UFO Found on Ocean Floor?

[Fadingpain]

One last thought:

 

For some reason, the UFO community seems to think that alien life would inherently want to visit Earth only in some stealthy, unobserved manner. And the government of the USA (or other countries) is willingly agreeing to maintain the secrecy.

 

This strikes me as inherently absurd. I will put forth the following: if an advanced alien civilization actually visited the Earth in some type of "UFO", EVERYONE would like know about it...it would also arguably be the most important event in human history.

 

I don't know why we all have to assume this would be done on the sly; I think it would be fantastically public and obvious.

 

Why wouldn't it?

[4merper4mer]

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31442952

 

BBC had an article today as well about this plan. I have to say, joking aside, this seems like a fundamentally flawed plan.

Multiple choice quiz time....

 

It is a bad plan because:

 

A. The aliens are smart enough to come get us and just be meanies and kill us all but too dumb to find us without someone sending a Facebook post into outer space,

 

B. The aliens are advanced enough to find us and advanced enough to travel through space but so desperate for resources that they need to kill us and take all our wheat.

 

Occum's Shaver's choice": Because it is like talking to a wall or a ghost. It either doesn't exist, it can't talk back or both.

 

D. Because there really is an emotionless half robot half life based collective named after an emotionless tennis player who will come and get us and make us all wear headbands and Fila shorts.

[/dev/null]

One last thought:

 

For some reason, the UFO community seems to think that alien life would inherently want to visit Earth only in some stealthy, unobserved manner. And the government of the USA (or other countries) is willingly agreeing to maintain the secrecy.

 

This strikes me as inherently absurd. I will put forth the following: if an advanced alien civilization actually visited the Earth in some type of "UFO", EVERYONE would like know about it...it would also arguably be the most important event in human history.

 

I don't know why we all have to assume this would be done on the sly; I think it would be fantastically public and obvious.

 

Why wouldn't it?

 

If Aliens ever visited the Earth they would probably come for Giorgio Tsoukalos' autograph

[Fadingpain]

 

The problem with this theory is that the Dark Ages affected only the Western peninsula of the major world continent. The Chinese didn't experience the Dark Ages with Western Europe. The Ottoman Turks had a good run during the Dark Ages. The Inca and Aztecs built thriving empires during the Dark Ages. And even the Roman Empire survived another thousand years after the sack of Rome until the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century. Which coincidentally is what prompted Western Europeans to find an alternate to India and thus Christopher Columbus sailed west

Sure, but there's a problem with this. Rome was the Light. Rome was making most of the road network of modern Europe 2,000 years ago; they built the underpinnings of our legal system; they had a highly complicated/sophisticated written language system (Germans were forest wandering morons with only spoken language at the time) and so on.

 

The other civilizations you speak of were not putting mankind on the path to go to the moon; Rome was.

 

And yes, the eastern half of the Roman Empire carried on in Constantinople long after the fall of Rome in the old West, but that Roman Empire was a shadow of the real Roman Empire which predated it. Much of the technology of the old Empire was lost with things shifted East.

 

I suppose your argument is that "civilization" as a whole did not stop with the fall of Rome in 476 AD (if we are going to use that date). Of course that is true; but the meaningful part of civilization did.

 

The Incas were never going to put us on the moon or give us internal combustion engines.

 

And really, if want to admire a great civilization that is not part of the European tradition which DID contribute a lot to humanity, it would be the Persian Empire...the big bully in the world in the time of the ancient Greeks.

 

They got things going nicely, but then faded. The Greeks took over, but then faded. Rome took everything to a whole new level and started doing things properly...the fall of the Roman Empire and Europe's descent into darkness set the evolution of this earth back a good 1,000 years.

 

I love to read stories of "life in London" in the year 1600 let's say, when Shakespeare was still around. There are accounts of streets in London being so mucked up and flowing with, basically, POOP, that they were impassable.

 

That's only 1,600 years after Romans were enjoying toilets, a plumbing system, and tons of clean drinking water.

 

No one was doing that in S. America, ever....for example (in old times).

Multiple choice quiz time....

