Should the Bills management care less about character?

[Dirtbag]

The only risk that turned how to be successful was Randy Moss. And he was still a sh##head in the locker room. Mike Brown has made Cincinnati the half way house of the NFL and how well is that working out? lol

 

dude, the pats are a million times better than the bills. and at least cincy has had a winning record in the past five years.

 

what does that say of the "character-driven" bills?

Edited August 20, 2011 by Dirtbag

[offyourocker]

I don't want Pryor.

 

The Bills don't care that much about character, though. That was just a marketing buzzword popularized by the return of Marv Levy.

 

Strangely, the character guys always seem to be 30% cheaper in Buffalo

[Thoner7]

Without hesitation, I would sign Osama Bin Laden and Adolf Hitler to play right guard and tackle if they were any good.

 

Its football. I care about how good they are at football. I cheer for Vick and I hate Kelsay. One is a terrible person the other is a great guy, but I hate Kelsay because he sucks at football.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Thoner7

[Dirtbag]

Without hesitation, I would sign Osama Bin Laden and Adolf Hitler to play right guard and tackle if they were any good.

 

Its football. I care about how good they are at football. I cheer for Vick and I hate Kelsay. One is a terrible person the other is a great guy, but I hate Kelsay because he sucks at football.

 

don't get me wrong, i love fitz. i just think stalin is a franchise qb.

Edited August 20, 2011 by Dirtbag

[Giaimo25]

Youre right if they listened to Styx, Foreigner & REO Speedwagon they would be so much better!

 

You should've seen by the film of these guys Ralph

There was somethin missin

You should've known not to pick up maybin

But you didn't listen

You played dead

Playoffs never been

Instead we layed still in the grass

All our pro bowlers went missin

 

And though I know all about those men

We picked guys we wont remember

Cause we picked busts before all of them

Seasons over by December

And I meant, every word I said

When I said that I love you I meant

That I love you forever

 

And I'm gonna keep on lovin you

Cause it's the only thing I wanna do

I don't wanna sleep

I just wanna keep on lovin you ( and maybe make the playoffs some time soon)

 

 

If your tired of the same old story, Turn some pages. I'll be here when you are ready, to roll with the changes.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist....

[White Linen]

I don't want Pryor.

 

The Bills don't care that much about character, though. That was just a marketing buzzword popularized by the return of Marv Levy.

 

Absolutely no evidence to support this ludicrous statement.

[OCinBuffalo]

what's your argument? jp is bad for cleaning up the city? sports agents suck? only fans, who have zero intimate knowledge of the emotional life of players can be trusted to judge character?

 

character on the football field is winning. that's all it is. it's about beating the hell out of the guy on the opposite side of the line.

 

if a player is great, we will excuse all manner of transgressions. winning is the entire point of this enterprise.

 

when it comes to the bills, i just want them to win. i'll look elsewhere for lessons in morality.

I thought it was simple to understand. Apparently I need to make it simpler. Bills fans aren't fooled by contrived PR "appearances" framed as substitutes for obvious strength of character. That may play elsewhere, in fact, I know it does, but it doesn't play here. I am saying just the opposite of your inference: Character, on the field, is the only thing that fans can judge accurately. Many fans will judge things they can't be accurate about, regardless.

 

Yes, and if we aren't sure about your character from watching you on the field, hitting some dopey woman with your truck is a great way to let the people who do think they can determine a player's character without actually knowing them personally, have a field day.

 

No, we won't excuse them. Especially if there is a FA/draft pick replacement out there. Uhh, Travis Henry/Makebaby/Lynch? This may be dumb, but I am merely stating things as they are, not as we wish them to be.

 

That's your view. Few see it the exact same way, because NFL is a many-faceted product that people consume for different reasons. You're not wrong, you're just not the same as everyone else. These players have a good job, that no one is forcing them to do. If they can't handle the terms of the job, they can choose not to do it. Some fans, who aren't you, require the players to be principled. Their money is as good as yours is...perhaps better. The NFL wants everyone's money, so the NFL deals with everyone's requirements. Like I said: simple.

Edited August 20, 2011 by OCinBuffalo

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Without hesitation, I would sign Osama Bin Laden and Adolf Hitler to play right guard and tackle if they were any good.

 

Its football. I care about how good they are at football. I cheer for Vick and I hate Kelsay. One is a terrible person the other is a great guy, but I hate Kelsay because he sucks at football.

 

Why would you hate a man for not being good at football? And really, you only hate him for not being good at football relative to other NFL players. Relative to everybody in the world, he is shockingly good at football.

 

If you read this board, Chris, I like you buddy!

[Thoner7]

Why would you hate a man for not being good at football? And really, you only hate him for not being good at football relative to other NFL players. Relative to everybody in the world, he is shockingly good at football.

 

If you read this board, Chris, I like you buddy!

