Levitre/Wood/Urbik

[The Big Cat]

So far, Urbik has been very poor! The OL is in need of a serious upgrade.

 

Ugh. Three of the five starters are young, are gaining lots of experience, show great promise and hold their own quite well.

 

Let's blow the whole thing up so we can get this serious upgrade.

 

Get real, buddy.

[cage]

Or...actually sign a player who is a starter and not soley rely on waiver wire acquistions. We have have five waiver-wire guys on the OL and two of them start. The other three are key back-ups. Building an OL based on waivers is not a commitment to building a line, it's throwing bodies at positions and hope one sticks. Great teams usually have great trenches.

 

One can only hope Buddy is waiting for a team to make a salary cap cut or to cut a deal with a team for some quality RG and at least some OT depth. Urbik is a project, Wrotto and Howard are JAGS and Pears is adequate. Depth behind Bell doesn't exist. The drafted guys are either not ready or not any good (read Wang). It's a damn shame to pull the best center we have in 11 years because our RG is so brutal. If we can spend $4 mil a year on a gadget/wildcat guy who plays a handful of downs, why not spend some of the coin we are saving with the Lee Evans dump on a quality starting RG who plays every offensive down?

 

Great post... great finish!!

 

Particularly if they want to make every effort to end the QB carousel and give Fitz every chance at being successful (in his contract year), they should do exactly what you're suggesting!

 

Last year, the OLine played "alright". They werent all-pro by any means, but the OL isnt what lost us games. It was the DL and our Run D.

 

Nix dedicated this offseason to fixing the Defensive Front 7, and it looks like it has been adequately addressed.

 

Just as we saw a primarily Defensive draft this year, I expect to see a primarily Offensive draft next year. When you are building through the draft, a full team rebuild cant be achieved in 1 or even 2 years. Something will be pushed back to later.

 

IMO, it's not that Nix doesnt want to address the OL, it's more that there were a lot of other holes that needed to be addressed as well. And we were in the perfect position to build the Front 7, which was TOP priority this offseason as they were MUCH worse than our OL.

 

Also to his credit, Nix/Whaley did identify Clabo as a target and made a big push for him. So much so, that he actually had to consider uprooting his family and leaving a winning team. However, in the end, Clabo decided to stay home. As disappointed as I am that we lost out on Clabo, it's not as if the FO is ignoring the problem.

 

I'll give Nix another year to make needed improvements before I start losing faith.

 

Go Bills!

 

He needs to address this sooner (as in this year)... They have to see what Fitz has in order to decide whether he should be signed for long term money, or we have to address QB position and the rebuilding takes a step back. I would hate to see us reach the end of this year and have to go on faith that Fitz could be good if only we had the OL fixed. It needs to be fixed now so that the season can be a clean evaluation of what we should do at QB... I don't see how this issue can be kept hanging?

[MikeSpeed]

Sorry, but that's not the right answer. When you are tens of millions under the cap, just did a salary dump to get further under the cap, you don't expose your QB to harm for sake of some veteran depth. Urbik has had a brutal camp. Maybe he's a prospect but he couldn't see the field on a bad Pittsburgh OL and I don't want to lose our QB to guy who's on-the-job training begins with not getting pushed around and turned around every other play. They tried to get Clabo, good. Just because it was a swing and a miss doesn't mean you stop there. One injury on this line and it's a lost year of little progress for the sake of some quality depth. You can still build through the draft, but filling in some key positions is just smart management (Like replacing Poz) so I got to believe we are not going into this season with Urbik starting at RG and Wang/Wrotto our next two choices at OT.

 

Why did the FO not attempt to get someone else after Clabo took a pass? Obviously they see there is a weekness at right tackle. It just doesn't make sense to not improve even if it is for just one year.

I look at the team and the biggest most glaring need is the right side of the o-line. That's 2 guys. I have read many here saying that we are still another year away. Well what positions other than those 2 need serious upgrades? If you are thinking like me and you belive that 2 offensive linemen might be the difference between playoffs or not, then you get those FA's even if its for one year. You can still draft 2 linemen next year can't you?

[DrDawkinstein]

 

He needs to address this sooner (as in this year)... They have to see what Fitz has in order to decide whether he should be signed for long term money, or we have to address QB position and the rebuilding takes a step back. I would hate to see us reach the end of this year and have to go on faith that Fitz could be good if only we had the OL fixed. It needs to be fixed now so that the season can be a clean evaluation of what we should do at QB... I don't see how this issue can be kept hanging?

 

Fitz has been good behind last year's line, and looked promising behind the current line Saturday night.