 

It is a bad plan because:

 

A. The aliens are smart enough to come get us and just be meanies and kill us all but too dumb to find us without someone sending a Facebook post into outer space,

 

B. The aliens are advanced enough to find us and advanced enough to travel through space but so desperate for resources that they need to kill us and take all our wheat.

 

Occum's Shaver's choice": Because it is like talking to a wall or a ghost. It either doesn't exist, it can't talk back or both.

 

D. Because there really is an emotionless half robot half life based collective named after an emotionless tennis player who will come and get us and make us all wear headbands and Fila shorts.

I think you mean Occam's Razor.

 

Yes, the Hawking view of aliens (coming to get us) is kind of silly in my opinion. This is the "War of the Worlds" theory of extra-terrestrial visitation I guess.

 

As noted up-thread, it is so freaking hard to get from point A to Point B (Earth) that anyone who can pull it off probably has other solutions to their problems, other than stealing Earth's wheat reserves as you put it! LOL.

 

Good point.

 

At a certain level of technology, sentient life probably would transcend a need for having a body. At that point, most concerns about "needing our resources" are probably unfounded.

[/dev/null]

The other civilizations you speak of were not putting mankind on the path to go to the moon; Rome was.

 

What's the Roman Numeral for Zero?

 

With the exception of Super Bowls, does the modern world user Roman or Arabic Numerals? And by Arabic Numerals they are really an Indian script adopted by the Persians

[Fadingpain]

 

What's the Roman Numeral for Zero?

 

With the exception of Super Bowls, does the modern world user Roman or Arabic Numerals? And by Arabic Numerals they are really an Indian script adopted by the Persians

Are you of Arabic descent?

 

Yes, Roman numerals do not include a numeral for "ZERO" and the mathematical history of that is fascinating.

 

Regardless, 2,000 years ago this planet was being pushed toward putting a man on the moon by one civilization only: Rome.

 

Hell, they were (successfully) performing crude forms of brain surgery.

 

When Rome went by the wayside, so did most meaningful advancement on this planet.

Fun fact: according to the Curiosity Rover, in every cubic foot of dirt on Mars, there is 1 quart of water.

 

The topsoil there is full of water.

 

Anyone want to gamble on whether or not there is life there?

 

I bet there is something there. Wouldn't it be wild if they find some crude life there?

 

Wouldn't that kind of kill the Bible myth and that sort of stuff?

 

If Aliens ever visited the Earth they would probably come for Giorgio Tsoukalos' autograph

Hey, thanks for mentioning this cat. I had to look him up.

 

I just discovered my boy Joe Rogan has a 2 H 20 M podcast with the dude....will be fun night tonight.

 

What's the Roman Numeral for Zero?

 

With the exception of Super Bowls, does the modern world user Roman or Arabic Numerals? And by Arabic Numerals they are really an Indian script adopted by the Persians

Have a look at the design and construction of the Flavian Amphitheater in Rome, or what we call "The Colosseum".

 

It is basically the blueprint for every sports auditorium/stadium in the modern world, complete with sufficient bathrooms, ingress/egress points, water fountains, and so on. The way it was designed was brilliant.

 

I mention this only because this a football forum, and the NFL is the most obvious example of "civilization" known to man, correct? (That's a joke). And who gave it to us? It wasn't anybody living in the fertile crescent or the Andes, I assure you.

 

If Aliens ever visited the Earth they would probably come for Giorgio Tsoukalos' autograph

I'm 5 minutes into the Joe Rogan podcast with this cat, and I have concluded he's an idiot.

Went to Ithaca College, apparently (!)

 

Always the WNY connection....to EVERYTHING! LOL (well, at least central new york in this case).

 

PS: This dude has 1,000 bracelets and necklaces on in this podcast. I wonder if he derives his powers from those.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Stopthepain

[/dev/null]

Are you of Arabic descent?

 

Nope, i'm a WASP mixed with Mick and Kraut. I'm also very pro Western Judeo-Christian and Anglo-American culture. One of Anglo-American and ancient Roman societies greatest strengths is the willingness to recognize the accomplishments of other cultures and adapting them into our own

 

Go back and read my earlier Christmas Tree post. The same theory can be applied to civilizations on Earth. When one light goes out another will carry on until the other returns

 

 

Yes, Roman numerals do not include a numeral for "ZERO" and the mathematical history of that is fascinating.

