Fox Merriman article plus a repeat of Nix' philosophy

[John Cocktosten]

wow so you advocate spenidng the 9th pick of the draft on a right tackle . I am so sick of the buddy bashing . Can we please see how spliller, troupe carrington ect proform this year before we trash his first draft.

 

I'm glad that you're sick of it but up until now he's done nothing outside of drafting Dareus (who fell into his lap) to make me think he's going to be any different from past disasters.

-Cornell Green signing.

-Kelsay extension.

-Drafting Spiller when you have FJ and Lynch and a terrible Oline.

-Failure to SERIOUSLY address either tackle spot in two drafts and FA periods.

-Failure to SERIOUSLY upgrade the outside pass rush in two drafts and FA periods.

-Instilling the belief in some fans (you) that it will take 3-4 years to rebuild when teams like KC, TB, GB and the Jets have all done it in 1 year.

 

Same ol same ol at OBD. Buddy, wash, rinse, repeat...

[BADOLBILZ]

The Bills were as bad as any team in the NFL last year and it wasn't because of Fitz. There was not one solid contributor to last year's team out of Nix's first draft class. Teams like KC, NE and TB all had 50 plus starts from rookies last year.

 

Any other team would consider last years draft class very disappointing. Here, it's just the norm.

 

It's really easy to preach patience, but the table was set for the rookies they drafted last year.

 

Spiller is a RB. RB's routinely hit the ground running as rookies. Instead he had no impact despite being the first back taken. The Bills are so excited about him that they went out and signed a kick returning gimmick player to a significant 4 year deal. Not looking like Spiller is going to be the next Marshall Faulk or Chris Johnson anymore, is it?

 

Troupe and Carrington couldn't even get snaps on the worst run stopping defense in the NFL. Enough said about their contribution.

 

They did get a nice contribution from Moats and a few UDFA's but that was a LOADED draft. Teams all over the league got big time results from their rookies. The Bills were playing catch-up coming into that draft and considering how high they were drafting the results have been disappointing.

[jcbillsfan]

I'm glad that you're sick of it but up until now he's done nothing outside of drafting Dareus (who fell into his lap) to make me think he's going to be any different from past disasters.

-Cornell Green signing.

-Kelsay extension.

-Drafting Spiller when you have FJ and Lynch and a terrible Oline.

-Failure to SERIOUSLY address either tackle spot in two drafts and FA periods.

-Failure to SERIOUSLY upgrade the outside pass rush in two drafts and FA periods.

-Instilling the belief in some fans (you) that it will take 3-4 years to rebuild when teams like KC, TB, GB and the Jets have all done it in 1 year.

 

Same ol same ol at OBD. Buddy, wash, rinse, repeat...

Took a shot with green , remember last year there was very little movement in free agency, by the all team miss with free agnets

not sure what the probelm with kelsey's extention. As they upgrade the roster he can be cut at anytime.

Lets see what Spiller does this year before making judgements

again they just went after the best right tackle available in free agency. They drafted a solid prospect in this draft. Seems like an effort is being made

Outide linebacker. hmm they signed a former all pro olb. whom from all accounts is looling very ggod.

Greenbay has been a solid team for oh like 15 years. Ans the Jets have been good since Parcells had them .

seems to me we played pretty even with kc on the road last year, not sure i see that much different in the teams except we have to play the jets and pats for 4 games

T.b will see ,can they make the playoffs before we call it a turn around

Edited August 6, 2011 by jcbillsfan

[thewildrabbit]

http://forums.twobil...ost__p__2202768

 

Christ, Harvey. In the post above you freely admit to reading articles stating the Bills offered Clabo what they offered Derrick Dockery. And now you're asking me for links? Nice.

 

I should have just linked to your own words in the first place. Looks like you're just arguing with yourself on this one.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Sok, just keep replying over and over...I read it a day or so ago, scuse me if I got the players mixed up...jeez

 

Anyway, all that link did was post hearsay ""Some had pegged the Buffalo Bills offer as being in the neighborhood of $7 million per year"" Wth is Some?

 

Speaking of Dockery and Walker at least they both started and played full seasons, unlike Cornell Green. Stating that, it looks like Marv Levy did better in his first year as GM in both the draft and free agent signings.

 

 

Like I stated earlier the season is right around the corner and the world will see if this man is worthy or not.

[Orton's Arm]

Maybe we wouldn't have to b*tch and complain about signing someone if Nix chose an Offensive tackle before the 4th round. Instead he chose to go with a scatback in the first when you already had two very capable RBs on the roster.