 

I think they already know what they have in Fitz, and that we should extend him either way.

 

To address Green Lightning's statement that you agreed with... What if there just simply ISNT anyone better available? Looking at the list of FAs currently on the market, I dont see any major upgrades, and Im guessing neither do Whaley/Nix.

 

Maybe/Probably after cuts, we'll look to bring in some help.

 

But PLEASE UNDERSTAND, unless a FA is an obvious, long term solution (like Clabo) the Bills are not going to go out and sign guys just to sign more players. They are not going to start throwing money/bodies at the problem for 1 year, when we'd be better served to draft our own guy next year. Buddy has been through rebuilds before. He knows you have to properly build through the draft, you are going to have to take your lumps (and the better draft pick that comes along with them).

 

Why did the FO not attempt to get someone else after Clabo took a pass? Obviously they see there is a weekness at right tackle. It just doesn't make sense to not improve even if it is for just one year.

I look at the team and the biggest most glaring need is the right side of the o-line. That's 2 guys. I have read many here saying that we are still another year away. Well what positions other than those 2 need serious upgrades? If you are thinking like me and you belive that 2 offensive linemen might be the difference between playoffs or not, then you get those FA's even if its for one year. You can still draft 2 linemen next year can't you?

 

Ok, I'll play along... Who?

 

What 2, or even 1, Free Agent OT is going to improve the unit so greatly?

 

And yes, if you are trying to build a CORE of drafted players, it makes perfect sense to not panic and overpay for a 1-year bum (see: Cornell Green). Buddy tried that path, and look what we got for it...

 

We talked to multiple FA LBs this year, because there were ultiple guys we thought could be solutions. Had there been more OTs available than Clabo, Im sure the Bills would've talked to them.

 

Sit tight, take your lumps, and continue to build through the draft as he has so far. If our next draft addresses offense like this past draft addressed Defense, we'll be looking good next year and THEN be ready to supplement via FA to get over the hump.

Edited August 15, 2011 by DrDareustein

[ganesh]

What reluctance? The D was a bigger priority. You can bet your a$$ he wanted at least one more tackle as well. Just didn't work out that way.

Agreed 100%...When you give up 200+ yards in half your games, you better start fixing what is broken.....and the DL was broken and a blue chip prospect available....

[DrDawkinstein]

Agreed 100%...When you give up 200+ yards in half your games, you better start fixing what is broken.....and the DL was broken and a blue chip prospect available....

 

Yep.

 

Our OL is our "biggest problem" right now, ONLY because Nix spent this offseason addressing our PREVIOUS biggest problem. It might only be baby steps right now, but they are still steps in the right direction.

[C.Biscuit97]

Levitre is going to be a great guard and I love Wood at center. Bell has gotten a lot of unfair criticism but I feel at worst he is an average LT with a huge ceiling. Pears is a stopgap but RT is a position that isn't as critical IMO. I think we are very close to having a good, young oline. Aldo, Fitz will help the line out a ton as well.

[Meark]

Urbik didn't play bad Saturday. 1 bad play. 1 block that got shed by urlacher. Other than that, he played just fine.

 

It was the first game but I thought Urbik looked like Humpty Dumpty out there.. You should watch again as there was definitely more than one bad play. He seemed to be a little lost at times. I would say he was the weak link on the line as Pears seemed to do ok.

[JÂy RÛßeÒ]

I'm not blaming the FO for not fixing every hole this off-season and not having a pro-bowler at every position. My point was that given what we have on the roster currently, having Hangartner at Center and Wood at Guard is a better option than having Wood at Center and Urbik at Guard.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'm not blaming the FO for not fixing every hole this off-season and not having a pro-bowler at every position. My point was that given what we have on the roster currently, having Hangartner at Center and Wood at Guard is a better option than having Wood at Center and Urbik at Guard.

 

Yes, thats definitely an option. And one Im sure the coaches are considering as they work and evaluate their way through the preseason.

 

The good news is, barring injury, the option will be there if we need to switch up before week 1.

[billsfan89]

Hangman will Be the starting RG for this team this year. He isn't the best interior lineman (He is about an average NFL interior lineman) but he can anchor the position at a much more effective level then Urbik or Reinhart could.

[Sisyphean Bills]

So they can't evaluate OLineman talent because they whiffed on a LB in the same draft they acquired Wood and Levitre?

 

Ah yes, I follow your logic.

They've been whiffing for at least a decade, Cat. Position is largely irrelevant.

 

(Besides it was meant as a joke. Get it?)