Zero is kind of an important mathematical concept. Without it there's alot of scientific and engineering achievements that never would have occurred

 

 

Regardless, 2,000 years ago this planet was being pushed toward putting a man on the moon by one civilization only: Rome.

.

And only 70 years ago this planet was being pushed into space by one civilization only. Nazi Germany

 

 

Fun fact: according to the Curiosity Rover, in every cubic foot of dirt on Mars, there is 1 quart of water.

 

The topsoil there is full of water.

 

Anyone want to gamble on whether or not there is life there?

 

I bet there is something there. Wouldn't it be wild if they find some crude life there?

 

 

 

I doubt they would find current life of Mars. Evidence of past microbial/basic forms of life would not surprise me

[Fadingpain]

 

Nope, i'm a WASP mixed with Mick and Kraut. I'm also very pro Western Judeo-Christian and Anglo-American culture. One of Anglo-American and ancient Roman societies greatest strengths is the willingness to recognize the accomplishments of other cultures and adapting them into our own

 

Go back and read my earlier Christmas Tree post. The same theory can be applied to civilizations on Earth. When one light goes out another will carry on until the other returns

 

 

Zero is kind of an important mathematical concept. Without it there's alot of scientific and engineering achievements that never would have occurred

 

 

And only 70 years ago this planet was being pushed into space by one civilization only. Nazi Germany

 

 

I doubt they would find current life of Mars. Evidence of past microbial/basic forms of life would not surprise me

I make no distinction between current/past life on Mars. Life elsewhere is life elsewhere. Doesn't matter when it happened.

 

You mention the "Nazi" Germany connection like that is somehow bad. I thought this was an interesting conversation about science. Who cares about politics?

 

And indeed, the Germans (not Nazis) were pushing the Earth forward at the early part of the 20th century. Still are.

 

We can thank them for all kinds of great stuff like the swept wing, jet engine, use of wind tunnels for aerodynamic research, and that's the tip of the iceberg.

 

When the War ended, Russia stole as many smart Germans as they could grab, and we did the same.

 

They paved the way for our Space program of course.

 

Ironically, Hitler was constantly looking for a "wonder weapon" to end the war quickly in favor of Germany when all the numbers and logistics worked against him.

 

The one wonder weapon which would have done that is the one he didn't have: a nuclear weapon...largely b/c research in that direction was discouraged by the Nazi regime and dismissed as that "Jewish voodoo" more or less.

 

Ha.

 

Anyway, what the heck does National Socialism have to do with this general conversation?

You aren't one of these online dudes who just argues for the fun of it, are you?

 

I'd rather have an interesting and productive conversation.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Stopthepain

[Deranged Rhino]

One last thought:

 

For some reason, the UFO community seems to think that alien life would inherently want to visit Earth only in some stealthy, unobserved manner. And the government of the USA (or other countries) is willingly agreeing to maintain the secrecy.

 

This strikes me as inherently absurd. I will put forth the following: if an advanced alien civilization actually visited the Earth in some type of "UFO", EVERYONE would like know about it...it would also arguably be the most important event in human history.

 

I don't know why we all have to assume this would be done on the sly; I think it would be fantastically public and obvious.

 

Why wouldn't it?

 

This is a loaded post, with multiple things that need to be unpacked. (This isn't argumentative, more speculative) Let's start with your first point:

 

1) "For some reason, the UFO community seems to think that alien life would inherently want to visit Earth only in some stealthy, unobserved manner."

 

The biggest problem within the "UFO community" is there isn't a uniformed opinion on the phenomenon. However, despite the differences in opinions and theories, this isn't really one that's argued much. There is some logic to the notion that an advanced species would like to remain hidden while observing us, either from a scientific perspective (observing without interfering) and from a security perspective (face it, the natives on this planet are hostile buggers). But stealth isn't the nature of the phenomenon in the overwhelming majority of sightings.

 

2) "And the government of the USA (or other countries) is willingly agreeing to maintain the secrecy."

 

The motive towards secrecy is one of the most important, and often the most overlooked, element of the phenomenon. Mainly because once you start pulling at this particular thread, it begets dozens of other questions about the nature of our society today and its governing bodies. This is also the area wherein most theories about the true nature of the phenomenon diverge, usually dramatically.

