One of my biggest concerns about Fitzpatrick

[K Gun Special]

He was 20-28 in his first game against NE last year, the one in which (ahem) Lee Evans actually played.

 

 

 

 

 

And threw a terrible ball late in the game to seal it for NE. I was referencing the 2nd NE game anyway.

[Mark Long Beach]

Dude, what are you even talking about? I said, there is no way that a brand new coaching staff, the GM, the team, the owner came into a game against the Buffalo Bills and said lets entertain the fans. I never said they didnt play with purpose or something to prove. Those are not even remotely close to the same thing. They clearly came out to play with purpose, but it WAS NOT for fan entertainment. It is a new coaching staff, come week 1, those players need to be comfortable running the NEW defense at full speed. So they came out and ran a bigger game plan to get their team ready to play the way they want them to play. They did not play like that for the sole purpose "fan entertainment" as the poster stated in the post I replied to that you are now arguing. How is this still a confusing statement for you?

 

I disagree completely. This was all about the fans. They blitzed, and blitzed and blitzed in the SECOND pre-season game in a year with a shortened off-season. This was their first home game of pre-season as they opened in Dallas.

 

They were 32nd in the league in points allowed and yards allowed per game. They had a HORRIBLE record and defensive stats last year and were trying to get the fans excited about their team's defense again.

 

This was a show for the folks at home.

[Alphadawg7]

Gailey has often spoke in public about Fitz's great ability to read defenses pre-snap, know where to go with the ball, and get the ball to the right player to make plays. In fact, Fitz was making some of the line calls for the center last year. And Gailey doesn't usually throw around superlatives like most coaches.

 

Pre-season, you are simply not going to tell, good or bad, at all, whether a QB can read defenses pre-snap, or after the snap for that matter. If he was making great reads pre-snap in pre-season it wouldn't mean anything either.

 

That said, the entire passing game is not in sync right now, due to numerous issues including no off-season, no continuity on the line, new players, old players out with injury, Gailey trying to see certain things at the total expense of trying to get the most yards out of every single play, etc.

 

Totally agree with everything you said. And yes, Gailey has said that...and then also went out and said they want to go out and find a QB that can be the man for the next 10 years who isnt Fitz. Fitz is only 27, he is plenty young enough to be the man for the next 8 to 10 years...if they thought he could be. So they continued to praise him publicly as he was their QB knowing they need to show support to him because he was going to be our starter this year regardless if we drafted a QB. And you cant praise his accuracy...you cant praise his turnover ratio...about the only thing they can praise his intelligence and ability to call plays at the line. Not saying he is not good at that, I am sure he is, but what else can they say other than things like that because they certainly cant praise his stat lines, arm strength, accuracy, etc.

 

So, to show support, I feel like the staff over states this to be able to keep publicly supporting him as he is our starter. Again, I am sure he is great at pre snap reads, but that is not the same thing as field awareness once the ball is snapped.

 

I disagree completely. This was all about the fans. They blitzed, and blitzed and blitzed in the SECOND pre-season game in a year with a shortened off-season. This was their first home game of pre-season as they opened in Dallas.

 

They were 32nd in the league in points allowed and yards allowed per game. They had a HORRIBLE record and defensive stats last year and were trying to get the fans excited about their team's defense again.

 

This was a show for the folks at home.

 

So let me understand this...you think it makes more sense to assume they decided to Blitz us to get the fan base excited rather than any of the following:

 

1. New coaches and schemes - players did NOT have any experience playing at full game speed in this new system, and they need to do so in preseason in order to be ready for week 1.

2. John Fox is a defensive coach - he wants his D to play a certain way and with a certain intensity...so rather than hope they turn it on week 1, he wanted them to come out like that in one of the 2 most important preseason games (preseason games 2 and 3)

3. They wanted to evaluate the players at full speed since they already were short changed with the lockout and he has not seen them in person at full speed ever since its his first year there.

4. Preseason game 2 and 3 are critical evaluation games for your starters and many teams run full speed.

 

None of those reasons make more sense to you than they did it, risked injuries, etc to simply entertain the fans at a preseason game? This really makes more sense to you?

