Jackson upset is not good

[outsidethebox]

Says me, westside. Did Levy suddenly forget how to coach when our offensive line became terrible? Our offensive and defensive lines have been awful for over a decade. No coach can scheme around that.

 

Bad teams don't win. Nix has made more commitment to the lines than anyone since Polian. In a year or two, Gailey will have is in contention for playoffs.

Not trying to argue Adam, I don't see any attempt to improve our OL. Nix and Gailey knew this was a weak link on the team, yet they did nothing. Aren't you tired of the Bills signing other teams castoffs and trying to sell them like a hidden gem?

[Adam]

Not trying to argue Adam, I don't see any attempt to improve our OL. Nix and Gailey knew this was a weak link on the team, yet they did nothing. Aren't you tired of the Bills signing other teams castoffs and trying to sell them like a hidden gem?

I agree. The past couple offseasons have been about putting a defense together. Once that is done, the focus will switch to the offense.

 

If Troupe improves this season, him, Williams and Dareus give is a strong foundatoo, with some good depth behind them.

 

Then we can supplement that while moving to the offense. It worked for green bay.

[outsidethebox]

I agree. The past couple offseasons have been about putting a defense together. Once that is done, the focus will switch to the offense.

 

If Troupe improves this season, him, Williams and Dareus give is a strong foundatoo, with some good depth behind them.

 

Then we can supplement that while moving to the offense. It worked for green bay.

I agree. I think they did a pretty good job with the DL. If I am going to criticize them, I have to give them credit.

 

I may come across as grumpy. Sorry about that Adam. I am just tired of the last 12 years of losing. Combined with that pitiful performance on Saturday.

[Adam]

I agree. I think they did a pretty good job with the DL. If I am going to criticize them, I have to give them credit.

 

I may come across as grumpy. Sorry about that Adam. I am just tired of the last 12 years of losing. Combined with that pitiful performance on Saturday.

We all are tired of losing, but you have to be careful about changing things prematurely. You could make a mistake and put the blame in the wrong place. That can set you back years

[outsidethebox]

We all are tired of losing, but you have to be careful about changing things prematurely. You could make a mistake and put the blame in the wrong place. That can set you back years

I think we all know that first hand. HA HA! Just show me the baby dammit! LOL!

[EasternOHBillsFan]

The coaching isn't and hasn't been the problem. Which is why changing coaches hasn't led to winning.

 

+1

[Cash]

Now a new report that the coaches talked to Freddie and assure him he was the #1 running back.....when does the season start already?

Wow, our coaching staff appears to have defused a potentially problematic situation through openness and communication. I'm surprised and pleased. Benching Jackson was a mistake, but how you handle your mistakes is usually a lot more important than the mistakes themselves. It's nice to see some good news for once.

[akm0404]

You know you are a delusional Bills fan when you catch yourself thinking that Fred Jackson is some kind of elite NFL running back.

 

He is at best average, and honestly just a lower-third NFL running back talent. Fans love him because he came from nothing (small school, NFL Europe) and made good. Blue collar, good guy.

 

But seriously - every week in the NFL you see eye-popping performances from elite running backs. People describe Fred Jackson with such high praise as "consistent" and "falls forward" and "picks up blitzes well", but you'll never hear someone describe him as an "electrifying touchdown machine".

 

The team stinks, and Jackson may well be in a nursing home before they are competitive. Giving the young players more prominent roles on the team is what just about everyone here begs for 24/7, but folks get butthurt when it is their beloved Fred Jackson.

 

I hope he plays really well this year, but honestly his performance is almost entirely irrelevant to the future of the team. Might as well roll the dice a bit and try to strike it rich rather than bore everyone to death as per our usual modus operandi.

[Rob's House]

You know you are a delusional Bills fan when you catch yourself thinking that Fred Jackson is some kind of elite NFL running back.