 

First, we need to take a few things for granted (again, keeping this conversational, not trying to dig in). Namely that there is overwhelming evidence that the phenomenon has been happening in our airspace for at least seven decades, a phenomenon whose origins we're assuming for the sake of this conversation are in fact extra-terrestrial (or inter-dimensonal). Governments around the world have investigated this phenomenon, many continue to do so today. This can be seen in countless documents secured through the freedom of information act. From reports of Foo-fighters in the 1940s, to Roswell, to Stephensville Texas in 2008, there is a paper trail a mile long showing, unequivocally, that the US Government has an interest in this phenomenon and has been actively investigating it in the interest of national security starting in the late 1940s.

 

Now, look back at your statement and imagine you're sitting in the Oval Office in 1947. It's less than two years removed from the world's greatest war, a new enemy in the Soviet Union is racing to build a nuclear arsenal, and suddenly you find out that a craft from another world has crashed in New Mexico. Imagine then your advisers telling you that the technology of this craft is untouchable by your military and capable of penetrating US airspace whenever it wants. Imagine those same advisers being unable to tell you the intent of the occupants of the craft because they didn't survive -- or possibly the craft was automated. Facing that situation, with most of Europe still smouldering, you might choose secrecy too. What's the alternative? To go on radio and TV and tell the American public that there are craft operating in our airspace with unknown intentions and we're completely unable to do anything about it?

 

So, you classify it. Maybe you justify it to yourself that it's only temporary -- just until you figure out more about the phenomenon. Then, once you sort it out, you'll come clean with the American public and the world that yes, we are being visited by an intelligence (or intelligences) from other worlds. But doing so before you have it figured out would only put lives in danger. Possibly cause panic. And, most importantly, it would deny you an opportunity to get a technological edge over the Soviets. After all, any military man in any country at any point in time would look at the recovery of an advanced craft as an opportunity. An opportunity to reverse engineer something, anything, that will give you an edge over your opponents. In this case, the Soviet Union.

 

It could have started that simple. It was a matter of national security at the time and those men did what they thought was best for the safety of the country. And, maybe they never got the answer to the question. Maybe to this day the US Gov't and its ilk haven't made any sort of contact with extra-terrestrials, or ever recovered any downed craft. Maybe instead they've been chasing the lights in the sky, tracking them, and trying to figure out their origin just like the rest of us. That's a very possible scenario.

 

Of course, there are other scenarios. There are some that believe there was actual contact made, treaties signed between world governments and other world civilizations in exchange for technology. These tend to get very complicated and very New World Order-y very quickly. There are even more outlandish theories of lizard people and prison planets. All of those are fraught with their own band of zealots and nutters. But the scenario I find most interesting is the possibility of a breakaway civilization.

 

Going back to our scenario, imagine if you did recover a downed craft and classified it while you researched it in the late '40s. Now imagine you make breakthroughs with that research. The biggest industry since WW2 in America is the industry of war. The Cold War exploded military spending, created what Ike called the Military Industrial Complex that continues to receive billions in black budget funding from Congress each and every year. Projects we, the people who fund it, aren't allowed to know about. If a compartmentalized section of that industry had access to UFO technology, with nearly unlimited budgets and total secrecy, there comes a point where you advance so far you almost cannot come clean with the public. The breakthroughs are too dramatic without admitting you've been sitting on research and technology that could have potentially reshaped the fabric of our society. And the more advancements you make, the easier it becomes to justify keeping the knowledge secrete -- from a national security standpoint alone, not to mention from a desire to protect whatever geopolitical / social constructs necessary.

 

In this scenario there is no "big secret" being kept by our politicians or elected officials because they are just not in the know. The knowledge and tech has been so compartmentalized and locked away in secret patents and classified projects over the ensuing seventy years that there's just no need to have a direct link back to any sort of congressional body or oversight committee. Instead, the knowledge is controlled by the people who have been profiting from it from the beginning, all in the name of national security.