[shoretalk]

Great points. I fear Buddy waited too long to fortify the OL this year and any pickups that we are likely to get are going to be Cornell Green-like players.

 

Back to he initial question:

 

Is Levitre-Wood-Urbik > Levitre-Hang-Wood? We need to give Urbik more time and hopefully he comes arround.

 

I fully understand Buddy's "building through the draft" philosophy but in the meantime we are being subject to a painful 3-4 year rebuild that will probably take more like 5 years and that assumes we start hitting on our draft picks.

 

So far Buddy has brought in Wang (draft 5th round), Howard (UDFA), Green (FA), Wrotto (waivers), Urbik (practice squad raid), Pears (waivers), Rhinehart (waivers), Hairston (draft 5th round) and a few other UDFAs. His reluctance to improve the OL via drafting a top prospect, signing a legitimate NFL starter via free agency, or by trade is baffling.

Frankly, Buddy's first priority with the draft was to start building a defense since DEFENSE is a key to winning football. I do not think he was reluctant to draft OL (Wang and Hairston) but getting the right D players with the right attitudes meant more in the long term for this team. Hairston (By the way, he was our FOURTH PICK not the 5th as you noted) received some great reviews from the draft guru's and could be a gem (Could be but let's remember it takes time for OL to develop into pro starters much less pro stars) but Wang does seem limp out there but let's give him this preseason to show something.

 

As for the others you name, that's how teams find players with an understanding that most of these guys won't succeed. Pears has not looked bad at RT (again, average but he has not embarrassed himself although like most average players he makes some mistakes out there) and the coaching staff seems really high on Urbik (I didn't see any of that 'average' or better play on Saturday night but am willing to wait this one out.). Green we all know was a mistake but the Bills didn't hang on to him ... they let him go once they knew he wasn't going to be the guy.

 

I am thinking that we may go into the season with Wood and Hang switching positions and that alone makes us stronger up the middle. Wood can take on the NT's more effectively than Hang.

 

We shall see ... it's week one, Fitz and the starting RB's had time and holes to work so I want to see what Week Two brings us.

[The Big Cat]

They've been whiffing for at least a decade, Cat. Position is largely irrelevant.

 

(Besides it was meant as a joke. Get it?)

 

Yeah yeah yeah.

[bigc14120]

If Urbik can't do it, Rheinhart will get a shot. Rheinhart played well last year for the few games he was in, that is the reason he is still here. And, he makes a lot less than Hangartner. Hangartner will stay, however, as they need to have the flexibility of an experience lineman when injuries occur. (and they will)

[Bob in STL]

What reluctance? The D was a bigger priority. You can bet your a$$ he wanted at least one more tackle as well. Just didn't work out that way.

 

 

I clearly stated the reluctance. If he wanted to draft a tackle sooner he could have.

 

Frankly, Buddy's first priority with the draft was to start building a defense since DEFENSE is a key to winning football. I do not think he was reluctant to draft OL (Wang and Hairston) but getting the right D players with the right attitudes meant more in the long term for this team. Hairston (By the way, he was our FOURTH PICK not the 5th as you noted) received some great reviews from the draft guru's and could be a gem (Could be but let's remember it takes time for OL to develop into pro starters much less pro stars) but Wang does seem limp out there but let's give him this preseason to show something.

 

As for the others you name, that's how teams find players with an understanding that most of these guys won't succeed. Pears has not looked bad at RT (again, average but he has not embarrassed himself although like most average players he makes some mistakes out there) and the coaching staff seems really high on Urbik (I didn't see any of that 'average' or better play on Saturday night but am willing to wait this one out.). Green we all know was a mistake but the Bills didn't hang on to him ... they let him go once they knew he wasn't going to be the guy.

 

I am thinking that we may go into the season with Wood and Hang switching positions and that alone makes us stronger up the middle. Wood can take on the NT's more effectively than Hang.

 

We shall see ... it's week one, Fitz and the starting RB's had time and holes to work so I want to see what Week Two brings us.

 

Concur with building the defense first.

 

It is the OL depth, or lack there of, that really concerns me.

[jwhit34]

You can't ignore that they took Wood and Levitre in the first 2 rounds in '09. Guard is easier to fill than OT, between Urbik, Hangartner and Reinhart they'll be okay. They should target QB and OT in the first 2 rounds of the '12 draft and hopefully pick up another LB in the middle rounds.

[Dragonborn10]

exactly... you dont get 20 picks every year. they have chosen to re-build through the draft, and that forces them to chip away at one weak spot at a time. given the choice id take an improvment on the defense first all day. a weak offensive line can be masked with an effective play caller, which i consider cg to be.