 

He is at best average, and honestly just a lower-third NFL running back talent. Fans love him because he came from nothing (small school, NFL Europe) and made good. Blue collar, good guy.

 

But seriously - every week in the NFL you see eye-popping performances from elite running backs. People describe Fred Jackson with such high praise as "consistent" and "falls forward" and "picks up blitzes well", but you'll never hear someone describe him as an "electrifying touchdown machine".

 

The team stinks, and Jackson may well be in a nursing home before they are competitive. Giving the young players more prominent roles on the team is what just about everyone here begs for 24/7, but folks get butthurt when it is their beloved Fred Jackson.

 

I hope he plays really well this year, but honestly his performance is almost entirely irrelevant to the future of the team. Might as well roll the dice a bit and try to strike it rich rather than bore everyone to death as per our usual modus operandi.

Bernard Hopkins isn't known for electrifying knockouts but he's one of the best that ever did it.

[Bufluv]

You know you are a delusional Bills fan when you catch yourself thinking that Fred Jackson is some kind of elite NFL running back.

 

He is at best average, and honestly just a lower-third NFL running back talent. Fans love him because he came from nothing (small school, NFL Europe) and made good. Blue collar, good guy.

 

But seriously - every week in the NFL you see eye-popping performances from elite running backs. People describe Fred Jackson with such high praise as "consistent" and "falls forward" and "picks up blitzes well", but you'll never hear someone describe him as an "electrifying touchdown machine".

 

The team stinks, and Jackson may well be in a nursing home before they are competitive. Giving the young players more prominent roles on the team is what just about everyone here begs for 24/7, but folks get butthurt when it is their beloved Fred Jackson.

 

I hope he plays really well this year, but honestly his performance is almost entirely irrelevant to the future of the team. Might as well roll the dice a bit and try to strike it rich rather than bore everyone to death as per our usual modus operandi.

 

inconsistent, falling (running) backwards and missing blitz assignments IS what the "future" of the team is showing right now, and also showed last year

[NewEra]

You know you are a delusional Bills fan when you catch yourself thinking that Fred Jackson is some kind of elite NFL running back.

 

He is at best average, and honestly just a lower-third NFL running back talent. Fans love him because he came from nothing (small school, NFL Europe) and made good. Blue collar, good guy.

 

But seriously - every week in the NFL you see eye-popping performances from elite running backs. People describe Fred Jackson with such high praise as "consistent" and "falls forward" and "picks up blitzes well", but you'll never hear someone describe him as an "electrifying touchdown machine".

 

The team stinks, and Jackson may well be in a nursing home before they are competitive. Giving the young players more prominent roles on the team is what just about everyone here begs for 24/7, but folks get butthurt when it is their beloved Fred Jackson.

 

I hope he plays really well this year, but honestly his performance is almost entirely irrelevant to the future of the team. Might as well roll the dice a bit and try to strike it rich rather than bore everyone to death as per our usual modus operandi.

I don't like him because he's an udfa from a small school. I like him because of what he does on the football field. He's a good running back (not average) that runs behind one of worst OLs in league history. He makes people miss at a higher rate than any back in the league....which constitutes him being a good RB....not average.

[akm0404]

inconsistent, falling (running) backwards and missing blitz assignments IS what the "future" of the team is showing right now, and also showed last year

 

I'm not saying Spiller is any good - he'll probably be a bust. I'm merely commenting on fans' general over-valuation of Jackson and the theory that developing younger players with "potential" on bad teams is sound.

[Kelly the Dog]

You know you are a delusional Bills fan when you catch yourself thinking that Fred Jackson is some kind of elite NFL running back.

 

He is at best average, and honestly just a lower-third NFL running back talent. Fans love him because he came from nothing (small school, NFL Europe) and made good. Blue collar, good guy.

 

But seriously - every week in the NFL you see eye-popping performances from elite running backs. People describe Fred Jackson with such high praise as "consistent" and "falls forward" and "picks up blitzes well", but you'll never hear someone describe him as an "electrifying touchdown machine".