 

So, that's an incredibly long winded way of saying that it makes much more sense to me that this knowledge would be kept secret, if indeed the US Government were aware of said knowledge. Telling the world about it, despite it being the most important discovery in our world's history as you rightly point out, would be the last thing any government would do. They don't often boast about things beyond their control, it tends to cause more harm than good in their view.

 

 

 

If Aliens ever visited the Earth they would probably come for Giorgio Tsoukalos' autograph

 

:lol:

 

And then Giorgio would charge 'em for SWAG.

[Jim in Anchorage]

One last thought:

 

For some reason, the UFO community seems to think that alien life would inherently want to visit Earth only in some stealthy, unobserved manner. And the government of the USA (or other countries) is willingly agreeing to maintain the secrecy.

 

This strikes me as inherently absurd. I will put forth the following: if an advanced alien civilization actually visited the Earth in some type of "UFO", EVERYONE would like know about it...it would also arguably be the most important event in human history.

 

I don't know why we all have to assume this would be done on the sly; I think it would be fantastically public and obvious.

 

Why wouldn't it?

I see no problem with advanced aliens choosing not to interact with people on earth. Say you're exploring space and find a life form so far down the evolutionary tree from you that they look at us as you would a frog in a pond. Would you try to communicate with that frog or let it know you're around? No. You might study it for a moment and then move on to the next discovery-hopefully one more interesting.

[ChevyVanMiller]

UFO caught on tape.

[Fadingpain]

 

This is a loaded post, with multiple things that need to be unpacked. (This isn't argumentative, more speculative) Let's start with your first point:

 

1) "For some reason, the UFO community seems to think that alien life would inherently want to visit Earth only in some stealthy, unobserved manner."

 

The biggest problem within the "UFO community" is there isn't a uniformed opinion on the phenomenon. However, despite the differences in opinions and theories, this isn't really one that's argued much. There is some logic to the notion that an advanced species would like to remain hidden while observing us, either from a scientific perspective (observing without interfering) and from a security perspective (face it, the natives on this planet are hostile buggers). But stealth isn't the nature of the phenomenon in the overwhelming majority of sightings.

 

2) "And the government of the USA (or other countries) is willingly agreeing to maintain the secrecy."

 

The motive towards secrecy is one of the most important, and often the most overlooked, element of the phenomenon. Mainly because once you start pulling at this particular thread, it begets dozens of other questions about the nature of our society today and its governing bodies. This is also the area wherein most theories about the true nature of the phenomenon diverge, usually dramatically.

 

First, we need to take a few things for granted (again, keeping this conversational, not trying to dig in). Namely that there is overwhelming evidence that the phenomenon has been happening in our airspace for at least seven decades, a phenomenon whose origins we're assuming for the sake of this conversation are in fact extra-terrestrial (or inter-dimensonal). Governments around the world have investigated this phenomenon, many continue to do so today. This can be seen in countless documents secured through the freedom of information act. From reports of Foo-fighters in the 1940s, to Roswell, to Stephensville Texas in 2008, there is a paper trail a mile long showing, unequivocally, that the US Government has an interest in this phenomenon and has been actively investigating it in the interest of national security starting in the late 1940s.

 

Now, look back at your statement and imagine you're sitting in the Oval Office in 1947. It's less than two years removed from the world's greatest war, a new enemy in the Soviet Union is racing to build a nuclear arsenal, and suddenly you find out that a craft from another world has crashed in New Mexico. Imagine then your advisers telling you that the technology of this craft is untouchable by your military and capable of penetrating US airspace whenever it wants. Imagine those same advisers being unable to tell you the intent of the occupants of the craft because they didn't survive -- or possibly the craft was automated. Facing that situation, with most of Europe still smouldering, you might choose secrecy too. What's the alternative? To go on radio and TV and tell the American public that there are craft operating in our airspace with unknown intentions and we're completely unable to do anything about it?

 

So, you classify it. Maybe you justify it to yourself that it's only temporary -- just until you figure out more about the phenomenon. Then, once you sort it out, you'll come clean with the American public and the world that yes, we are being visited by an intelligence (or intelligences) from other worlds. But doing so before you have it figured out would only put lives in danger. Possibly cause panic. And, most importantly, it would deny you an opportunity to get a technological edge over the Soviets. After all, any military man in any country at any point in time would look at the recovery of an advanced craft as an opportunity. An opportunity to reverse engineer something, anything, that will give you an edge over your opponents. In this case, the Soviet Union.