 

That is true, obviously thats what I meant too. But I hate him because he is one of the [many] main reasons my beloved Bills have sucked my entire adult life.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

That is true, obviously thats what I meant too. But I hate him because he is one of the [many] main reasons my beloved Bills have sucked my entire adult life.

 

I feel ya there, man. But if I think of it this way...if Kelsay played for a competent organization he'd be known as an above average second stringer who's great in the lockerroom. He'd come in when another player needed a breather, and might even start a few games due to injuries. Heck, he'd probably pick up a couple sacks and be a fan favorite. As it stands, he plays for an organization that's convinced he's a starter for whatever reason.

[KD in CA]

Have you seen his accuracy?.... somehow I think my face is safe. After he missed, I'd point out that it was Jesus fault and offer him a non-alcoholic beverage.

 

 

[RealityCheck]

Absolutely no evidence to support this ludicrous statement.

Just as there is no evidence to the contrary, "character" is generally an overused buzz word that fans cling to. Which is why PR people permeate corporate and political America, the selling of specific images is what the public craves. The last thing we want is reality.

[Malazan]

The current regime isn't so much about 'character' and never said they were. They have stated that they want guys who *live* football.

Edited August 20, 2011 by jeremy2020

[tennesseeboy]

rigid character decisions got us where we are today. We could have drafted Bryant McKinney over character guy Mike Williams. We could have gotten Mike Vick over character guy JP Losman/Trent Edwards or ryan Fitz. We could have drafted Randy Moss or jeremy shockey....nope...we are at fourth place in the AFC East with character guys.

[Hplarrm]

Rather than worrying primarily about the character shown by the players, I think the Bills FO and owner need to get a character and football judgment transplant themselves. The players are generally steroid infused autonomatons who have the habit of told when to sleep, what to do, and where to go by their coaches and universities. Ultimately, individuals are individuals but to a great degree character is a reflection of leadership.

 

The Bills ownership and FO leadership have consistently reflected an approach to the game which judges it more as a business than an exercise in sportsmanship. While there is the occaisional legend in their own mind Randy Moss who will be Randy in any situation, the character shown by the players is in many ways a reflection of the tone set by the owners and the FO.

 

Folks are falling into a false contrast that there is some sort of zero sum equation with character on one side and performance on the other. A lot of this I attribute to the way the initial post asks the question as though there is some direct correlation as though a central (or even significant) part of the Bills problem was passing on talented players because they had previous problems.

 

I simply see no consistent evidence that this is the case.

 

The character assessment problem I do see the Bills having in cases such as the gifts of cash given to players such as Dockery or Langston Walker who seemed to be paid far above what they should have commanded on the market is that these players seem to promote a view which sees their Bills membership in the context of what is in it for them rather than going out of their way to achieve good for the team.

 

I would not necessarily fault Dockery or Walker as showing little character for signing the best contract they could get. Where I think the character issue comes in is that from the outward appearance they give they seem to be encouraging folks like Jason Peters to look out for themselves when it came to contract negotiation time rather than taking less money ostensibly for the team.

 

However, even in this case, my sense is that the problem here is less about the character of the team player leadership and more is about the bad professional FO judgment of the Bills and lack of setting a sportsmanlike self-sacrificing tone by the FO and owner.

 

The Bills have a clear rep and deservedly so of the ownership treating the Bills more like a business and only secondarily as an exercise in doing well at the sport. When push comes to shove and the Bills owners seem to have to make a decision between risking the business structure with the possibility of winning on the field or instead pinching pennies here or there, the Bills ownership and FO seem to generally come down on the side of saving a nickel. In cases like Pat Williams it seems like the Bills only needed to go a little further in putting up some cash and refused to do so and lost a player who only now with the emergence of Williams and drafting of Dareus do they seem to be addressing. Likewise, the Bills did a great job of finding a diamond in the rough of signing Peters as a UDFA, but then simply made a bad football decision in overpaying Dockery and Walker.

 

The hardline the Bills seemed to take with their best player on the OL (which even those who choose to hate him have to admit was the case given the other Bills OL players( too me showed at least poor football judgment by the FO is not a lack of character on the owners part.

[Dirtbag]

I thought it was simple to understand. Apparently I need to make it simpler. Bills fans aren't fooled by contrived PR "appearances" framed as substitutes for obvious strength of character. That may play elsewhere, in fact, I know it does, but it doesn't play here. I am saying just the opposite of your inference: Character, on the field, is the only thing that fans can judge accurately. Many fans will judge things they can't be accurate about, regardless.

 

Yes, and if we aren't sure about your character from watching you on the field, hitting some dopey woman with your truck is a great way to let the people who do think they can determine a player's character without actually knowing them personally, have a field day.