Yes you don't get twenty but if you trade down you can secure an extra pick from time to time...Don't get me wrong I like Dareus but there were several DL that could have been taken in the top 10 that have just a good a chance to be great. Trading down several spots could have landed them a third or even a second that could have been used on an OT.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Or...actually sign a player who is a starter and not soley rely on waiver wire acquistions. We have have five waiver-wire guys on the OL and two of them start. The other three are key back-ups. Building an OL based on waivers is not a commitment to building a line, it's throwing bodies at positions and hope one sticks. Great teams usually have great trenches.

 

One can only hope Buddy is waiting for a team to make a salary cap cut or to cut a deal with a team for some quality RG and at least some OT depth. Urbik is a project, Wrotto and Howard are JAGS and Pears is adequate. Depth behind Bell doesn't exist. The drafted guys are either not ready or not any good (read Wang). It's a damn shame to pull the best center we have in 11 years because our RG is so brutal. If we can spend $4 mil a year on a gadget/wildcat guy who plays a handful of downs, why not spend some of the coin we are saving with the Lee Evans dump on a quality starting RG who plays every offensive down?

I'm gonna post this again:

 

"The New York Giants for several years had the best offensive line in football. The last two years they've aged and gotten somewhat less effective but during their 2007 Super Bowl season and a few seasons on either side of 2007, they were widely considered the best offensive line in the NFL.

 

Starting LT David Diehl was a 5th round pick. LG Rich Seubert and C Shaun O'Hara were undrafted. RG Chris Snee was a 2nd rounder and RT Kareem McKenzie was a 3rd rounder.

 

Not exactly investing heavily in the offensive line.

 

The infamous Hogs O-line of the early 80s consisted of LT George Starke, an 11th rounder, LG Russ Grimm, a 3rd rounder, C Jeff Bostic who was undrafted, RG Mark May, a 1st rounder, and RT Joe Jacoby who was also undrafted. They were the best offensive line of the first half of the 1980s.

 

The offensive line on the most recent Super Bowl edition of the Cheatriots* consisted of LT Matt Light, a 2nd rounder, LG JoeAndruzzi, who was undrafted, C Dan Koppen, a 5th rounder, RG Russ Hochstein, a 5th rounder, and RT Tom Ashworth, who was undrafted.

 

That's 1 first rounder and 2 second rounders, and 1 third rounder for a total of 4 players taken in the first three rounds. Those same lines featured 6 undrafted starters.

 

I could go on and on. In recent memory there have been many excellent offensive lines which consisted of mid-round picks and undrafted free agents.

 

The Bills have had numerous outstanding O-linemen without any pedigree. Kent Hull was undrafted. John Davis was an 11th rounder. Tim Vogler was a undrafted. House Ballard was an 11th rounder, Donnie Green was a 5th rounder.

 

O-line is one of the hardest positions to scout for and also one of the positional groups where guys who are tough and smart and are well-coached can develop into good players and an even better unit."

I've seen enough of Hangman at center. It's simple, the guy to play RG probably is not on the team.

 

I'm not blaming the FO for not fixing every hole this off-season and not having a pro-bowler at every position. My point was that given what we have on the roster currently, having Hangartner at Center and Wood at Guard is a better option than having Wood at Center and Urbik at Guard.

And I'll post this again:

 

People keep thinking that Wood might have to move back to guard to plug the perceived problem there. This scenario usually consists of Hangartner moving back into the starting lineup as the center.

 

What everyone seems to forget is that Geoff Hangartner has played guard in his career… he started at guard in Carolina when Ryan Kahlil was installed as the starting center.

 

In other words, if Urbik fails at right guard, then Chad Rinehart gets his shot. If Rinehart fails, Hangartner will be given a shot at right guard.

 

A lot of knee-jerk, panic button reactions about our offensive line.

 

The Bills resolved to fix the defense this year because the defense was the biggest problem.

 

It's not really clear at this early juncture how much of a problem the O-line may or may not be, IMO.

 

While they will not be elite, they were average last year so I fail to see how they will be worse.

 

 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

If Hangartner got overpowered at center, why would you want to move him to guard? He has value at center because of his high football IQ. Seems like moving him to guard emphasizes his weaknesses and covers his strengths rather than the opposite. That's why we talk about using last year's alignment. I saw another poster say they heard Gailey on the radio saying that it's a consideration, and he's not worried about getting practice reps if they do go that way because the guys already know those positions. I'm expecting Levite/Hanger/Wood