[The Big Cat]

Dude, what are you even talking about? I said, there is no way that a brand new coaching staff, the GM, the team, the owner came into a game against the Buffalo Bills and said lets entertain the fans. I never said they didnt play with purpose or something to prove. Those are not even remotely close to the same thing. They clearly came out to play with purpose, but it WAS NOT for fan entertainment. It is a new coaching staff, come week 1, those players need to be comfortable running the NEW defense at full speed. So they came out and ran a bigger game plan to get their team ready to play the way they want them to play. They did not play like that for the sole purpose "fan entertainment" as the poster stated in the post I replied to that you are now arguing. How is this still a confusing statement for you?

 

You're a fool to think they're mutually exclusive.

[1billsfan]

I disagree completely. This was all about the fans. They blitzed, and blitzed and blitzed in the SECOND pre-season game in a year with a shortened off-season. This was their first home game of pre-season as they opened in Dallas.

 

They were 32nd in the league in points allowed and yards allowed per game. They had a HORRIBLE record and defensive stats last year and were trying to get the fans excited about their team's defense again.

 

This was a show for the folks at home.

 

 

Amen brother, not to mention that they just added a new head coach who had the worst record in the league last year. To me, Fox was clearly taking advantage of the situation, a Buffalo team ready for a ho-hum preseason game, for reasons of franchise, team and fans' psyche.

[Coach Tuesday]

Don't confuse his age with experience. Don't forget, he hasn't been a starting QB very long.

 

Hey, good point there, Coach Tuesday.

[dave mcbride]

Totally agree...he is much better than what we had, but I have yet to see any signs that he is making any improvements. I like him and love how he plays, so would LOVE nothing more than for him to take it to the next level, I just don't see it happening unfortunately.

 

 

 

That stat line in NE was very deceiving...he was very ineffective in that game and his numbers were padded because for his first game they ran a lot of screens and short dump offs. If it wasn't for Spillers 2nd half KO ret for a TD, we would have been down 23 in the 4th. And, his accuracy was greatly helped in the 4th when we were down 16 and NE started playing prevent and we had guys running open all over the field and we got a garbage time TD. Stat lines can be an illusion...and as the offense opened up more, his accuracy plummeted through the rest of the season.

 

In fact, at first glance his stat line in the next 2 games doesnt look terrible, but he was awful and got a lot of stats help literally with a TD in the final minutes of bad blowout losses. Then the 4th game was Balt. So in his first 4 games, only Balt was really any good. Then in the 9 games after Balt, he had 12 TD's (4 happened in one game, Cincy) with 16 turnovers, a 56% comp, and 70 QB rating and was among the lowest rated QB's in the NFL. So, you can have your one sample of completing a high percentage and will evaluate the rest of his season and his entire career.

 

So, great, he only took 24 sacks...too bad he wasn't a better QB when he wasn't getting sacked.

To clarify: I don't think he's a potential franchise QB. He's way too inaccurate to cover for his interception proclivity (unlike Kurt Warner). He's certainly not the answer, but I think you're criticizing him for the wrong reasons. He clearly understands what's going on out there; he just makes a lot of bad plays. That said, he probably had the best season by a Bills QB since 2002.

[Alphadawg7]

To clarify: I don't think he's a potential franchise QB. He's way too inaccurate to cover for his interception proclivity (unlike Kurt Warner). He's certainly not the answer, but I think you're criticizing him for the wrong reasons. He clearly understands what's going on out there; he just makes a lot of bad plays. That said, he probably had the best season by a Bills QB since 2002.

 

Best season by a Bills QB since 2002 was Bledsoe, hands down.

 

Let me clarify too...I am not criticizing what he is good at...pre snap reads. What I am saying is that his "awareness" is not as good as his ability to read the D pre snap. There is a distinct difference once the ball is hiked and bodies are flying. The OP is talking about his awareness, and some people don't seem to see understand how that is different from being intelligent and able to stand at the LOS and look out over the D and make a call.

[dave mcbride]

Best season by a Bills QB since 2002 was Bledsoe, hands down.