 

The team stinks, and Jackson may well be in a nursing home before they are competitive. Giving the young players more prominent roles on the team is what just about everyone here begs for 24/7, but folks get butthurt when it is their beloved Fred Jackson.

 

I hope he plays really well this year, but honestly his performance is almost entirely irrelevant to the future of the team. Might as well roll the dice a bit and try to strike it rich rather than bore everyone to death as per our usual modus operandi.

Of all NFL running backs, young and old, starter and back-up, on good and bad teams, Fred Jackson is tied for 18th in career rushing average, an extremely good 4.4 career average. Four of the players, Fred Taylor, Corell Buckhalter, Brian Westbrook, and Derrick Ward don't really play much, so he's more like 14th of all RBs.Considering that he probably had worse blocking and passing attacks than any player above him, I would say that is a lot better than average.

 

And that doesn't count the fact that he is a good receiver, blocker and KR. Very few RBs in the league can do all those things well.

 

Players with the same or worse career averages? LT. Clinton Portis. Larry Johnson. Steven Jackson. All four were superstars. Ronnie Brown. Ryan Grant. McGahee. Rashard Mendenhall. Thomas Jones. Reggie Bush... the list goes on.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rush_yds_per_att_active.htm

[Adam]

I'm not saying Spiller is any good - he'll probably be a bust. I'm merely commenting on fans' general over-valuation of Jackson and the theory that developing younger players with "potential" on bad teams is sound.

Spiller was asked to do a lot in a complicated offense ad a rookie. He will get better

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Against Denver, Spiller received the ball on four of Buffalo's first six plays from scrimmage and finished with six carries for 10 yards and two catches for 11 yards. Jackson had four carries for 34 yards and added 13 yards on two catches. In Chicago game it was C.J 2 carries for 3 yards and 2 receptions for 16. While Jackson got 3 carries for 18 yds. I think its a no brainer myself.

Yep. These two players are not even near the same level. Spiller is so far below that it makes Gailey's declaration that he thinks of them (paraphrasing) "both as starters with Freddy slightly ahead" to be a real kick in the gut.

 

Freddy will be fine. As KTFABG notes, he's going to bring 100% effort each and every week. The truth of the matter is, this offense needs to have big plays out of the running and short passing game, and Spiller "should" provide more opportunities for that. Granted, Freddy did have that great long screen against Pittsburgh last season, but for the most part he's a grinder. That's great, but I'm sure what Gailey is thinking is that he needs explosiveness out there as well.

 

And, as has been the case for the past three years, steady Freddy will be there waiting.

Sometimes as a fan, you love a player so much that you view things a bit differently. As I empathize with Freddy (and I think it's obvious from his videotaped interview) that he fells disrespected AND taken for granted. While I think he probably will be fine, I don't like the idea that we can take him for granted. Disagree with the "explosiveness argument, btw… more on that below.

 

Jackson needs to shut up and play football. Every player has to prove himself year after year, and complaining about that fact is childish. The mere fact that he was still the 3rd down back with Spiller starting speaks volumes to me. They know what Fred can do and I am sure they are not looking to lose him to injury before the opener like last year. If Fred can't see that Spiller needs the preseason exposure far more than he does then he is blind.

I don't know if you understand the culture of a football team. There are grave consequences when a respected, veteran player is slighted by the coaching staff. It is very bad for morale. I couldn't disagree more with your take.

 

Here's what Gailey better understand; Fred Jackson is the heart and sole of this team, if he looses Jackson, he loses his team, and the fans!

I think this one hits a lot closer to the mark.

 

I hear you, but that doesn't mean Jackson shouldn't be guaranteed. It's been stated over & over in this thread, but Fred Jackson continues to get results week in & week out. If there's anyone on this team that should be playing, it's him.