 

No, we won't excuse them. Especially if there is a FA/draft pick replacement out there. Uhh, Travis Henry/Makebaby/Lynch? This may be dumb, but I am merely stating things as they are, not as we wish them to be.

 

That's your view. Few see it the exact same way, because NFL is a many-faceted product that people consume for different reasons. You're not wrong, you're just not the same as everyone else. These players have a good job, that no one is forcing them to do. If they can't handle the terms of the job, they can choose not to do it. Some fans, who aren't you, require the players to be principled. Their money is as good as yours is...perhaps better. The NFL wants everyone's money, so the NFL deals with everyone's requirements. Like I said: simple.

 

i still have no idea where you come out on this. in paragraph 1, you seem to agree with me that character on the field is all that matters. thanks for that. in paragraph 2 you define character in terms of the player's personal life. in paragraph 3 you say "we" ("we" being fans beside me, apparently) won't excuse the personal transgressions of players. Then in your last paragraph you reiterate that most everyone disagrees with me and their money is better than mine for some reason.

 

it's fine with me if certain fans (which may or may not include you -- i'm not sure) want to have a moral litmus test for players. i just hope our front office doesn't.

 

as for pr stunts, we bills fans don't seem immune. this team has somehow maintained fairly solid attendance numbers despite a decade of atrocious play with dismal results. seems like brandon pulled off the biggest pr coup of all.

[NoSaint]

I think most misunderstood Levys character. He wanted guys that didn't take plays off, not guys that go to church. Guys that aren't a distraction with drama, not guys that were morally opposed to strip clubs.

 

It's about 60 minutes of the best football possible every Sunday. You see these guys in all the winning teams. Arguably we are still targeting them with team captains, 4 year players etc.... Being bad at evaluating talent is the issue of the last ten years. Seeking high character guys did not lead us down this road.

Edited August 20, 2011 by NoSaint

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I can't speak for the current FO but Marv talked about character as soon as he was hired as coach. What many people have forgotten over the years is that Marv wasn't talking about character as in choir boys. He placed high importance on "football" character. Those were the types of players he wanted. The kind that took care of business on and off the field. If his players were stellar citizens as well so much the better. But it wasn't a prerequisite. Kelly, Bruce, and many others partied hard off the field. But they ALWAYS took care of their business in practice, meetings, film study, and games.

 

Football character. We've got some players that have it again.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I only have a few points to add.

 

1) K-9s point above is a really important distinction. Great football players with a competitive fire and a will to win is what Marv was talking about. Kelly, Smith, Thomas, and company were not choir boys. Marv's views on character are repeatedly misunderstood by some.

 

2) I also agree with OC in Buffalo to some extent that Buffalonians can be very judgmental about an athlete's nature so a community like this one is not a great environment for some players.

 

3) Taking in bad character guys is a risk. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it blows up. When you take on these risks you know you're playing with fire. It's like Russian Roulette.

 

4) Different teams have different tolerances for this risk. New England has won multiple championships. They have a Hall of Fame coach and a good veteran roster. Players that come to New England by and large are willing to buckle down and subsume some of their character flaws for the opportunity to win a championship.

 

In Cincinnati on the other hand, many of their risky player decisions have backfired and while one can argue that they've been more successful than the Bills over the last 10 years (and I'm not sure to what degree this may be the case), I think that the Bengals' marginally better performance is not worth the increased locker room dramas and police blotter hits that their roster has generated. So they have a few more wins. We should use them as an example and populate our roster with hoodlums and punks… for a few more wins?

 

 

 

 

[Defend Greece]

I only have a few points to add.

 

1) K-9s point above is a really important distinction. Great football players with a competitive fire and a will to win is what Marv was talking about. Kelly, Smith, Thomas, and company were not choir boys. Marv's views on character are repeatedly misunderstood by some.

 

2) I also agree with OC in Buffalo to some extent that Buffalonians can be very judgmental about an athlete's nature so a community like this one is not a great environment for some players.

 

3) Taking in bad character guys is a risk. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it blows up. When you take on these risks you know you're playing with fire. It's like Russian Roulette.

 

4) Different teams have different tolerances for this risk. New England has won multiple championships. They have a Hall of Fame coach and a good veteran roster. Players that come to New England by and large are willing to buckle down and subsume some of their character flaws for the opportunity to win a championship.

 

In Cincinnati on the other hand, many of their risky player decisions have backfired and while one can argue that they've been more successful than the Bills over the last 10 years (and I'm not sure to what degree this may be the case), I think that the Bengals' marginally better performance is not worth the increased locker room dramas and police blotter hits that their roster has generated. So they have a few more wins. We should use them as an example and populate our roster with hoodlums and punks… for a few more wins?

Not to mention their two most prolific players of the last decade couldn't stand to be there

[Stl Bills]

There always two sides to the story, in Tampa look no further than Aquib Talib.