Cities with over-extended markets...

[Frostbelt City]

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

 

Pittsburgh is #3... Wow. Maybe Bills fans are the best?!

[Rubes]

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

 

Pittsburgh is #3... Wow. Maybe Bills fans are the best?!

 

Buffalo was not in the top ten...but was ranked #11.

[OvrOfficiousJerk]

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/on-numbers/scott-thomas/2011/08/denver-is-most-overextended-market.html?ana=twt

 

Pittsburgh is #3... Wow. Maybe Bills fans are the best?!

 

If anything it's certainly quantitative proof that there pro franchises in more dire straits than Buffalo as it relates to their status in their current market. Granted, we're still overextended, but there are other markets that are a lot worse, so the "sky has fallen on Buffalo" argument isn't exactly true in a relative sense. This study validates the obvious - the whole darn country spends too much $$ on sports.

 

PS - who else noticed that Forbes considered the MLS a pro league!?

Edited August 15, 2011 by OvrOfficiousJerk

[Rubes]

If anything it's certainly quantitative proof that there pro franchises in more dire straits than Buffalo as it relates to their status in their current market. Granted, we're still overextended, but there are other markets that are a lot worse, so the "sky has fallen on Buffalo" argument isn't exactly true in a relative sense. This study validates the obvious - the whole darn country spends too much $$ on sports.

 

PS - who else noticed that Forbes considered the MLS a pro league!?

 

I did, since I was surprised to see Salt Lake City on there with two pro sports teams, and I'm presuming that a AAA baseball team does not count.

[BuffaloBill]

Buffalo is greatly aided by the fact there are only two teams. With that said the study says nothing about the passion of the fans and what they are willing to spend as a result.

[jbmar09]

I cant believe this was a business weekly that did this report and based it only on

personal incomes of individuals that live in these cities. There was no mention of

the true difference between a major market team and a small market team which is

corporate dollars. The present and future economy of the NFL is all corporate driven.

The risk of the Bills leaving Buffalo is not because Bills fans dont support the team

at the gate. The fans have supporteed this team through thick and thin......not many

teams can say that they have sold out 80-90% of their games during an 11 year playoff

drought. Our problem is that we just dont have the large corporate base in Buffalo like

other cities have. While teams like the Cowboys can charge ungodly amounts for luxury

boxes and premium seats and advertising spots (that arent shared with other owners) the

Bills are forced to charge less.....it has little to do with fannies in the seats

 

if the Bills ever leave it wont be because of lack of fan support or the relative

"salaries" of the fans in Buffalo...it will because the ungodly greed of the NFL owners and players

that can only be quenched by chasing the almighty corporate buck........and because we are a small

city when it comes to corporate power and dollars we will simply be left by the wayside.....a

casualty of the greed of others

[notwoz]

As a previous poster said, corporate dollars are what drives sports today, not just the NFL but all sports. That is Buffalo's Achilles heel. Owners are all geared to the top and bottom line -- what generates the most revenue and how much of that do they keep. The passion of the fans doesn't mean squat unless it puts dollars -- A LOT OF DOLLARS -- in the owners' pockets. Look at the list. Buffalo is No. 11 out of 85 cities, even though it has only two major league sports teams. That's not a good place to be. It would help if there were more higher paying jobs in Buffalo. But it would be better if there were a lot more companies that were willing to spend money on luxury boxes. That's the gravy train for the owners.

[OvrOfficiousJerk]

As a previous poster said, corporate dollars are what drives sports today, not just the NFL but all sports. That is Buffalo's Achilles heel. Owners are all geared to the top and bottom line -- what generates the most revenue and how much of that do they keep. The passion of the fans doesn't mean squat unless it puts dollars -- A LOT OF DOLLARS -- in the owners' pockets. Look at the list. Buffalo is No. 11 out of 85 cities, even though it has only two major league sports teams. That's not a good place to be. It would help if there were more higher paying jobs in Buffalo. But it would be better if there were a lot more companies that were willing to spend money on luxury boxes. That's the gravy train for the owners.

 

...Aaaand, we wonder why our country's credit rating got downgraded. Corporate dollars not going toward job creation, or an exportable good, or anything else that actually has more of a direct impact on a business. Ultimately, one luxury box probably might not represent much toward those ends, but looking at advertising or stadium naming rights it's easy to see how things are getting out of proportion.