Not only should Fred be playing… he's one of a handful of players on this roster who shouldn't have to worry about being a starter. It's absolutely ludicrous that Spiller is being given the "son of the owner" treatment.

 

The reason why Jackson's status is under question is because of his lack of the big play potential. Jackson would be great to have as a starter if you had a HOF QB like Manning or Brady, but the Bills do not have that. CJ has that big play potential and I have no problem with them exploring his ability to handle the starters role. If he can't handle blocking blitzing LBs (he still can't) then it a mute point because he'll be sitting the bench.

Gailey said about Demetrius Bell (paraphrasing) that "he doesn't have to be great or he doesn't have to be perfect… he just needs to be consistent." I'm here to say that you cannot build an offense around a running back who loses yardage on half his carries an breaks an "explosive gain" on every 5th or 6th carry. Freddy is one of the most consistent runners in the league. He always exceeds the NFL average yards per carry. IMO, this would be an offensive coordinators dream. Hand off, get 4.5 yards… 2nd down and less than 6… 75% chance of converting.

 

The explosiveness argument holds no water for me. Some of the greatest runners in NFL history were workhorses.

 

I think everyone needs to take a step back from all of the "who started over whom" stuff that's going on right now. I firmly believe that--by the time week 1 of the regular season rolls around--Jackson will be the primary ball carrier, Levitre will be starting at one of the guard spots, Reggie Torbor will be replaced as a nickel linebacker, and overall the best 11 guys will play on each side of the ball.

 

Until that time, let's all try to keep our sanity and not over-react.

 

I love how we've turned what could be as little as Freddie having a bad mood and cj getting some first team reps with him into "fred is furious, probably about to get traded and chan/nix don't know what they are doing handing the job over trying to justify their huge obvious bust of a pick. Our franchise is doooooomed."

Disagree Bandit and NoSaint. I'd like to think that all is well but this situation on top of Evans and Levitre is disconcerting and disheartening. Certain things that happen around a team are indicators of the team's psyche and I don't think it takes a psychiatrist to sense that something is amiss. I hope you're right and I'm wrong but that's not my gut feeling.

 

No worries. FReddie is at his best with a chip on his shoulder. If he gets mad it'll bump up his YPC a half yard...

That's actually an insult to Freddy. This is a guy who has gained 2500 yards FROM SCRIMMAGE over the last two years. He played Division III college football. Freddy always plays hard and I don't see him playing any harder. If anything I could see this situation sapping his will.

 

If Fred was a first round pick, most of this board would be running him out of town for his 1,000 yard seasons, much like was done to Henry, McGahee, and Lynch.

 

Fred's a good back. But the reason he gets so much love from here is mainly because he's a UDFA.

Could not disagree more, Ramius. It's like the silly argument above about Kyle Williams being a 5th rounder. This is not about the relativity of perception. Most astute football fans would watch Freddy Jackson and say "that is an excellent running back."

 

I really disagree with you.

 

 

[Bufluv]

I'm not saying Spiller is any good - he'll probably be a bust. I'm merely commenting on fans' general over-valuation of Jackson and the theory that developing younger players with "potential" on bad teams is sound.

 

I sort of understand what you are saying and am not trying to be unreasonable... but how are fans "over-valuing" Freddy when he is out-performing the players with "potential"?

Edited August 24, 2011 by Bufluv

[akm0404]

Of all NFL running backs, young and old, starter and back-up, on good and bad teams, Fred Jackson is tied for 18th in career rushing average, an extremely good 4.4 career average. Four of the players, Fred Taylor, Corell Buckhalter, Brian Westbrook, and Derrick Ward don't really play much, so he's more like 14th of all RBs.Considering that he probably had worse blocking and passing attacks than any player above him, I would say that is a lot better than average.

 

And that doesn't count the fact that he is a good receiver, blocker and KR. Very few RBs in the league can do all those things well.