 

Let me clarify too...I am not criticizing what he is good at...pre snap reads. What I am saying is that his "awareness" is not as good as his ability to read the D pre snap. There is a distinct difference once the ball is hiked and bodies are flying. The OP is talking about his awareness, and some people don't seem to see understand how that is different from being intelligent and able to stand at the LOS and look out over the D and make a call.

Yes, I said "since 2002" (meaning after 2002).

[Kelly the Dog]

To clarify: I don't think he's a potential franchise QB. He's way too inaccurate to cover for his interception proclivity (unlike Kurt Warner). He's certainly not the answer, but I think you're criticizing him for the wrong reasons. He clearly understands what's going on out there; he just makes a lot of bad plays. That said, he probably had the best season by a Bills QB since 2002.

Exactly. There is a ton to love about him. He does the VAST majority of the things you want a QB to do well very well. His problem is his accuracy on SOME passes he should hit, which is a major issue. He has few major problems other than that, but it's a significant one. He reads well, he has a strong enough arm, he will put the ball up where WR can make plays, he's tough, he's fearless, he makes plays, he gets the ball in the endzone, he spreads te ball and spreads out the field, he can scramble and he can run, he can step up in the pocket and sense the rush, he's a leader.

 

Sometimes he throws on his back foot, sometimes he has to wind up to make a strong throw and has a quirky throwing motion, but most QBs, even great ones do that more often than most people think.

 

He isn't as accurate as one would like, but he's accurate enough. He played fantastic under the circumstances last year.

 

The other major component of good to very good to great QBs is is he a winner. I would argue that no QB could have been a winner on the Bills last year, considering the line and defense and injuries and schedule and new coaches, etc.

 

I didn't think Fitz was capable of doing what he did last year. I was wrong about him. And now I think it's possible he will be better. I will wait until several games into this year before I have any idea though.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Kelly the Fair and Balanced Dog

[The Big Cat]

I disagree completely. This was all about the fans. They blitzed, and blitzed and blitzed in the SECOND pre-season game in a year with a shortened off-season. This was their first home game of pre-season as they opened in Dallas.

 

They were 32nd in the league in points allowed and yards allowed per game. They had a HORRIBLE record and defensive stats last year and were trying to get the fans excited about their team's defense again.

 

This was a show for the folks at home.

 

Preach.

 

So let me understand this...you think it makes more sense to assume they decided to Blitz us to get the fan base excited rather than any of the following:

 

1. New coaches and schemes - players did NOT have any experience playing at full game speed in this new system, and they need to do so in preseason in order to be ready for week 1.

2. John Fox is a defensive coach - he wants his D to play a certain way and with a certain intensity...so rather than hope they turn it on week 1, he wanted them to come out like that in one of the 2 most important preseason games (preseason games 2 and 3)

3. They wanted to evaluate the players at full speed since they already were short changed with the lockout and he has not seen them in person at full speed ever since its his first year there.

4. Preseason game 2 and 3 are critical evaluation games for your starters and many teams run full speed.

 

None of those reasons make more sense to you than they did it, risked injuries, etc to simply entertain the fans at a preseason game? This really makes more sense to you?

 

So because your bullets are true, then no element of fan enjoyment could possibly factor in? None? Why not? Because you didn't think of it?

[Captain Hindsight]

Awareness before the ball is snapped.

 

This means a lot of things:

 

- Is an OLB or CB cheating to blitz

- Are your WR's uncovered or in a mismatch with a LB

- Are the safeties cheating up giving your WR's the opportunity to get behind them

- Should you use a hard count to draw speed rushers (ie: Von Miller) offsides, and not allow them to get a quick start every snap

 

I have yet to see Fitzpatrick do many of these things. And this seems to have been a problem with every QB we've had here in Buffalo since Flutie and Bledsoe were taking snaps for us. It's just common football sense that you need to have to be a successful Quarterback. It's what made guys like Jim Kelly and Brett Favre great instead of just good. I don't know whether we're not coaching it here, or if our guys just don't have what it takes. But this is one of the BIG things that need to change in order for Fitzpatrick and this offense to be successful.