[billsfan89]

This isn't very quantitative at all the Bills and Sabers get supported greatly by the fans even through tough times. That's all that matters. The teams get supported it all that matters.

[8-8 Forever?]

I cant believe this was a business weekly that did this report and based it only on

personal incomes of individuals that live in these cities. There was no mention of

the true difference between a major market team and a small market team which is

corporate dollars. The present and future economy of the NFL is all corporate driven.

The risk of the Bills leaving Buffalo is not because Bills fans dont support the team

at the gate. The fans have supporteed this team through thick and thin......not many

teams can say that they have sold out 80-90% of their games during an 11 year playoff

drought. Our problem is that we just dont have the large corporate base in Buffalo like

other cities have. While teams like the Cowboys can charge ungodly amounts for luxury

boxes and premium seats and advertising spots (that arent shared with other owners) the

Bills are forced to charge less.....it has little to do with fannies in the seats

 

if the Bills ever leave it wont be because of lack of fan support or the relative

"salaries" of the fans in Buffalo...it will because the ungodly greed of the NFL owners and players

that can only be quenched by chasing the almighty corporate buck........and because we are a small

city when it comes to corporate power and dollars we will simply be left by the wayside.....a

casualty of the greed of others

oh please you big baby. were you crying when you wrote this? You obviously hate the American system called capitalism. simple solution: just move to France or San Francisco or Greece and stand with all your socialist friends in the unemployment line. baby.

[buffalonian]

I cant believe this was a business weekly that did this report and based it only on

personal incomes of individuals that live in these cities. There was no mention of

the true difference between a major market team and a small market team which is

corporate dollars. The present and future economy of the NFL is all corporate driven.

The risk of the Bills leaving Buffalo is not because Bills fans dont support the team

at the gate. The fans have supporteed this team through thick and thin......not many

teams can say that they have sold out 80-90% of their games during an 11 year playoff

drought. Our problem is that we just dont have the large corporate base in Buffalo like

other cities have. While teams like the Cowboys can charge ungodly amounts for luxury

boxes and premium seats and advertising spots (that arent shared with other owners) the

Bills are forced to charge less.....it has little to do with fannies in the seats

 

if the Bills ever leave it wont be because of lack of fan support or the relative

"salaries" of the fans in Buffalo...it will because the ungodly greed of the NFL owners and players

that can only be quenched by chasing the almighty corporate buck........and because we are a small

city when it comes to corporate power and dollars we will simply be left by the wayside.....a

casualty of the greed of others

 

Well said

[Hplarrm]

Actually it is understanding that it is corporate dollars which drive this process is exactly the reason the Bills will probably STAY in Buffalo.

 

The massive share of the corporate dollars to be made from the Bills does not come from the huge but still relatively smaller amount of dollars which come from corporate boxes sold to local businesses. The big bucks by far comes from the corporations which own the TV networks. This is where the dollars come from and this is actually the most important customer base for making money for the NFL.

 

How will the NFL make more money? By getting more eyeballs to watch the game in order to make it even more valuable for the NFL to collect dollars from the TV networks and to attract even more networks to pay the NFL. It seems quite obvious if one gives it any thought that the next immediate frontier for the NFL which will deliver more $ to the the NFL owners is to find a way to attract more eyeball in Mexico, Toronto, Europe, Japan and the big prize China.

 

Buffalo has its highest and best value not in how many fannies are put into seats but by its direct connection to NFL history as one of the original AFL teams.

 

What the NFL is all about is entertainment and telling a grand story. More money is to be made by selling being a part of this grand story to Mexico City and the manufacturers who lust to sell beer and cars to the growing Mexico wealthy and the middle class. Is it good salesmanship to have the most recent chapter of the story be one of how the NFL abandoned one of its citys, abandoned one with rabid fans, and provides tons of visuals of people with their hopes and dreams crushed.

 

The Bills remaining in Buffalo with our rabid plucky fans and Elvis showing up at every game on TV with beautiful pictures of Niagara Falls makes for a great positive story to sell to new TV networks in other countries. The Bill abandoning Buffalo is simply bad story-telling to what is the real profit center.