 

Players with the same or worse career averages? LT. Clinton Portis. Larry Johnson. Steven Jackson. All four were superstars. Ronnie Brown. Ryan Grant. McGahee. Rashard Mendenhall. Thomas Jones. Reggie Bush... the list goes on.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rush_yds_per_att_active.htm

 

Evaluating running backs solely on career yards per carry average is pretty dubious, and throwing out some folks that don't jive with your conclusion is questionable as well. Even so, you only get 14th best, which is pretty darn close to average, and nowhere near superstar.

 

That list also doesn't include some other players that I can think of off the top of my head, i.e. LaGarrette Blount (5.0ypc career average), LeSean McCoy (4.7ypc career average), etc., and pretty much every team would take them over Fred Jackson and I'm sure there are more.

 

Just saying. Even in the best case of stat jiggering, we can get him up to maybe middle of the road. Eww.

 

I sort of understand what you are saying and am not trying to be unreasonable... but how are fans "over-valuing" Freddy when he is out-performing the players with "potential"?

 

Again, I'm not comparing Spiller and Jackson. Jackson might be 100x better than Spiller. Spiller probably stinks. But giving playing time to untested young players rather than declining veterans is a sound decision on a team that is not in a mode to compete for at least a couple years.

[Mike in Syracuse]

So it appears after all this noise this is about the money. Jackson is pissed because he wants more money and if he's not the #1 guy there's no way that's going to happen. This isn't about respect, it's about getting paid!

Edited August 24, 2011 by Mike in Syracuse

[Kelly the Dog]

Evaluating running backs solely on career yards per carry average is pretty dubious, and throwing out some folks that don't jive with your conclusion is questionable as well. Even so, you only get 14th best, which is pretty darn close to average, and nowhere near superstar.

 

That list also doesn't include some other players that I can think of off the top of my head, i.e. LaGarrette Blount (5.0ypc career average), LeSean McCoy (4.7ypc career average), etc., and pretty much every team would take them over Fred Jackson and I'm sure there are more.

 

Just saying. Even in the best case of stat jiggering, we can get him up to maybe middle of the road. Eww.

Anyone who has ever watched football, IMO, watching the Bills every game of the last several years, should be downright shocked and appalled that Fred Jackson has averaged 4.4 yards per carry for his career. It's downright remarkable.

 

I'm not at all evaluating running backs solely on career average, but that's probably as good a stat as you can get (not that stats are the end all whatsoever).

 

The two you mentioned wouldn't have enough carries to qualify for that career list.

 

I also don't think that anyone has called him a superstar, or anything close to it.

 

I watch a lot of pro football and have for 40 years. Fred Jackson gets more out of nothing than almost anyone in the league right now. He also catches very well, and he blocks very well. He doesn't fumble a lot. He never loafs. He rarely gets knocked backwards. He almost always falls forward when he. He never gives up till the whistle blows.

[Bufluv]

Evaluating running backs solely on career yards per carry average is pretty dubious, and throwing out some folks that don't jive with your conclusion is questionable as well. Even so, you only get 14th best, which is pretty darn close to average, and nowhere near superstar.

 

That list also doesn't include some other players that I can think of off the top of my head, i.e. LaGarrette Blount (5.0ypc career average), LeSean McCoy (4.7ypc career average), etc., and pretty much every team would take them over Fred Jackson and I'm sure there are more.

 

Just saying. Even in the best case of stat jiggering, we can get him up to maybe middle of the road. Eww.

 

 

 

Again, I'm not comparing Spiller and Jackson. Jackson might be 100x better than Spiller. Spiller probably stinks. But giving playing time to untested young players rather than declining veterans is a sound decision on a team that is not in a mode to compete for at least a couple years.

It's cool, I don't disagree with you in principle, it's just that I don't think Freddy plays like a declining vet...I think he plays better than our recent First rounder. Let the play on the field do the talking, not the "potential" on paper