Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 If Buffet addressed total taxation, then I would as well. But since his rant specifically talks about federal income taxes, then it should be addressed in that context. A logical question is how did Buffet pay 6% less than people in his bracket did? I'm guessing that extra $2.5 million in tax savings buys pretty good tax advice. As for the idiotic assertion that the rich pay less, you're smart enough to understand that a tax rate is not the same thing as taxes paid. If your objective is to maximize revenues, you need to either widen the pool of payers or have people generate more income for you to tax. Simply raising tax rates on the rich will not accomplish either one of the above. But it will win you votes (including yours, I imagine) But you guys argue it is all about the percentage, that poor people pay nothing. When in fact they do. So you want to up the taxes on them so they pay their fair share is what your side argues. Only they are are already paying a comparable percentage when all taxes are factored in. You are smart enough to understand that.
Rob's House Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 This is old news and it's an apples to oranges comparison because most of what this !@#$ makes is taxed as capital gains rather than income. If you want to discuss the merits of restructuring the capital gains taxes in a way that will increase govt revenues without adversely affecting economic growth, then do it in the proper context. When I read the opening post I was surprised Dave (who ironically enough ripped someone else for economic ignorance - some comic relief there) wasn't the OP.
3rdnlng Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 But you guys argue it is all about the percentage, that poor people pay nothing. When in fact they do. So you want to up the taxes on them so they pay their fair share is what your side argues. Only they are are already paying a comparable percentage when all taxes are factored in. You are smart enough to understand that. Yes that pesky Earned Income Tax. Oh wait, that's a credit, not a tax. Do you know if they have to pay taxes on Food Stamps and Section 8 benefits?
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 Yes that pesky Earned Income Tax. Oh wait, that's a credit, not a tax. Do you know if they have to pay taxes on Food Stamps and Section 8 benefits? Do they pay a gas tax? Are there any other taxes they pay that no one factors in? And yes Rob it is the capital gains. I said so in a later post.
Rob's House Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) Do they pay a gas tax? Are there any other taxes they pay that no one factors in? And yes Rob it is the capital gains. I said so in a later post. After about three posts I wanted to eat my own brain. So if you know, why are you carrying on this Conneresque argument rather than suggesting how exactly you would propose to adjust capital gains taxes for the wealthy without hurting the not so wealthy, and how capital losses would be treated so as not to discourage investment? Edited August 15, 2011 by Rob's House
....lybob Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Do they pay a gas tax? Are there any other taxes they pay that no one factors in? And yes Rob it is the capital gains. I said so in a later post. real tax rates for incomes of $20,000 to $500,000 are around 40% My link Tax rate on the super rich is lower because they earn most of their money from capital gains and dividends
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 After about three posts I wanted to eat my own brain. So if you know, why are you carrying on this Conneresque argument rather than suggesting how exactly you would propose to adjust capital gains taxes for the wealthy without hurting the not so wealthy, and how capital losses would be treated so as not to discourage investment? Honestly I do not know what percentage they should be set at. My point is that it is disingenuous to say that the poor pay no taxes and the rich are over burdened. This fallacy is almost a given among many that post here. And yet when confronted with facts, they would rather quibble about how the argument is presented.
GG Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 But you guys argue it is all about the percentage, that poor people pay nothing. When in fact they do. So you want to up the taxes on them so they pay their fair share is what your side argues. Only they are are already paying a comparable percentage when all taxes are factored in. You are smart enough to understand that. But they're not paying a comparable percentage even if you do factor the payroll taxes in, because 50% of the payroll tax is paid by the employer, while 100% of the payroll tax is paid by sole proprietors (small business owners). The folly of high taxes on capital transactions is that those sales are discretionary, and by raising taxes you will slow down the number of transactions and total revenues will drop. Inverse happened under Clinton. Everyone loves to point out to the balanced budget in his last term, but that happened only because capital gains receipts skyrocketed after he lowered the rates. Amazing how that works. "My side" argues that the most effective taxation is a low marginal federal tax rate on everybody - maybe a progressive split - 12% below $50K and 20% on everybody else. No dedctions.
3rdnlng Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Do they pay a gas tax? Are there any other taxes they pay that no one factors in? And yes Rob it is the capital gains. I said so in a later post. If they have a car and they use it I'm pretty sure that they would pay a gas tax. If they live in NY they would be paying $.69 a gallon in State and Federal taxes. So, let's say they use 15 gallons a week it would mean that their taxes on gas would be $10.35 per week. Think what the rich have to spend on gas to fuel their limos and Hummers, all while losing their tax breaks for their private jets. Life just isn't fair. The poor only have to spend $10.35 a week on gas taxes while the rich have to spend alot more.