 

It could have started that simple. It was a matter of national security at the time and those men did what they thought was best for the safety of the country. And, maybe they never got the answer to the question. Maybe to this day the US Gov't and its ilk haven't made any sort of contact with extra-terrestrials, or ever recovered any downed craft. Maybe instead they've been chasing the lights in the sky, tracking them, and trying to figure out their origin just like the rest of us. That's a very possible scenario.

 

Of course, there are other scenarios. There are some that believe there was actual contact made, treaties signed between world governments and other world civilizations in exchange for technology. These tend to get very complicated and very New World Order-y very quickly. There are even more outlandish theories of lizard people and prison planets. All of those are fraught with their own band of zealots and nutters. But the scenario I find most interesting is the possibility of a breakaway civilization.

 

Going back to our scenario, imagine if you did recover a downed craft and classified it while you researched it in the late '40s. Now imagine you make breakthroughs with that research. The biggest industry since WW2 in America is the industry of war. The Cold War exploded military spending, created what Ike called the Military Industrial Complex that continues to receive billions in black budget funding from Congress each and every year. Projects we, the people who fund it, aren't allowed to know about. If a compartmentalized section of that industry had access to UFO technology, with nearly unlimited budgets and total secrecy, there comes a point where you advance so far you almost cannot come clean with the public. The breakthroughs are too dramatic without admitting you've been sitting on research and technology that could have potentially reshaped the fabric of our society. And the more advancements you make, the easier it becomes to justify keeping the knowledge secrete -- from a national security standpoint alone, not to mention from a desire to protect whatever geopolitical / social constructs necessary.

 

In this scenario there is no "big secret" being kept by our politicians or elected officials because they are just not in the know. The knowledge and tech has been so compartmentalized and locked away in secret patents and classified projects over the ensuing seventy years that there's just no need to have a direct link back to any sort of congressional body or oversight committee. Instead, the knowledge is controlled by the people who have been profiting from it from the beginning, all in the name of national security.

 

So, that's an incredibly long winded way of saying that it makes much more sense to me that this knowledge would be kept secret, if indeed the US Government were aware of said knowledge. Telling the world about it, despite it being the most important discovery in our world's history as you rightly point out, would be the last thing any government would do. They don't often boast about things beyond their control, it tends to cause more harm than good in their view.

 

 

 

:lol:

 

And then Giorgio would charge 'em for SWAG.

There's a lot to respond to here! GreggyT: are you a member of the "UFO community" as it were? Do you actively research this stuff all the time and try to uncover classified info. concerning UFOs and what not?

 

I'll respond in snippets as I think that is easier.

But regarding the first point, it seems to me that we must assume the UFO community relies on the idea of aliens sneaking around because we have no proof of any kind that Aliens have visited earth. There is no recognized "visitation event". So the it seems logical that if we are to assume aliens have in fact visited Earth, they have done so on the sly. If not, we'd all know about it, wouldn't we?

 

The Roswell situation is a good example. Stories of alleged alien visitation always seem to hinge around a remote location with one or two eye witnesses who aren't quite sure what they saw and then their camera broke when they tried to take a picture, or this type of thing (metaphorically speaking). Further, the alleged alien craft in Roswell would have been tiny.

 

I guess my point is this: why is it presumed that an alien visitation must take place on these terms? How about an alien craft the size of Connecticut hovering over Sao Paulo, with 20 million people checking it out?

 

For me the reason is obvious: it's because there is no alien spacecraft, so you have to rely on various literary devices to tell a compelling tale involving small scale ship, small numbers of aliens, view witnesses, remote location, plausible explanation for lack of definitive documentation of any kind, and so on.

[Fadingpain]

Part II: I agree that the phenomenon has been taking place for a long time, but we must define what "phenomenon" means. I disagree that this means: "a phenomenon whose origins we're assuming for the sake of this conversation are in fact extra-terrestrial (or inter-dimensonal).

 

It is better to define the phenomenon as UFOs. Unidentified Flying Objects. Things people see and can't explain. Plenty of very credible witnesses have reported this, from good airline pilots to astronauts to, famously, Jimmy Carter. There is some interesting (and genuine; not doctored) footage on youtube of various sightings all over the world, some with fairly plausible explanations, others much more intriguing.