 

Even a move of the Bills to Toronto presents a false economic choice. The question confronting the NFL owners is not simply one of whether Toronto or Buffalo generates more profits. The clear question to be answered is whether it is possible to have teams in BOTH Buffalo and Toronto which generate profits.

 

The Sabres/Maple Leaf example says yes having two teams in the same major sport in both towns is certainly doable under the right circumstances. Yes, they are different businesses in terms of the relative number of tickets to sale and also in terms of the historic commitment to hockey in Toronto.

 

Yet, though they are different it looks to me like the general case that as long as it is possible for the NFL to do well in Toronto that it is possible for the league to do well in both Toronto and in Buffalo. Buffalo takes advantage of a Southern Ontario market which is discrete from the Greater Toronto Area (or GTA as it is officially known). The Toronto market is in fact so large in and of itself it bears more resemblance to NYC which can maintain 2 teams or at worse Chicago where the US second city maintains a team with GB not being much further away than Toronto is from Buffalo.

 

Even further in terms of economics, to the extent one considers the smaller but still substantial cash stream of individual Bills profits, to walk away from Buffalo is to walk away from 45,000+ season tickets sold, tons of relationships already built for selling advertising and other non-transferable already existing cash streams.

 

Recreating them can be done in a new town, but there will be a cost for replicating this which provides a strong market advantage to simply staying here.

 

The IG money says the Bills stay.

 

 

 

As a previous poster said, corporate dollars are what drives sports today, not just the NFL but all sports. That is Buffalo's Achilles heel. Owners are all geared to the top and bottom line -- what generates the most revenue and how much of that do they keep. The passion of the fans doesn't mean squat unless it puts dollars -- A LOT OF DOLLARS -- in the owners' pockets. Look at the list. Buffalo is No. 11 out of 85 cities, even though it has only two major league sports teams. That's not a good place to be. It would help if there were more higher paying jobs in Buffalo. But it would be better if there were a lot more companies that were willing to spend money on luxury boxes. That's the gravy train for the owners.

[CodeMonkey]

I cant believe this was a business weekly that did this report and based it only on

personal incomes of individuals that live in these cities. There was no mention of

the true difference between a major market team and a small market team which is

corporate dollars. The present and future economy of the NFL is all corporate driven.

The risk of the Bills leaving Buffalo is not because Bills fans dont support the team

at the gate. The fans have supporteed this team through thick and thin......not many

teams can say that they have sold out 80-90% of their games during an 11 year playoff

drought. Our problem is that we just dont have the large corporate base in Buffalo like

other cities have. While teams like the Cowboys can charge ungodly amounts for luxury

boxes and premium seats and advertising spots (that arent shared with other owners) the

Bills are forced to charge less.....it has little to do with fannies in the seats

 

if the Bills ever leave it wont be because of lack of fan support or the relative

"salaries" of the fans in Buffalo...it will because the ungodly greed of the NFL owners and players

that can only be quenched by chasing the almighty corporate buck........and because we are a small

city when it comes to corporate power and dollars we will simply be left by the wayside.....a

casualty of the greed of others

Well said and I agree with you. I will also add ... so???

 

It is a business, and the main goal of any business is to make money. So, obviously, the NFL wants to put teams where they will make the most money. Why should the NFL keep a team in a city like Buffalo when more affluent cities want teams? Because Buffalo has good fan support? Because the team has been there for 50 years? Because "it's more than just business, its a passion"? All the feel good stuff is just that, feel good stuff. The almighty buck and ungodly greed will always trump fan support and passion in a capitalist society. That's just the way it is. Whatever happens after Mr. Wilson passes will be what the money grubbing NFL thinks will put the most cash in their pockets, be that staying in Buffalo or moving somewhere else. All the chest thumping, whining, and white knight wishful thinking in the world is not going to change that. C'est la vie.

[shibuya]

It screams one thing and one thing only... Pro Sports has become too expensive.

 

there are lots of top cities on that list and if these 20 cities were eliminated there wold be very few cities that could replace them with better financial conditions.

[jbmar09]

oh please you big baby. were you crying when you wrote this? You obviously hate the American system called capitalism. simple solution: just move to France or San Francisco or Greece and stand with all your socialist friends in the unemployment line. baby.