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 But they're not paying a comparable percentage even if you do factor the payroll taxes in, because 50% of the payroll tax is paid by the employer, while 100% of the payroll tax is paid by sole proprietors (small business owners). The folly of high taxes on capital transactions is that those sales are discretionary, and by raising taxes you will slow down the number of transactions and total revenues will drop. Inverse happened under Clinton. Everyone loves to point out to the balanced budget in his last term, but that happened only because capital gains receipts skyrocketed after he lowered the rates. Amazing how that works. "My side" argues that the most effective taxation is a low marginal federal tax rate on everybody - maybe a progressive split - 12% below $50K and 20% on everybody else. No deductions. I would support something like that. No other taxes though. No gas tax, nothing. Doubt that would be revenue neutral and tons of accountants would be out of a job, but still, sounds fair. I guess I wasn't totally fair with the "your side" crack. If they have a car and they use it I'm pretty sure that they would pay a gas tax. If they live in NY they would be paying $.69 a gallon in State and Federal taxes. So, let's say they use 15 gallons a week it would mean that their taxes on gas would be $10.35 per week. Think what the rich have to spend on gas to fuel their limos and Hummers, all while losing their tax breaks for their private jets. Life just isn't fair. The poor only have to spend $10.35 a week on gas taxes while the rich have to spend alot more. Brother, the percentages aren't even close when you factor in total taxation.
ieatcrayonz Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 But you guys argue it is all about the percentage, that poor people pay nothing. When in fact they do. So you want to up the taxes on them so they pay their fair share is what your side argues. Only they are are already paying a comparable percentage when all taxes are factored in. You are smart enough to understand that. Whoa man then maybe you like shouldn't have like totally started the thread with a rant from that old dude about FEDERAL taxes if you like totally wanted to talk about total taxes. Maybe you ate all the Cheetoes and needed a way to vent?
3rdnlng Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 I would support something like that. No other taxes though. No gas tax, nothing. Doubt that would be revenue neutral and tons of accountants would be out of a job, but still, sounds fair. I guess I wasn't totally fair with the "your side" crack. Brother, the percentages aren't even close when you factor in total taxation. I was being a smartass. Regardless, the truly poor certainly pay for things like gas tax and sales tax but it is more than made up by the benefits they receive such as earned income credit, food stamps, section 8 housing, etc. The "Fair Tax" is the way to go. I'm not talking about a VAT either. Straight out sales tax and dump all the income taxes etc. It can be done without increasing any taxes on the poor too. Determine a reasonable subsistance level for a family and rebate the Fair Tax paid up to that level. Tax consumption, not earnings.
KD in CA Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 It amazes me that people are still so gullible about statistics and the ability to manipulate them that they would get worked up over a throw-away sentence like that. Not to mention the absurdity of using Warren Buffet as a legitimate example of anyone other than Warren Buffet.
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 I was being a smartass. Regardless, the truly poor certainly pay for things like gas tax and sales tax but it is more than made up by the benefits they receive such as earned income credit, food stamps, section 8 housing, etc. The "Fair Tax" is the way to go. I'm not talking about a VAT either. Straight out sales tax and dump all the income taxes etc. It can be done without increasing any taxes on the poor too. Determine a reasonable subsistance level for a family and rebate the Fair Tax paid up to that level. Tax consumption, not earnings. The truly poor I grant you. The moderately poor, not so much. The middle class is surely paying a higher share than the rich. That is whacked. And yet, according to conservatives, they pay nothing. That is my point.
LeviF Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 The truly poor I grant you. The moderately poor, not so much. The middle class is surely paying a higher share than the rich. That is whacked. And yet, according to conservatives, they pay nothing. That is my point. We are the hollow men We are the stuffed men Leaning together Headpiece filled with straw. Alas! Our dried voices, when We whisper together Are quiet and meaningless As wind in dry grass Or rats' feet over broken glass In our dry cellar Shape without form, shade without colour, Paralysed force, gesture without motion
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 We are the hollow men We are the stuffed men Leaning together Headpiece filled with straw. Alas! Our dried voices, when We whisper together Are quiet and meaningless As wind in dry grass Or rats' feet over broken glass In our dry cellar Shape without form, shade without colour, Paralysed force, gesture without motion Are you implying I am creating a strawman?
ieatcrayonz Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 Are you implying I am creating a strawman? If you had any straw I'm sure you would have smoked it by now.
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 If you had any straw I'm sure you would have smoked it by now. It doesn't work that way. One of many things you do not understand. You used to be better at this.
Rob's House Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 It doesn't work that way. One of many things you do not understand. You used to be better at this. This retort is quite applicable to most of your posts in this thread.
Booster4324 Posted August 15, 2011 Author Posted August 15, 2011 This retort is quite applicable to most of your posts in this thread. Really? How so? Do you dispute my point that middle class and lower income pay more taxes than the rich? No one else is really. Simple matter is they cannot. Do you deny that Republicans use the no federal taxes as a talking point?
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