 

The Superbowl winning Packers have selected OTs in the 1st round the last two drafts and had a 7th round rookie RB start in the playoffs and Super Bowl.

 

The Bills were 7-9 in '08 before Buddy took over. The Packers were 6-10. How quickly can you rebuild?

 

Their is Buddy's philosophy and then there is a winning philosophy.

Not all 7-9 or 6-10 teams are created equal.

 

The team Buddy inherited had only two long-term answers in its front-7: Kyle Williams and Poz. Everyone else was either getting on in years, not very good, or both. There were also problems with the defensive secondary.

 

On offense, there was (and is) no long-term answer at QB, no TE, and holes on the OL. Not many building block players there except for Levitre, Wood, Stevie Johnson, and maybe Bell.

 

Compare that to the Packers. Arguably, Aaron Rodgers is playing better than any other QB in the league. That alone is worth much more than everything Nix inherited from the previous regime. With Aaron Rodgers plus whatever other good, young players the Packers may have had during their 6-10 season, they obviously had a much better core than the one Nix inherited.

[John Cocktosten]

Took a show with green , remember last year there was very little movement in free agency, by the all team miss with free agnets

not sure what the probelm with kelsey's extention. As they upgrade the roster he can be cut at anytime.

Lets see what Spiller does this year before making judgements

again they just went after the best right tackle available in free agency. They drafted a solid prospect in this draft. Seems like an effort is being made

Outide linebacker. hmm they signed a former all pro olb. whom from all accounts is looling very ggod.

Greenbay has been a solid team for oh like 15 years. Ans the Jets have been good since Parcells had them .

seems to me we played pretty even with kc on the road last year, not sure i see that much different in the teams except we have to play the jets and pats for 4 games

T.b will see ,can they make the playoffs before we call it a turn around

 

The Jets lost 12 games in 07. They turned it around in one year. Same for the packer who lost 10 game in 08. Made the playoffs the next year.

 

Merriman hasn't been a pro bowler in 4 years. He's played in a total of 5 game over that time. Oh, he's looking good after 5 preseason practices? Talk to me in week 8.

 

Drafting tackles in the 4-5th rounds is not addressing the Offensive line.

 

Kelsay is still on the team. D Ware, Harrison, Woodley, Phillips, Dumerville are his contemporaries. See the problem?

 

TB went from 3 wins to 10 wins. I'd call that a pretty good turn around. BTW, they picked up their rookie RB as an undrafted FA who was cut in training camp by the Titans.

 

I just keep reading excuse after excuse. Glad to see that you're happy with mediocrity.

Edited August 6, 2011 by John Cocktosten

[Orton's Arm]

Any other team would consider last years draft class very disappointing. Here, it's just the norm.

 

It's really easy to preach patience, but the table was set for the rookies they drafted last year.

 

Spiller is a RB. RB's routinely hit the ground running as rookies. Instead he had no impact despite being the first back taken. The Bills are so excited about him that they went out and signed a kick returning gimmick player to a significant 4 year deal. Not looking like Spiller is going to be the next Marshall Faulk or Chris Johnson anymore, is it?

 

Troupe and Carrington couldn't even get snaps on the worst run stopping defense in the NFL. Enough said about their contribution.

 

They did get a nice contribution from Moats and a few UDFA's but that was a LOADED draft. Teams all over the league got big time results from their rookies. The Bills were playing catch-up coming into that draft and considering how high they were drafting the results have been disappointing.

I share your concern about the Spiller pick. Both because of questions about whether Spiller will be a good player, and because the Bills had no business drafting a RB in the first round. None.

 

I'm less concerned about Troup. I read an article on him which analyzed his play both early in the season and late in the season. Early in the season there were problems with his stance, which caused him to have too high a center of gravity and to get pushed around. Later in the season his technique improved, his center of gravity became lower, and he became a much tougher problem for offensive linemen to try to solve. Oddly, the Bills decreased his playing time even as the quality of his play improved. It's normal for defensive linemen to not come into their own until their second year.

 

IIRC, Carrington had injury problems his rookie year.

 

The Green signing doesn't concern me as much as it does some others in this thread. Green was meant to be a stopgap measure until a real solution to the hole at RT could be found. For whatever reason Green didn't play nearly as well for the Bills as he had for the Raiders. Sometimes aging players hit a wall, and it appears this was the case with Green.

[jcbillsfan]

Any other team would consider last years draft class very disappointing. Here, it's just the norm.

 

It's really easy to preach patience, but the table was set for the rookies they drafted last year.

