(only kinda OT) the "U" is ScrUwed.

[CodeMonkey]

If you read the SI article about the "dirty dealing" of a real life agent. The kids aren't asking for 10s of thousands of dollars, they're asking for a couple hundred dollars.

Now this is true. It wouldn't be as soon as paying the student athletes directly was legal.

There would end up being a CBA like the pro athletes have and both sides would argue over the equitable split of revenue just like their professional counterparts do now. It would be inevitable.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Destroying DI football? Really? That to me sounds really naive.

 

I was paid by my University, it's called a work study. The mechanism already exists to pay student athletes.

 

This morality clause of the NCAA is strange. We make Billions of dollars because of "amateur" sports but just the discussion of trickling some of those dollars down to the student athletes is off limits.

Well there is your problem right there.

 

The money is there. The problem is breaking it up equitable across the DI football progress. Which can be solved.

 

If you read the SI article about the "dirty dealing" of a real life agent. The kids aren't asking for 10s of thousands of dollars, they're asking for a couple hundred dollars.

 

Paying scholorship students about $25-50 an hour above the table for money generating D-I sports like Football and basketball is an achievable goal and then having extremely harsh "Death penalty" ramifications for anyone that breaks the rules, incentives the Universitys to police them self.

 

The "death penalty" is vary rarely used.

 

What happens in most situations, the coach gets fired and you lose out on a bowl gas for 2 years. In the long term this is pretty tame punishment. The university isn't losing out on 100s of millions.

 

If there is a quick "Dealth penalty" for impropriety than the Universities wouldn't want to risk losing out on the 100s of millions of dollars and if they see suspicious booster activity.

 

 

Common Objectives:

 

"They get paid already, in a scholarship"

 

When you go out with friends for dinner can you just say to the restaurant, put that on my scholarship?

 

The kids need some walking around money, and they're going to get one way or another. the NCAA doesn't allow scholarship athletes to have a job. That is a problem.

 

I needed the $7 an hour I got from my Work-Study in a major way.

 

"Its college sports it's pure"

 

Its 2011, not 1911 wake up.

 

We actually do not disagree on most issues. I realize that destroying the system is not likely; that was my response to what I thought was dave saying "meh, everybody does it."

 

I do think you give short shrift to the important objections [ahem] that people have to paying athletes, but some reform is possible. Some sort of universal stipend [same for all players] as part of their financial aid in lieu of a work-study job does make sense. As does the more liberal use of the death penalty for dirty programs, and especially stronger punishments for coaches who skip town one step ahead of probation.

 

If colleges need to find the money for the stipends, they can take it out of the ridiculous salaries paid to coaches. It frankly disgusts me that football coaches, who are the most authoritarian, all-controlling figures in all of sports, can claim they have no idea about wrongdoing in their programs. They know, and they know they do not want anyone to know that they know. Disgusting.

Edited August 17, 2011 by RJ (not THAT RJ)

[1B4IDie]

We actually do not disagree on most issues. I realize that destroying the system is not likely; that was my response to what I thought was dave saying "meh, everybody does it."

 

I do think you give short shrift to the important objections [ahem] that people have to paying athletes, but some reform is possible. Some sort of universal stipend [same for all players] as part of their financial aid in lieu of a work-study job does make sense. As does the more liberal use of the death penalty for dirty programs, and especially stronger punishments for coaches who skip town one step ahead of probation.

 

If colleges need to find the money for the stipends, they can take it out of the ridiculous salaries paid to coaches. It frankly disgusts me that football coaches, who are the most authoritarian, all-controlling figures in all of sports, can claim they have no idea about wrongdoing in their programs. They know, and they know they do not want anyone to know that they know. Disgusting.

 

I apologize if that came off as personal, I don't think you were seriously proposing that.

It just was fuel for my rant.

 

A universal stipend amount would be an even simpler solution, but again this only works if the "Death-Penalty" is liberally applied.

 

The Old Ball Coach in South Carolina already proposed to pay the player's out of the coach's salary, However this is a recipe for disaster.

 

A strong universally applied Work Study amount or stipend is key for an improved system.

 

(On a side note I believe the inflated salary of the College Coach has evolved on purpose by the Universities. The idea is we know there is dirty dealings, we know it has to happen to stay competitive, we know we don't want the university to receive the death penalty, so we will pay you, The Coach, and insane amount of money to be the fall guy if something gets out to the public. Enough money to protect your family for years if and when your record becomes blemished. That is really the only way these sums are justified.)