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-center/videos#?id=2fc19558-c52e-4f54-a1da-e8ae7c9ee55d

 

starts at 8:53

[The Big Cat]

http://www.buffalobills.com/media-center/videos#?id=2fc19558-c52e-4f54-a1da-e8ae7c9ee55d

 

starts at 8:53

 

8:53?

[K-9]

Awareness before the ball is snapped.

 

This means a lot of things:

 

- Is an OLB or CB cheating to blitz

- Are your WR's uncovered or in a mismatch with a LB

- Are the safeties cheating up giving your WR's the opportunity to get behind them

- Should you use a hard count to draw speed rushers (ie: Von Miller) offsides, and not allow them to get a quick start every snap

 

I have yet to see Fitzpatrick do many of these things. And this seems to have been a problem with every QB we've had here in Buffalo since Flutie and Bledsoe were taking snaps for us. It's just common football sense that you need to have to be a successful Quarterback. It's what made guys like Jim Kelly and Brett Favre great instead of just good. I don't know whether we're not coaching it here, or if our guys just don't have what it takes. But this is one of the BIG things that need to change in order for Fitzpatrick and this offense to be successful.

 

Do yourself a favor and watch a replay of the Ravens game from last season. That was the best piece of QBing we've had since Kelly in terms of absolutely owning a defense. He had one of the best defenses in the league absolutely fooled. And I've never seen Ray Lewis get fooled like he was by Fitzpatrick. He had the Ravens guessing wrong the entire game.

 

As for Fitz's physical limitations (i.e. accuracy) I'm not sure he can do much to improve. And he will hurt at times as a result. But in terms of putting the O in the best position to beat a defense, I'm convinced he will do that far more often than not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Alphadawg7]

Yes, I said "since 2002" (meaning after 2002).

 

I know, I was agreeing with you

 

Do yourself a favor and watch a replay of the Ravens game from last season. That was the best piece of QBing we've had since Kelly in terms of absolutely owning a defense. He had one of the best defenses in the league absolutely fooled. And I've never seen Ray Lewis get fooled like he was by Fitzpatrick. He had the Ravens guessing wrong the entire game.

 

As for Fitz's physical limitations (i.e. accuracy) I'm not sure he can do much to improve. And he will hurt at times as a result. But in terms of putting the O in the best position to beat a defense, I'm convinced he will do that far more often than not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

HAHAHAHA come on man. First off, everyone knew that last year the Achilles heal and suspect part of the Ravens D was pass defense. Secondly, you have a selective memory because Fitz sure didnt have them fooled when Fitz came out with a double digit half time lead and proceeded to throw two terrible INT's to the same Ravens D that was so masterfully fooled that gave away our double digit lead away for good as they scored a TD off of each turnover. Geezus, this is getting deep in here today...lmao

 

I swear, people act like it was the Ravens D that won them the SB he did this to. Not to mention, WE LOST, and a big reason we lost was because our double digit lead evaporated off of Fitz's 2 awful 3rd qtr INT's. And, it was ONE...let me repeat ONE game. How did he do in the very next 9 games to finish the season after Balt? Let me help, 12 TD's (and 4 were in one game), 16 turnovers, 56% comp, and a QB rating of 70 and against mostly lesser quality opponents. Hmmm...I wonder what sample size is more representative of his level of expected play...one fluke game unlike any game he has played in his career, or just about every other game he has played as a professional QB including the 9 games following that mythical Balt game (that we lost) where his comp % is bad, TD to turnovers is bad, and rating is bad.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Alphadawg7

[The Big Cat]

I know, I was agreeing with you

 

 

 

HAHAHAHA come on man. First off, everyone knew that last year the Achilles heal and suspect part of the Ravens D was pass defense. Secondly, you have a selective memory because Fitz sure didnt have them fooled when Fitz came out with a double digit half time lead and proceeded to throw two terrible INT's to the same Ravens D that was so masterfully fooled that gave away our double digit lead away for good as they scored a TD off of each turnover. Geezus, this is getting deep in here today...lmao

 

I swear, people act like it was the Ravens D that won them the SB he did this to. Not to mention, WE LOST, and a big reason we lost was because our double digit lead evaporated off of Fitz's 2 awful 3rd qtr INT's. And, it was ONE...let me repeat ONE game. How did he do in the very next 9 games to finish the season after Balt? Let me help, 12 TD's (and 4 were in one game), 16 turnovers, 56% comp, and a QB rating of 70 and against mostly lesser quality opponents. Hmmm...I wonder what sample size is more representative of his level of expected play...one fluke game unlike any game he has played in his career, or just about every other game he has played as a professional QB including the 9 games following that mythical Balt game (that we lost) where his comp % is bad, TD to turnovers is bad, and rating is bad.

