostage by the Buffalo Bills -- not allowed to pick a new team to root for. "Ralph is cheap", "Bills Suck," "Stop Buying Tickets" -- I really don't get this at all -- if you truly feel that the Bills are the worst run franchise with no hope -- then why subject yourself to the misery and find a new team. You guys are sucking the life out of the fun of rooting for the Bills. And speaking of sucking -- that's what I thought of JW's article. With all due respect JW, I know you get paid to sell your stories (and really what helps sell articles better than a good controversy or accentuating weaknesses to a fault). I mean, for a NFL team preview, there was not a single mention of Kyle Williams - the Bills Pro Bowl NT/DT. This guy finally seems to be getting recognition and respect around the league's media circuit but is noticeably absent in the one guy's story who actually covers the team most closely. Really? No word on Eric Wood - probably one of the best young interior lineman in the league and among the future players to watch for. What about the return of Parrish or the emergence of a player like David Nelson (another example of un-drafted players the Bills seemingly find every year). Instead the article tries to fan the "Bills are inept flame" and focuses on the Lee Evans trade - determined to get to the bottom of why the Bills traded a 30-yr old receiver who only had two 1,000 yard seasons in his career and is only known as a vertical-line threat that doesn't like to go over the middle. As for JW's assertion that Nix deferred to Overdorf for the entire handling of the trade -- I respectfully submit that he made this leap out of context. Another leap that JW made was:

 

"A few days later, Nix attempted to put the trade behind him by telling The Associated Press that there were a lot of things that went into the deal that he couldn't elaborate on publicly.

Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration.

What's unmistakable is how Evans' departure shed light on much of what's gone wrong."

 

He then proceeds to rattle off a bunch of players let go -- that have yet to prove Buffalo wrong in their decision to get rid of them, yet the release of these unproductive players is apparently the root of what has gone wrong.

 

Dude, i don't think anyone is aghast at the Evans trade per se,opinions vary on whether it was good or bad, but the fact that the GM did not orchestrate the trade, but it was the guy in charge of the salary cap(re how much is Ralph shelling out, )is making the trade....that my friend is huge news..and is what has people upset, including long time Ralph apolgists like me.

 

I have been on this board for 8 years..never once made a disparaging remark about Ralph..but this has got my ire up

[Delete This Account]

jw, I need to offer a tepid apology and retraction. When the Evans transaction occurred I stated that I felt that it was simply a Nix personnel move. In a not so cryptic way you suggested that it wasn't necessarily so. I stand corrected.

no worries.

 

jw

[Gordio]

I think it's now irrefutable that our "HOF" owner is indeed cheap. The good news is, he's as old as Methuselah, so he'll either die or be forced due to infirmity to sell soon. Then either the team gets a real owner and wins for us, or it moves. Either way, it's a WIN, IMO. Tiiiiiiiiiime, it's on my side. Yes it is!

 

 

youtube.com/watch?v=rIE2GAqnFGw

 

I agree with this. I used to dread the thought of a change in ownership thinking that would be the time when the team moves but it is time for this situation to play itself out whether good or bad. Wilson is not in this to win anymore(not sure if he ever was) but this penny pinching has gone to a new alltime low. He is going to feel it in the stands this year. The opener will sellout, the NE game will sell out(with probably 20k patriot fans) & the Philly game will sellout because it of Mike Vick. The jets game will probably have a good crowd also given all the NYC kids that go to UB buying the tickets. After that, I doubt unless they win they will get 50K people at any of the December games.

[Kelly the Dog]

first of all I AM SORRY. I was having a fit of insomnia and that was way too harsh. But to say that the bills are better off settling for the ravens 4th than the 3rd from the jets or n.e. is something I disagree with, for the reason I stated. You can't try to get in the beancounter's heads and justify it, because there is no strategic benefit to it all. yuo CANNOT spin that move to make any sense at all.

 

If we were a legit playoff contender, that logic might make a shred of sense. But, in the position we're in now...? It is just complete idiocy to turn down a 3rd and accept a 4th.