Edited August 17, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[Offside Number 76]

 

He seemed genuinly upset.

 

 

He sure did.

 

 

Common Objectives:

 

"They get paid already, in a scholarship"

 

When you go out with friends for dinner can you just say to the restaurant, put that on my scholarship?

 

The kids need some walking around money, and they're going to get it one way or another. The NCAA doesn't allow scholarship athletes to have a job. That is a problem.

 

I needed the $7 an hour I got from my Work-Study in a major way.

 

The big problem is that they're not allowed to have a job. Either cut practice to 20 hours/week and let them have legitimate jobs, or give them $3000 in walking around money per semester (yes, I think that's plenty). I don't know how much has changed since the late eighties, but we weren't going out to dinner at nice restaurants too often. Bennigan's twice a semester was about it. And I don't think the scholarship athlete needs any more money than the scholarship musician or engineer does (I understand that kids in those categories are allowed to work--but I also understand that they'll be putting in a hell of a lot of time practicing or studying, meaning they're not going to earn more than about $3000 per semester working). Also--let's not forget that the scholarship swimmer, wrestler, track star, etc. seems to get by without a job and without any handouts from boosters. They can't work, either.

 

"It is college sports; it is pure"

 

Its 2011, not 1911 wake up.

 

"What about D-I water polo, do they get paid?"

 

No. There is not a Billions tied up to televise Water Polo. When there are, we can discuss. Right now D-I College Basketball and D-I College Football are the only real money generating sports.

 

So what? The water polo kids aren't allowed to work, either. (See above...)

 

"Most programs actually lose money"

 

BS. We're talking about D-I FBS football and D-I Basketball. I don't believe that at all.

 

How much do you think the UB programs make? Most programs do lose money. Miami probably doesn't, though.

 

The best solution is a true minor league system for football and basketball. Then a kid can make a real choice between pursuing sports and college or just sports. Works just fine for hockey and baseball players.

[Jauronimo]

You probably just described the majority of the big money boosters in general.

My impression of the old money boosters was that they were only interested in attracting and retaining top talent for the sake of prestige of a winning football program, love of alma mater and intense personal rivalries between other boosters. They called themselves slave traders, I'll ignore the glaring racial aspect, since they were treating players like commodities.

 

Shapiro seemed to really want the players to love him. Maybe it was for love of Miami football, but his story seems odd compared to others.

[Drifter]

The University of Miami brand is in the "too big to fail" category for the NCAA. Giving them the death penalty would lower their TV contract value. They may lose scholarships etc. but no death penalty.

[HARCO186]

This is just one school. The NCAA itself is a cheating lying BS deal all together. The NCAA should be under investigation for the bowl games and cash received for putting the bowl games in order like they do. That's another topic but The U isn't alone and if the NCAA really wanted to stop these things from getting worse then the agents themselves should face being banned from colleges if they help cheat or get players money. Why punish a school for the players? Why not hit the people doing these acts like team up with the NFL and ban them from pro sports if they take such bennies along with the agents? Simple answer is the NFL wouldn't have enough players to play if they imposed such rules. This is all politics and someone was caught and cried for a plea.

[Ramius]

Why? Ohio State wasn't given the death sentence.

 

 

 

Pot, meet kettle, Free Sneakers University/Cheating scandal

 

 

 

You cant judge a school by it's football team. I'm sure if someone judged ECC that way you'd be upset.

 

Sounds like someone is whining because his university is about to get butt hammered.

 

There's a huge difference between an isolated incident (the FSU cheating scandal), and lack of institutional control, where an entire program is running roughshod over the rules over the course of many years, and the scandal involves players, coaches, and most likely high level administrators.

 

The good part about UM getting hammered is that only the 784 fans that attend the games are going to be disappointed.

[PS 56]

As long as the colleges make millions, the coaches make millions and everyone connected to the team makes good money EXCEPT the players, we will have this nonsense going on. In my opinion collegiate athletics at this level is the biggest scam there is. The players are supposed to be happy with a scholarship and maybe work study. A large number of these kids don't even graduate. Most college athletes do not make it into the pro's so the possibility of big money in the future is not much of a consolation prize. Just like anyone else in the USA, collegiate athletes should be able to make money in any legal endeavor including selling endorsements, signing autographs, etc.

[pmacla]

Reason NCAA doesnt want to pay players is because they would lose their "amateur" statuse and they and players being paid would have to pay taxes.