 

I call the NFL owners and players greedy and that obviously makes me a socialist ??. Wow thats a leap. And last time I looked San Francisco is not a socialist country. Actually I'm not a socialist left wing nut job or a tea party moron and I believe the Bills have every right to move out of Buffalo if the market cant support the franchise any more.....I'm not crying at all.....The Bills moving from Buffalo

is just a matter of time...the city will be unable to support the team as the league grows bigger and bigger in terms of finances. I was just pointing out that the average fan thinks the Bills will be just fine as long as attendence is steady.....unfortunately that wont be the case.

[LGB]

This conversation comes up often because RW has not made any plans to keep the team in Buffalo and the team will go to the highest bidder.

 

Blend in a depressed WNY economy and an old stadium and people have reason to be concerned.

 

This will likely come down to how the math plays out with questions like:

 

· Who buys the team and will they be committed to the area (e.g. Kelly Group)?

· How much would it then cost to move the team?

· Can/will WNY taxpayers continue to subsidize RW?

· Can/will WNY taxpayers help fund a new stadium?

· Are there other teams where the relocation math might be better (before the Bills are targeted)?

 

The Bills would likely draw better from Rochester and Syracuse if they were geographically in a better spot – like near the Thruway at Darien Lake for example – with a new multi-purpose stadium.

[KollegeStudnet]

I did, since I was surprised to see Salt Lake City on there with two pro sports teams, and I'm presuming that a AAA baseball team does not count.

 

This article got me thinking...when I noticed it having Salt Lake having 2 teams...

 

I thought Utah-Salt Lake had only one Pro team...but, they have MLS Real of Salt Lake--in which I say... U.S. soccer shouldn't be labeled pro!

 

This article also got me thinking...Utah's economy is one of the best out of every state...According to Forbes magazine Utah is the #1 state in the U.S. for fostering business growth. Also, a keynote is Utah's economy increased annually in the past five years---in a down economy. Plus, the average Income In Utah is around 54,100 USD per year according to 2010/2011 Salary Survey.

 

Forbes has Salt Lake in the top 10 cities for growth at "6"....

 

Milken Institute has the 2010 best ranking economic cities...ranks Salt Lake at "49"...Buffalo at "69"

When I reread this article, I noticed it's based on "total personal income", but it fails to show how pro teams excell money wise... from corporate support!

Edited August 17, 2011 by KollegeStudnet

[RyanC883]

This study is a bit suspect. In Pittsburgh the Steelers always sell out, the Pens have a huge waiting list, you can't get tickets to Pitt basketball, and when the Pirates were at the top of the NL Central games were selling out days in advance. Clearly if Pgh is not "overstretched" I question whether the other cities like Denver, Buffalo, Cleveland, Green Bay etc. are. If they are looking at only the "city" and not the entire "metro area" including the suburbs and exburbs, that could account for the seeming flaw in the study.

 

Also, I belive that Texas, not Utah, is #1 in the nation for job growth.

Edited August 17, 2011 by RyanC883

[Dr. Trooth]

I don't know about this. But, a couple of things. Buffalo only has two professional sports teams. The Bills, like Greenbay and New England are really a regional franchise... which includes a good portion of the Toronto, Rochester, Syracuse, Binghamton, Auburn, Utica, and Albany markets. The Sabres are regional too, but not as far reaching as the Bills, obviously. If Buffalo had one more professional team, they'd probably be in the top three or four, I would guess. Thus, no major league baseball team and also probably why the Braves moved to San Diego and which are now the Clippers.

 

I'd say for those cities that have 4 or more pro teams, except perhaps Dallas, New York, Chicago, Frisco, and LA would have a hard time sustaining them. And, push come to shove one of those pro teams would take the hit... and NFL teams would be the least likely to take the hit... unless it's in LA.

[FightinIrishBills]

oh please you big baby. were you crying when you wrote this? You obviously hate the American system called capitalism. simple solution: just move to France or San Francisco or Greece and stand with all your socialist friends in the unemployment line. baby.

 

And...ignore. Your overwhelmingly negative posts are barely tolerable but foolish ad hominem attacks are not.