 

Unless you really are counting every last bean and thinking about next year's payroll. And give the history here, you can't dismiss that possibility. In fact, you have to assume it until proven otherwise.

I absolutely think you can and should trade for a #4 to the Ravens instead of a #3 to the Jets or the Patriots for Lee Evans. That is the trade I would make. I am not giving teams in my division one of the only things they are lacking that could put them over the top. The chances of a #3 or #4 being a good player are probably pretty close. Nix and Gailey probably believe, and they should, that if a few breaks go our way he can compete with these teams. You may not believe that one bit but they sure as hell do, and they better.

 

My reasoning is SOLELY based on this particular player, Evans, who I think is still very good and valuable, and this particular time, to those particular teams, because a veteran WR is something they needed that could put them over the top and be a difference maker in the games you play against them and the standings for the next couple years of the deal. I am not at all advocating that we should always accept a smaller return rather than a larger one from someone in our division. Each trade must be looked at individually considering numerous factors.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog

[Billsrhody]

In all seriousness..

 

I think as a fan base we should all start writing letters to Terry Pegula begging him to buy the team when Ralph dies / decides to sell..

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Honestly, someone should start a class action lawsuit against Wilson, the Bills, and the NFL for consumer fraud. I'm dead serious. These are deceptive trade practices - impliedly (and explicitly) representing that the Bills have been and will be built to compete, yet doing everything possible behind the scenes to thwart that. Would fans have bought season tickets over the last decade if they new that the so-called "rebuilding" efforts were in fact a sham, and that the team was in truth being positioned for a sale and possible relocation? Would they have bought merchandise if they knew that their favorite players would be let go for peanuts when it was time to pay them? Would fans blindly support the League if they knew that it would steer star-caliber players away from Buffalo due to the unstable ownership and coaching situation? I think not.

 

Frankly, we've been sold a bill of goods, based upon outright lies. It's fraud. It's not incompetence, it's fraud. There is no other word for it. Businesses have been sued for far less than this. Someone should hold these fraudsters accountable in court.

Not something I've researched, but just from memory of things I've sometimes read in the general course of following NFL football, lawsuits by fans against the NFL typically aren't very successful. Here's one example that I remembered enough about to quickly find.

 

The "Spygate" case described in the link below is obviously based on a different fact pattern, but as the excerpt reproduced below shows, it involved some legal theories that are somewhat similar to what you've suggested. I haven't tried to look up the outcome of the Third Circuit appeal.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1247009

 

"What we’re arguing is that professional sports is a business that has to respect the law just like any other business, and that teams that participate can’t commit fraud on ticketholders," Mayer said Tuesday. "The Patriots had altered the rules of the game and were playing with advance knowledge of opponents’ plays."

 

Mayer and co-counsel Bruce Afran also will argue that the Patriots violated federal racketeering laws as well as New Jersey’s consumer protection laws by concealing material facts — the existence of the videotaping — from paying customers.

 

The suit calculated that because customers paid $61.6 million to watch eight "fraudulent" games, they’re entitled to triple that amount — or $184.8 million — in compensation under racketeering and consumer fraud laws.

 

Mayer and Afran are appealing the dismissal of the case in March 2009 by U.S. District Judge Garrett Brown Jr. in Trenton. Shep Goldfein, an attorney representing the NFL in the matter, referred to Brown’s ruling in which the judge wrote that a ticket seller only contracts to provide entry to a ticketholder "to view whatever event transpires."

 

Just thought you might find the link of interest.

[eball]

In all seriousness..

 

I think as a fan base we should all start writing letters to Terry Pegula begging him to buy the team when Ralph dies / decides to sell..

+1

[Coach Tuesday]

Just thought you might find the link of interest.