 

I know it would be controversial but I am pretty sure if the Govt made orginizations such as NCAA and Ministries pay taxes that would lower the debt alot maybe even wipe it out

 

On another note USC got 2 years for 1 player being caught just 1, Ohio State and Miami better get more than that with multiple players already being caught hell OSU coach and NCAA let players they knew of play in a BCS bowl game to not lose money

[1B4IDie]

He sure did.

 

 

 

The big problem is that they're not allowed to have a job. Either cut practice to 20 hours/week and let them have legitimate jobs, or give them $3000 in walking around money per semester (yes, I think that's plenty). I don't know how much has changed since the late eighties, but we weren't going out to dinner at nice restaurants too often. Bennigan's twice a semester was about it. And I don't think the scholarship athlete needs any more money than the scholarship musician or engineer does (I understand that kids in those categories are allowed to work--but I also understand that they'll be putting in a hell of a lot of time practicing or studying, meaning they're not going to earn more than about $3000 per semester working). Also--let's not forget that the scholarship swimmer, wrestler, track star, etc. seems to get by without a job and without any handouts from boosters. They can't work, either.

 

 

 

So what? The water polo kids aren't allowed to work, either. (See above...)

 

 

 

How much do you think the UB programs make? Most programs do lose money. Miami probably doesn't, though.

 

The best solution is a true minor league system for football and basketball. Then a kid can make a real choice between pursuing sports and college or just sports. Works just fine for hockey and baseball players.

 

You are 100% correct, the problem is MLB and NHL have to figure out a business plan to pay for the farm system.

The NFL has a free farm system and even mandates that it's employees have to spend three years somewhere (read College Football) in-between High School and the NFL in order to enter the draft.

That's not likely to change.

 

The benefit is that College Football and Basketball have generated Billions for their universities.

 

I'm sure that the Universities prefer this. They just need to deal with the realities of the Billion dollar system they created and stop treating in like an amateur sport from 1950 because it is most certainly not.

[dib]

Sounds like someone is whining because his university is about to get butt hammered.

 

Odd you would use the term 'butt hammered' but then again you're an FSU fan.

 

There's a huge difference between an isolated incident (the FSU cheating scandal), and lack of institutional control, where an entire program is running roughshod over the rules over the course of many years, and the scandal involves players, coaches, and most likely high level administrators.

 

Really? A difference? How so? Is that like being 'a little pregnant'?

 

The good part about UM getting hammered is that only the 784 fans that attend the games are going to be disappointed.

 

An 80,000 seat stadium looks emptier than a 30,000 seat stadium

[Zulu Cthulhu]

I hope some of those fanboys defending Miami actually take the time to read the pieces by Dan Wetzel detailing this situation at the U. This was institutional corruption going on for almost a decade.

 

I'd agree that if all this was supported only by the word of some felon it probably wouldn't amount to much. But many of Shapiro's allegations are supported by all types of corroborating evidence - bank statements, 1000's of pics, witnesses, etc. And that is only what has come out so far - wait until the NCAA completes its own investigation. The picture with U President Shalala holding this guy's $50,000 check is especially precious.

 

Sure Shapiro is a scumbag and a con artist. But he's staring down a 20 year federal bid and has little left to lose. He also feels completely jilted and abandoned by his former "friends." Spilling his guts now seems completely understandable under those circumstances.

 

Finally, when Warren Sapp and Luther Campbell are defending the U, you know something went down.

[RyanC883]

I didn't read the article yet--just an overview of it in my local paper (Tribune-Review), and as a Syracuse fan I naturally hate the U. But, is there any actual evidence of these alleged actions beyond the words of a man arrested for running a ponzi scheme? I don't think Donna holding the check (and I hate Donna, went to SU--now works for the U) is sufficient. He was giving a booster donation. Pictures of players at parties are sufficient either, it's not an NCAA violation to party. Any players coming forward, any checks to players that can be proven that they were written for an improper purpose.

Edited August 17, 2011 by RyanC883

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I didn't read the article yet--just an overview of it in my local paper (Tribune-Review), and as a Syracuse fan I naturally hate the U. But, is there any actual evidence of these alleged actions beyond the words of a man arrested for running a ponzi scheme? I don't think Donna holding the check (and I hate Donna, went to SU--now works for the U) is sufficient. He was giving a booster donation. Pictures of players at parties are sufficient either, it's not an NCAA violation to party. Any players coming forward, any checks to players that can be proven that they were written for an improper purpose.

 

 

Apparently, he provided a great deal of physical evidence—bank statements, photos, etc.—to the authors of the piece.