 

So, generally speaking, what's your point?

[K-9]

I know, I was agreeing with you

 

 

 

HAHAHAHA come on man. First off, everyone knew that last year the Achilles heal and suspect part of the Ravens D was pass defense. Secondly, you have a selective memory because Fitz sure didnt have them fooled when Fitz came out with a double digit half time lead and proceeded to throw two terrible INT's to the same Ravens D that was so masterfully fooled that gave away our double digit lead away for good as they scored a TD off of each turnover. Geezus, this is getting deep in here today...lmao

 

I swear, people act like it was the Ravens D that won them the SB he did this to. Not to mention, WE LOST, and a big reason we lost was because our double digit lead evaporated off of Fitz's 2 awful 3rd qtr INT's. And, it was ONE...let me repeat ONE game. How did he do in the very next 9 games to finish the season after Balt? Let me help, 12 TD's (and 4 were in one game), 16 turnovers, 56% comp, and a QB rating of 70 and against mostly lesser quality opponents. Hmmm...I wonder what sample size is more representative of his level of expected play...one fluke game unlike any game he has played in his career, or just about every other game he has played as a professional QB including the 9 games following that mythical Balt game (that we lost) where his comp % is bad, TD to turnovers is bad, and rating is bad.

 

Perhaps I should have emphasized "in terms of owning a defense" more. I simply meant that he made the proper reads, adjustments, and RE-adjustments every time in that game and that's not done too often against Ray Lewis and the Ravens. It just isn't. I intentionally draw the distinction between "passing" and "quarterbacking" and Fitz was great at quarterbacking that day. With your experience in the game I know you can appreciate the difference between a quarterback and a passer.

 

We can both agree that his passing needs work. And I don't think much can be done to improve his accuracy at this point. I don't dispute that at all.

 

But the OP's entire point as I read it was that he didn't witness Fitz performing the mental aspects of quarterbacking and he clearly has. That was my point.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Alphadawg7]

Perhaps I should have emphasized "in terms of owning a defense" more. I simply meant that he made the proper reads, adjustments, and RE-adjustments every time in that game and that's not done too often against Ray Lewis and the Ravens. It just isn't. I intentionally draw the distinction between "passing" and "quarterbacking" and Fitz was great at quarterbacking that day. With your experience in the game I know you can appreciate the difference between a quarterback and a passer.

 

We can both agree that his passing needs work. And I don't think much can be done to improve his accuracy at this point. I don't dispute that at all.

 

But the OP's entire point as I read it was that he didn't witness Fitz performing the mental aspects of quarterbacking and he clearly has. That was my point.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Fair enough, and I don't disagree with what you are saying in this post...it was just how you wrote your original post that threw me for a loop of such ownage of the Ravens. Fitz did have a great game, especially in comparison to the crap QB's of recent years, but he also made critical mistakes which gave away 14 quick points. I truly do love how he plays and cross my fingers he figures out how to step it up. I just havent seen anything to give me the optimism that he can at this stage in his career.

 

I will be the first to admit that the Ravens game is sore spot for me. I just get so tired of hearing about this one game, and game we lost, as if its proves he is this divine QB. People always site this game and ignore his overall poor body of work in the ensuing 9 weeks to end the season where he was one of the lowest rated QB's in the league over that span with more turnovers than TD's.

 

Cheers Go Bills!

Edited August 22, 2011 by Alphadawg7

[Mark Long Beach]

So let me understand this...you think it makes more sense to assume they decided to Blitz us to get the fan base excited rather than any of the following:

 

1. New coaches and schemes - players did NOT have any experience playing at full game speed in this new system, and they need to do so in preseason in order to be ready for week 1.