 

Spiller is a RB. RB's routinely hit the ground running as rookies. Instead he had no impact despite being the first back taken. The Bills are so excited about him that they went out and signed a kick returning gimmick player to a significant 4 year deal. Not looking like Spiller is going to be the next Marshall Faulk or Chris Johnson anymore, is it?

 

Troupe and Carrington couldn't even get snaps on the worst run stopping defense in the NFL. Enough said about their contribution.

 

They did get a nice contribution from Moats and a few UDFA's but that was a LOADED draft. Teams all over the league got big time results from their rookies. The Bills were playing catch-up coming into that draft and considering how high they were drafting the results have been disappointing.

[/quot

who ever said Spiller was going to be the next chris johnson or faulk . They took him because they thought he was the best player available . next 4 picks were Alualu , many said way to high , he did play well but was he a fit for a 3/4 not sure, Anthony davis is next up , played ok, some good a lot bad with a really questionable work ethic rap from Rutgers. Then Matthews who did very little, then graham hurt , I can go on but if you look at the first round it was a disaster last year if you want to base it on year on proformance.

 

point two can we give troupe and carrigan a second year before they are bust/ From all accounts Troupe is looking and playing very well this summer

 

Moats, nelson, jones, coleman all played .

[Dirtbag]

Except that's not what it says in Sully's article. It says the Falcons signed him for what the Bills gave Walker. It doesn't say the Bills offered Clabo what they offered Walker. Reports have indicated that the Bills offered Clabo 7m per year. Which was what they gave Dockery.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

am i the only one who finds it difficult to believe that he chose to take $2 million a year less to stay with atlanta, thereby losing $10 million over the life of the contract?

 

it seems far more likely to me that buddy didn't covet him as highly as these unsubstantiated reports would lead us to believe.

[jcbillsfan]

The Jets lost 12 games in 07. They turned it around in one year. Same for the packer who lost 10 game in 08. Made the playoffs the next year.

 

Merriman hasn't been a pro bowler in 4 years. He's played in a total of 5 game over that time. Oh, he's looking good after 5 preseason practices? Talk to me in week 8.

 

Drafting tackles in the 4-5th rounds is not addressing the Offensive line.

 

Kelsay is still on the team. D Ware, Harrison, Woodley, Phillips, Dumerville are his contemporaries. See the problem?

 

TB went from 3 wins to 10 wins. I'd call that a pretty good turn around.

 

I just keep reading excuse after excuse. Glad to see that you're happy with mediocrity.

as for the jets 10-6 the year before they were 4-12

 

green bay was 13-3 the year before they were 6-10

 

you are cherry picking a teams on a off year do to injuries mostly

as for kelsey contemporaries , any of those guy available in the 18 months buddy has been on the job

 

Back to right tackle , give me your guy that you could have signed . Cleary not that easy when you offer the best guy Clabo the most money and he doesn't come

[John Cocktosten]

Moats, nelson, jones, coleman all played .

The Bills were at the very bottom of the league in starts from their draft picks. Very few undrafted FA's become great players. That's why they have the draft.

 

BTW, 12 tackles from Coleman. 18 catches for Jones. 18 solos and 2.5 sacks from Moats. Scary production.

[PromoTheRobot]

Any other team would consider last years draft class very disappointing. Here, it's just the norm.

 

It's really easy to preach patience, but the table was set for the rookies they drafted last year.

 

Spiller is a RB. RB's routinely hit the ground running as rookies. Instead he had no impact despite being the first back taken. The Bills are so excited about him that they went out and signed a kick returning gimmick player to a significant 4 year deal. Not looking like Spiller is going to be the next Marshall Faulk or Chris Johnson anymore, is it?

 

Troupe and Carrington couldn't even get snaps on the worst run stopping defense in the NFL. Enough said about their contribution.

 

They did get a nice contribution from Moats and a few UDFA's but that was a LOADED draft. Teams all over the league got big time results from their rookies. The Bills were playing catch-up coming into that draft and considering how high they were drafting the results have been disappointing.

[/quot

who ever said Spiller was going to be the next chris johnson or faulk . They took him because they thought he was the best player available . next 4 picks were Alualu , many said way to high , he did play well but was he a fit for a 3/4 not sure, Anthony davis is next up , played ok, some good a lot bad with a really questionable work ethic rap from Rutgers. Then Matthews who did very little, then graham hurt , I can go on but if you look at the first round it was a disaster last year if you want to base it on year on proformance.