 

And actually, any and all such checks to the players would be improper under current rules.

[KD in CA]

I hope some of those fanboys defending Miami actually take the time to read the pieces by Dan Wetzel detailing this situation at the U. This was institutional corruption going on for almost a decade.

 

I'd agree that if all this was supported only by the word of some felon it probably wouldn't amount to much. But many of Shapiro's allegations are supported by all types of corroborating evidence - bank statements, 1000's of pics, witnesses, etc. And that is only what has come out so far - wait until the NCAA completes its own investigation. The picture with U President Shalala holding this guy's $50,000 check is especially precious.

 

Sure Shapiro is a scumbag and a con artist. But he's staring down a 20 year federal bid and has little left to lose. He also feels completely jilted and abandoned by his former "friends." Spilling his guts now seems completely understandable under those circumstances.

 

Finally, when Warren Sapp and Luther Campbell are defending the U, you know something went down.

 

Didn't Luther Campbell brag about doing the same stuff back in the 80s?

[1B4IDie]

Apparently, he provided a great deal of physical evidence—bank statements, photos, etc.—to the authors of the piece.

 

And actually, any and all such checks to the players would be improper under current rules.

Guys check out the article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news;_ylt=AtK8WBbGhYzAfHRfuGlr63k7MuB_?slug=cr-renegade_miami_booster_details_illicit_benefits_081611

 

All the players are on the right much of the evidence is now out in the open.

 

It's pretty much a slam dunk, there's really not a lot wiggle room here.

 

The question isn't did this actually happen.

The question is what does the NCAA do about it.

[bartshan-83]

What's the difference between Casey Anthony and the U?

 

Only one of them ain't getting the Death Penalty.

 

 

This is it. Game over. If the NCAA doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger this time, then the DP is realistically non-existent.

 

For those of you who haven't read the Yahoo article, do it. It's long but well worth your time. And additionally, click on the list of names in the box on the right of this link (from the main article as well) ALLEGATIONS. That details all of the corroborating evidence against each player. It's simply astounding how detailed they got.

 

And for those of you unfamiliar with Yahoo Sports and their role in investigative sports journalism, they have completely broken away from the field as far as competing sports news outlets are concerned. They are responsible for the Reggie Bush scandal, the OSU mess and the Oregon situation. And rumor is that they are working on Auburn and SCam Newton, which potentially has even more juice than this current story (although not comparable in breadth and scope). ESPN is entirely worthless as they have little interest in digging up dirt on those who fill their coffers. The "E" in ESPN far outweighs the "S."

 

This has been a long time coming for the Hurricanes. From Luther Campbell's embarrassment to yesterday's article, Miami has done what they've pleased for the better part of 3 decades. Now egg is on everyone's faces and the NCAA is likely backed into a corner here. Just remember this SI cover from '95:

 

Hasta la vista.

[KD in CA]

What's the difference between Casey Anthony and the U?

 

Only one of them ain't getting the Death Penalty.

 

 

This is it. Game over. If the NCAA doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to pull the trigger this time, then the DP is realistically non-existent.

 

For those of you who haven't read the Yahoo article, do it. It's long but well worth your time. And additionally, click on the list of names in the box on the right of this link (from the main article as well) ALLEGATIONS. That details all of the corroborating evidence against each player. It's simply astounding how detailed they got.

 

And for those of you unfamiliar with Yahoo Sports and their role in investigative sports journalism, they have completely broken away from the field as far as competing sports news outlets are concerned. They are responsible for the Reggie Bush scandal, the OSU mess and the Oregon situation. And rumor is that they are working on Auburn and SCam Newton, which potentially has even more juice than this current story (although not comparable in breadth and scope). ESPN is entirely worthless as they have little interest in digging up dirt on those who fill their coffers. The "E" in ESPN far outweighs the "S."

 

This has been a long time coming for the Hurricanes. From Luther Campbell's embarrassment to yesterday's article, Miami has done what they've pleased for the better part of 3 decades. Now egg is on everyone's faces and the NCAA is likely backed into a corner here. Just remember this SI cover from '95:

 

Hasta la vista.

 

 

Good to see you Bart, been hiding until college football season?

 

I for one don't think the NCAA ever hands out another death penalty considering the Chernobylike aftermath still smoldering nearly 25 years later at SMU.

[Damian]

All of these schools in trouble should just form their own league, get a TV contract and pay their players. They would have OSU, Miami, USC, UNC, UConn, Auburn, Florida State, etc.