 

Absolutely, thanks for posting. That would be the biggest hurdle with a lawsuit like this - the defense would argue that fans pay for entertainment, not some guaranteed outcome of success. You'd need to get lucky with the judge you end up with, but I can see ways of pleading the claim that might help it stick. You'd need to allege concrete statements of intention by the Bills (press releases, marketing materials, etc.) that promise or impliedly promise an intention to invest in a competitive product. And you'd have to say that fans acted in specific reliance on those promises, i.e., they bought tickets to see a competitive team, not just for the sake of entertainment. You could also perhaps sue under an implied warranty theory - just like an engine, a football team is a product marketed with an implied fitness for its particular purpose, i.e., trying to win football games. The Bills breach that implied warranty of fitness by knowingly making decisions designed to undercut the product.

[Gordio]

Running backs have considerably more mileage on them then wide receivers from taking more pounding.

Plus I could be wrong but my belief it is easier to pick up a servicable running back than it is a wide receiver.

For a apples to apples comparison you need to pick a running back, not a WR.

 

 

Kinda morbid for a "ray of sunshine" post, no?

 

 

No you wouldn't. You would look out for your wife and family making sure they were well taken care of after you passed just like Mr. Wilson is doing. At least I would hope so.

 

 

Sorry but spending an extra $15-$20 mill in payroll for the next few years is not going to make a dent in the future aspirations of his kids & his wife. They are still going to get $200-$300 million when this is all said & done. I am sure they could eake out a living somehow on that just fine. What would be the right thing to do is give something back to this community in the form of a competitive football team that has supported his wrinkled old ass for the last 60 years.

[mattsox]

In a series of depressing developments, this is possibly the most depressing. If true, not giving the GM and the coach the ability or the authority to improve this team or keep players is horrible. I am always amused at the "we are doomed" posts, but maybe this is where we are.

 

The State of upper management on this team is a joke. It seems more like Moe, Larry and Curly running this Operation. With Shemp and Joe on the Front lines. Not really sure I believe much of what I hear from anyone anymore coming out of OBD

[MarkyMannn]

I've been an executive in corporations that are getting ready for sale, more than once.

 

At some point the ownership decides that the ultimate goal is the sale of the business (team) because they know they will not be competitive in the future. This may be because new competition has far more resources, or it may just be that the current ownership (of the Bills) has determined that they are not willing to invest the big bucks it will take to have a champion. So for a period of months or years, the business starts tightening its belt by cutting expenses (therefore improving profitability). When the business goes up for sale, interested buyers see a financial profile that looks very healthy, making it look like they can offer more money for the organization.

 

100% right about what is going on. I've seen this too. Squeeze down costs to boost profitability to max out the value of the business when up for sale. Ralph and gang know he only has little time left, so increase the club's sale price. Now winning can boost the value too, like the Cowboys. But it is too much work to win, and easier to shed salaries and lose

[BillsfaninFl]

But this is just the start of Year 2 in the current rebuild and even the most ardent Doomsayers here have to acknowledge we have more NFL talent than in recent years.

 

Spin? Whatever. Nothing to see here..

 

Spin, hell. You're comment is "pie in the sky." I don't know about the other realists on this board, but I am not convinced that the team has more NFL talent than in recent years. What evidence points to that? Drafting Dareus is potentially the only big upgrade at a position that has happened in two drafts. The jury is still out on whether the total of lost talent helping other teams has been replaced by better players. Certainly, the Bills have not acquired a lot of players via free agency and most of those they did take have not panned out. (See offensive line acquisitions.) I hope Merryman and Darnet contribute more than their predecessors, but they have to play in games before we will know. You're the king of spin.

[BillnutinHouston]

Pardon my ignorance, but I keep reading this thread trying to find what I must be missing. I still can't find it. Here's the part of the article that people are apparently reading as proof that Nix isn't making the football decisions:

 

"Nix has provided varying explanations on the Evans trade. Initially, he described the move as one that will allow Buffalo's younger receivers to develop. A few days later, Nix attempted to put the trade behind him by telling The Associated Press that there were a lot of things that went into the deal that he couldn't elaborate on publicly. Nix didn't handle trade talks, leaving that job with Jim Overdorf, the team's salary cap specialist and senior vice president of football administration. What's unmistakable is how Evans' departure shed light on much of what's gone wrong."