 

point two can we give troupe and carrigan a second year before they are bust/ From all accounts Troupe is looking and playing very well this summer

 

Moats, nelson, jones, coleman all played .

 

People who want to argue about how bad everything is conveniently ignore the successes the Bills have had, or they spin it to a negative. They also ignore the fact that few draftees make an impact in year one. I recall someone posting today about "superstar" QB Aaron Rogers. Well that superstar warmed the bench for 4 seasons before starting, and Green Bay had to let go of a future HOF'er to make it happen.

 

Great teams are not built with nothing but #1 picks and $12 million dollar free agents. It takes low picks and undrafteds and guys cut by other teams, all molded into a winning team by great coaching. It also takes time. Talk about 11 years and no playoffs all you want but you're chasing your tail. To me the clock started last year with Nix and Gailey. What Ol' Whitey, Meathead, Greggo, or Dickless did or didn't do has no bearing on this team.

 

PTR

Edited August 6, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[jcbillsfan]

am i the only one who finds it difficult to believe that he chose to take $2 million a year less to stay with atlanta, thereby losing $10 million over the life of the contract?

 

it seems far more likely to me that buddy didn't covet him as highly as these unsubstantiated reports would lead us to believe.

If you are married with young kids ,on a winning team , and not far from where you grew up you might stay

[White Linen]

I'm not bashing Nix because so far he's done a good job IMO. And this is only his second offseason. This is a young team with some talent and potential.

 

 

They should've overpaid Clabo. I don't think he ever intended to come here and was just leveraging us against the Falcons, but if we offered a lot more than the 5 years/$25 mil he got, maybe he would've came for the money.

 

How do you know they didn't? Say they offered him 10% more and offered 5 years/$27.5 mil, would that be enough? Or how much more should we overpay, 20% - 30% - 40%? Whatever it takes? I agree with Nix that's not how you build a team, that's how you dig a hole for yourself.

[John Cocktosten]

as for the jets 10-6 the year before they were 4-12

 

green bay was 13-3 the year before they were 6-10

 

you are cherry picking a teams on a off year do to injuries mostly

as for kelsey contemporaries , any of those guy available in the 18 months buddy has been on the job

 

Back to right tackle , give me your guy that you could have signed . Cleary not that easy when you offer the best guy Clabo the most money and he doesn't come

The Jets went out and got Holmes, Edwards, Pace, Taylor, Cromartie, Scott, LT.....that's why they are where they are.

 

GB did a total rebuild in 08. Grant it the have AR but again, Fitz isn't the Bills problem. Packers '10 and '11 picks? OT and OT. Guess they're important.

 

There were a ton of Tackles who went on to start from the 2010 draft. Buddy refuses to trade up or down by his own admission. Instead he picked a bunch of players who made zero impact. He should have anticipated a thin FA class. Pretty simple really.

[thewildrabbit]

Took a show with green , remember last year there was very little movement in free agency, by the all team miss with free agnets

not sure what the probelm with kelsey's extention. As they upgrade the roster he can be cut at anytime.

Lets see what Spiller does this year before making judgements

again they just went after the best right tackle available in free agency. They drafted a solid prospect in this draft. Seems like an effort is being made

Outide linebacker. hmm they signed a former all pro olb. whom from all accounts is looling very ggod.

Greenbay has been a solid team for oh like 15 years. Ans the Jets have been good since Parcells had them .

seems to me we played pretty even with kc on the road last year, not sure i see that much different in the teams except we have to play the jets and pats for 4 games

T.b will see ,can they make the playoffs before we call it a turn around

Not for nothing at least Gailey was smart enough to bench Spiller when he found out the kid was clueless as a blocker, jauron would have kept him on the field

 

You are right, Nix should get props for at least attempting to sign Clabo. If he is still not certain as to how good the people under him are at evaluating talent, then going after a certified pro bowler free agent RT makes perfect sense.

Lets look at a decade of ineptitude at drafting. Modrak is finally gone but who knows if any remnants of that historically bad scouting team still remain.

 

As GM I would think Nix simply reads the scouting reports given to him by the teams scouts, if some of those people are bad at their jobs it may take more then one year to figure out who they are and get rid of them. It did take ten years of Modrak scurrying about before the axe fell on him, Nix should also get props for getting rid of him

 

The Jets were 4-12 in 2005. The very first thing Mike Tannenbaum did when he was hired as GM of the NY Jets was to draft center Nick Mangold and LT D' Brickashaw Ferguson, thus building a solid O line immediately . The result of that build was a 10-6 season, the Jets have had a dominate O line since 06. Brad Smith and Leon washington were also drafted in 06. For those that don't know Tannenbaum worked under Bill Belichick in Cleveland. Kinda the reason why some Bills fans are complaining about two drafts, two free agent periods and no real line help, or TE

Edited August 6, 2011 by Harvey lives

[Dirtbag]

If you are married with young kids ,on a winning team , and not far from where you grew up you might stay

 

i hear you, and i'm not saying it's impossible. still, the more obvious explanation to me is that we didn't offer him that much and these vague, unsubstantiated "reports" aren't accurate.