2. John Fox is a defensive coach - he wants his D to play a certain way and with a certain intensity...so rather than hope they turn it on week 1, he wanted them to come out like that in one of the 2 most important preseason games (preseason games 2 and 3)

3. They wanted to evaluate the players at full speed since they already were short changed with the lockout and he has not seen them in person at full speed ever since its his first year there.

4. Preseason game 2 and 3 are critical evaluation games for your starters and many teams run full speed.

 

None of those reasons make more sense to you than they did it, risked injuries, etc to simply entertain the fans at a preseason game? This really makes more sense to you?

 

Nonsense. Of course they were doing those things to some degree or another. All teams do some of these things.

 

However, what I'm saying is that they were concentrating more on victory than evaluation. That is to say, concentrating more on putting on a confident show for their fans than to on practice.

 

I'm not knocking them for it, but I'm recognizing that the game has less meaning than if they were approaching it the same way we were. They have a new coach and they desperately need to remove the stink of Rod Marinelli who was 6-20 over his last 26 games. (and also botched MANY personnel moves such as getting rid of Cutler & probowl Brandon Marshall while drafted Tim Tebow)

 

Look, there's a reason that the Detroit Lions have are 2-0 preseason right now and have gone 3-1, 3-1 & 4-0 their last 4. Oh and don't forget that 4-0 preseason? that's when they went 0-16. If you're really playing to win a preseason game you're going to win it.

 

Look, here's an example from this game: Our left tackle D Bell was clearly getting outperformed by Dummerville & Von Miller, by Chan Gailey's own words he refused to shift protections over and refused to allow TE or RB chipping to slow them down. Thus whenever Bell was beaten that current play was in serious jeopardy of being ruined and the entire possession(!) could be ruined. And in fact both of these things happened more than once.

 

That is NOT playing to win the game, that is playing to evaluate how players are playing. This is not what the Denver Broncos were doing in this game.

[dave mcbride]

I know, I was agreeing with you

 

 

 

HAHAHAHA come on man. First off, everyone knew that last year the Achilles heal and suspect part of the Ravens D was pass defense. Secondly, you have a selective memory because Fitz sure didnt have them fooled when Fitz came out with a double digit half time lead and proceeded to throw two terrible INT's to the same Ravens D that was so masterfully fooled that gave away our double digit lead away for good as they scored a TD off of each turnover. Geezus, this is getting deep in here today...lmao

 

I swear, people act like it was the Ravens D that won them the SB he did this to. Not to mention, WE LOST, and a big reason we lost was because our double digit lead evaporated off of Fitz's 2 awful 3rd qtr INT's. And, it was ONE...let me repeat ONE game. How did he do in the very next 9 games to finish the season after Balt? Let me help, 12 TD's (and 4 were in one game), 16 turnovers, 56% comp, and a QB rating of 70 and against mostly lesser quality opponents. Hmmm...I wonder what sample size is more representative of his level of expected play...one fluke game unlike any game he has played in his career, or just about every other game he has played as a professional QB including the 9 games following that mythical Balt game (that we lost) where his comp % is bad, TD to turnovers is bad, and rating is bad.

The combined record of those opponents was 75-69. Also, when making an argument, I always refrain from downplaying big games that ostensibly pad stats. Every freaking player in the league has games like that. On the flip side, they also have terrible games that don't accord with their overall record either. In any event, why focus only on the final nine? Why not the final ten? It only makes sense because the bye week was immediately prior to the Ravens game. If you include that one, the Bills' opponents' collective record was 87-73. As for the Ravens' pass d sucking, try again - they were seventh in the league in net yards per attempt (5.8; the most important stat by far), 8th in INTs, and 9th in TDs allowed. They were 21st in passing yards allowed, but that needs to be weighed against the fact that only two other defenses faced more passing attempts. That goes with the territory when you're ahead. Overall, opposing QBs had a 76.4 passer rating against the Ravens. That's not good.

 

They were 10th overall on defense (yards allowed) and 3rd overall in points allowed.

Edited August 22, 2011 by dave mcbride