 

Here are my questions:

 

1) Can someone point out for me the language stating that Nix didn't make the Evans trade decision? (And, I'm differentiating here between MAKING THE DECISION and HANDLING TRADE TALKS.)

 

2) Is it possible that Nix made the primary decision to get rid of Evans, then left the details to Overdorf?

 

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, is that "less bad" than Nix having no authority?

 

I'm not necessarily saying Nix has full power. My point is simply, the article as written was NOT conclusive on the issue of Nix's level of responsibility.

Edited August 24, 2011 by BillnutinHouston

[8-8 Forever?]

I just got done reading that article. It's clear to me now that with Overdorf's involvement and Nix's exclusion in the Evans deal, the Bills are in total cost cutting and savings mode. They will most likely do this until they have to meet a cap floor in 2013. In the meantime I fear things are going to get extremely fugly, especially in the locker room. I think we're seeing signs of that already.

 

If Nix and Gailey have any self-respect they'll offer up their resignations. Why would they want to work in their current capacities when their hands are obviously so tied?

 

GO BILLS!!!

They don't. The Bills were their only ticket back into the big dance. They ain't walkin' away from that, as they will have nowhere to go that is anything comparable to what they are doing now. If Ralph wants them to wear plaid on Wednesdays, I bet they do it (for 5 minutes). Same goes for Stroud, Florence, Kelsay, and a bunch of others for whom the Bills are or were their only lifeline to the NFL. Seen the movie "Bull Durham"? The Bills ARE the Durham Bulls.

 

Spin, hell. You're comment is "pie in the sky." I don't know about the other realists on this board, but I am not convinced that the team has more NFL talent than in recent years. What evidence points to that? Drafting Dareus is potentially the only big upgrade at a position that has happened in two drafts. The jury is still out on whether the total of lost talent helping other teams has been replaced by better players. Certainly, the Bills have not acquired a lot of players via free agency and most of those they did take have not panned out. (See offensive line acquisitions.) I hope Merryman and Darnet contribute more than their predecessors, but they have to play in games before we will know. You're the king of spin.

The team talent level is about the same as last year. More experience, esp. with the schemes, etc., but about the same talent. Talent and Experience are not the same thing. Which means 5 or 6 wins and missing out on the best can't miss QB prospect in 15+ years. Sucks to be a Bills fan.

 

In all seriousness..

 

I think as a fan base we should all start writing letters to Terry Pegula begging him to buy the team when Ralph dies / decides to sell..

Why, so he can give the Bills a handout? Lose his rear on the Bills just as he will with the Sabres? Bring in $150m per year and spend $200m? That is a lame dream from lame thinking. If the market cannot support an NFL team, then the team needs to move to where it can, not pray for a handout from some rich guy... WNY is such a charity case.. makes me ill..

 

Dude, i don't think anyone is aghast at the Evans trade per se,opinions vary on whether it was good or bad, but the fact that the GM did not orchestrate the trade, but it was the guy in charge of the salary cap(re how much is Ralph shelling out, )is making the trade....that my friend is huge news..and is what has people upset, including long time Ralph apolgists like me.

 

I have been on this board for 8 years..never once made a disparaging remark about Ralph..but this has got my ire up

 

Ralph likes Evans and as much as said it when Evans played ball and waited patiently for his new deal and got it...

 

I speculate that Evans went to Ralph and asked to be traded to a contender before his career is over ... and Ralph obliged him... that makes sense to me.. The same loyal guy that kept the Bills in WNY because the fans were loyal to the team also met the request of a loyal employee who made a reasonable request.. the fact that all that was offered was a 4th is not Ralph or Evans fault..

 

Don't praise Ralph for his loyalty to WNY and then diss him for honoring the legitimate and, frankly, understandable request of probably his most loyal employee, Lee Evans

[Dorkington]

The fact that Ralph, on his death bed, isn't putting all his money into seeing a winning team happen just proves he doesn't give two ***** about football.