 

i just find it difficult to believe any rational person would leave that much money on the table, especially one who plays football for a living. his career could be over at any moment.

 

this discussion points to our limited access as fans. we'll never truly know what was offered, nor what was rejected. anonymous "sources" in news articles all have agendas of their own.

[jcbillsfan]

The Jets went out and got Holmes, Edwards, Pace, Taylor, Cromartie, Scott, LT.....that's why they are where they are.

 

GB did a total rebuild in 08. Grant it the have AR but again, Fitz isn't the Bills problem. Packers '10 and '11 picks? OT and OT. Guess they're important.

 

There were a ton of Tackles who went on to start from the 2010 draft. Buddy refuses to trade up or down by his own admission. Instead he picked a bunch of players who made zero impact. He should have anticipated a thin FA class. Pretty simple really.

THere were so many holes he choose to tackle the defense first , knowing Chan could probalbly cobble something together on offense . which he kind of did

 

If you look at the defense today .The d line is looking very good. The secondary should be solid

Linebackers will see. but certainly heading in the right direction

on offense they have a solid stable of wide receivers and running backs

THe team is really only a few upgrades away from making the 9-7 you were so happy to point out the jets reached in their big turn around

 

and finally how many big time free agents you see the Steelers bring in every year

 

i hear you, and i'm not saying it's impossible. still, the more obvious explanation to me is that we didn't offer him that much and these vague, unsubstantiated "reports" aren't accurate.

 

i just find it difficult to believe any rational person would leave that much money on the table, especially one who plays football for a living. his career could be over at any moment.

 

this discussion points to our limited access as fans. we'll never truly know what was offered, nor what was rejected. anonymous "sources" in news articles all have agendas of their own.

good point , i guess with the nfl contracts you never know what they are really worth anyway , roster bonus, grt money , ect

Edited August 6, 2011 by jcbillsfan

[John Cocktosten]

THere were so many holes he choose to tackle the defense first , knowing Chan could probalbly cobble something together on offense . which he kind of did

 

If you look at the defense today .The d line is looking very good. The secondary should be solid

Linebackers will see. but certainly heading in the right direction

on offense they have a solid stable of wide receivers and running backs

THe team is really only a few upgrades away from making the 9-7 you were so happy to point out the jets reached in their big turn around

 

and finally how many big time free agents you see the Steelers bring in every year

 

 

good point , i guess with the nfl contracts you never know what they are really worth anyway , roster bonus, grt money , ect

 

Let's end the craziness with the Steelers stuff. They have a system that they've been running there for a long time. Only the Pats and the Colts have been able to match their success and they all do it differently. Steelers and Colts draft. Pats are FA/draft/trade.

 

 

I don't see the Bills being close to 9-7. They are in a division with 2 of the best front offices/coaching staffs in the league. Until they can overcome the Jets or the Pats they are not even close. And if you haven't noticed, the Jets and the Pats kill it in FA and aggressive trades.

 

The D line is not very good. It has potential to be good. Beyond KW and Dareus, who should be great, there is a lot of question marks. LBs? No depth and no pass rushers.

[hondo in seattle]

I'm glad that you're sick of it but up until now he's done nothing outside of drafting Dareus (who fell into his lap) to make me think he's going to be any different from past disasters.

-Cornell Green signing.

-Kelsay extension.

-Drafting Spiller when you have FJ and Lynch and a terrible Oline.

-Failure to SERIOUSLY address either tackle spot in two drafts and FA periods.

-Failure to SERIOUSLY upgrade the outside pass rush in two drafts and FA periods.

-Instilling the belief in some fans (you) that it will take 3-4 years to rebuild when teams like KC, TB, GB and the Jets have all done it in 1 year.

 

Same ol same ol at OBD. Buddy, wash, rinse, repeat...

 

The Bills had too many problems to be fixed in two drafts. Buddy did acquire some play-makers (we had more-or-less none) and shored up the defense. He hasn't solved all our needs yet, but he's getting closer.