[Mark Long Beach]

It's too bad there isn't a bridge nearby. It'd be nice to have a good football conversation instead of the same junk parroted over and over again. Wow, I've never heard that Ralph is cheap before. The world is a better place now that someone else has said it. Oh, or maybe it's the same people saying it again. and again. It's a tired rant.

 

 

So JW's article reminds us that we've not been a good team in a decade. Yup.

JW tells us that we've burned through executives and coaches who've been unsuccessful. Yup

JW tells us that we're cycling through our players at a relatively quick pace. Yup.

 

Where's the surprise here? I'm an optimist but I can't deny these things. We haven't done well because we haven't had a good combination of coaching, administration and recruiting. If the people hired to run the job can't do it you move on and try to find someone who can. Therefore we fire GM's, Coaches and or Players who can't do the job. We SHOULD be cycling through players looking for ones that are better. Who can argue with this??

 

In the past 10 years we've drafted ONE star player, Kyle Williams in the 5th round. I'm hoping that some of our new players will add to that total (such as Darius, Stevie, etc). The rest have been a combination of some good players and a bunch of okay players and a number of turkeys. I put Lee Evans as one of those pretty good players and he has been for 7 years.

 

JW has insinuated that there was a disagreement in our front office over the trade of Lee Evans.

 

Whoop-de-Dmn-doo.

 

Even if it's true. No executive committee should be unanimous on everything. If they are they're nothing but a bunch of yes men.

 

This was not a trade of one of our building blocks. Therefore he's expendable just like most of the players on our team. The move is justifiable. We have a lot of promising looking youth that _could_ be building blocks. Finding one of those is more important right now than keeping one who definitely isn't. Because we have so many possibilities, Lee becomes more expendable.

 

Look, I like Lee Evans and wish him well. But he's on the downside of his career and hasn't been especially productive for us lately. He only had 600 yards last year as a #1 WR. Our current Head Coach complained that he's not versatile enough for his offense. Since he's not a building block, not especially productive, not a good fit for our offense and only has two years left on contract and maybe prime career, I have no problem with moving on (and rumored that he wanted to traded to a contender). It's my opinion that we can find someone to replace that performance out of our youth, even if it's a little bit less this year (the heart of the disagreement IMO).

Edited August 24, 2011 by Mark Long Beach

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

you left one big option out: how bout because he thought that it was the right thing to do. a few people are still motivated by this.

Entirely possible. Reading tea leaves is an inexact art. OTOH, it's easier to do the right thing when it involves fewer, or at least less severe, possible adverse consequnces - - no?

Edited August 24, 2011 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

[JohnC]

The State of upper management on this team is a joke. It seems more like Moe, Larry and Curly running this Operation. With Shemp and Joe on the Front lines. Not really sure I believe much of what I hear from anyone anymore coming out of OBD

 

The original Three Stooges should be jumping out of their graves with your insulting comparison. The original Stooges, Curly, Larry and Moe, were talented and very funny. The comedians running the Bills' organization are simply lame. The original three stooges took pride in their work. The Buffalo Three Stooges: Ralph, Littman and Oberdorf are simply pedestrian clowns.

[CodeMonkey]

In all seriousness..

 

I think as a fan base we should all start writing letters to Terry Pegula begging him to buy the team when Ralph dies / decides to sell..

You can write all the letters you want. But spending 100 million on a team you like in a sport that you love is one thing. Spending 800 million on a team you may or may not care about in a sport you are lukewarm about is another.

 

Lord knows the Bills could use a new owner with ties to Buffalo, but I have a hard time seeing this working out.

[K-9]

The original Three Stooges should be jumping out of their graves with your insulting comparison. The original Stooges, Curly, Larry and Moe, were talented and very funny. The comedians running the Bills' organization are simply lame. The original three stooges took pride in their work. The Buffalo Three Stooges: Ralph, Littman and Oberdorf are simply pedestrian clowns.

 

So the Bills are being run by the Three Dane Cooks?

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited August 24, 2011 by K-9