 

But I would not accept that "phenomenon" means extra-terrestrial. I've seen no proof of that anywhere.

 

I suspect something did crash in Roswell, I suspect it was recovered by US govt. officials in some capacity, and I suspect it was all covered up. That's because they found the crashed debris of US upper atmosphere monitoring equipment, looking for something like signs of radiation coming from the USSR, assuming they were actively testing for and developing their own nuclear weapons.

That's a perfectly valid assumption to make given the history of the situation and an assumption that aliens haven't visited the Earth and may never do so, for reasons mentioned up thread (universe big place, lots of choices out there to visit; tough to get around).

 

Is there plenty of documented evidence that the US Govt. has interest in investigating UFOs and the like, or at least did at one point in time? Sure! Is there any evidence to suggest anything came of it? No.

 

I completely agree that the industry of war, and the industry of nation building after war are some of America's favorite pastimes.

 

Indeed, Eisenhower warned of the emerging military industrial complex when he left Office. But I do not think we need to rely on "captured alien technology" as an explanation for current technology, especially when you consider the bits and pieces which go into US military hardware come from many nations.

 

This relates to Area 51 or Groom Lake. Is something fishy going on out there? Probably! Or at least was there at one point in time before the place became so famous? Definitely. Was it all part of a secret program to hide UFOs and reverse-engineer their technology so we could make drones fighting in Iraq? No.

 

It was designed for its current purpose: secretly testing and developing new technologies. This would encompass things like the old U-2, SR-71, B-2, F-117, and the cool new stuff that I particularly find fascinating: pulse detonation wave engines and that type of thing.

 

The jet engine is old and dates to the 1930s. Mankind is ready to move to the next propulsion system and it seems obvious why any government would want to do that developmental work secretly.

[4merper4mer]

Spoiler alert:

 

We are either alone or will never be able to contact others who may be out there.

 

Sorry it makes for a boring ending but that's that.

[Fadingpain]

Part III: I completely agree that if in fact alien technology found its way to Earth, it could well become compartmentalized over time as you suggest, such that no sinister conspiracy among large numbers of currently living people would be needed to maintain the secret.

 

I also agree that if alien technology was "captured" by the government (any government really) that government would likely keep it quiet if they could for the reasons you state.

But this takes us full circle back to my original point. Why must we assume something as dramatic and eventful as an alien visitation to a different planet with intelligent life (EARTH) would only be done in some quiet, generally unknown, hidden, small scale manner? Such that a government cover-up on Earth would even be possible?

 

I guess I prefer the "other" depiction of an alien visitation, as envisioned in various sci-fi movies over the years...when in fact you do see a huge "mother ship" in a highly populated area and it is no secret that we have been visited, and therefore, there is no secret for any government to maintain.

 

But now are starting to veer into the "government cover-up" or whatever side of the traditional UFO discussion, which I honestly find kind of boring.

 

Just my opinion of course, but I think it's much more interesting to discuss things we know for sure, like the vastness of space, our apparent speed limit that we can't exceed (speed of light) and how we (or aliens) might overcome these hurdles and actually find intelligent life elsewhere.

 

For example, here is something that is often not discussed. If we are going to travel far away through conventional means (i.e., we don't know how to warp space and go through a worm hole and the like), we are going to need a space ship which can go pretty darned fast. Like 90% speed of light fast would be a good starting point.

 

At anything close to that speed, how would you prevent yourself from flying directly into a moon you didn't know existed? Most of what you fly past would not be known. How would you "chart" that as Han Solo referenced in Star Wars?

 

And even if we assume a perfect chart of everything, you would never be able to chart for random debris, rocks, bits of whatever randomly flying around in space.

 

I suppose we can suggest some type of defense shield would be invented...whereby a cone of plasma energy or God knows what is out in front of the space craft at all times, so if there is some rock out there, it will be eaten up before the ship hits it.

 

Engineering problems of that type are massive and these types of solutions tend to only work on paper. But even if we are to assume that we can solve the "random collision" problem, and even if we assume we can get our spacecraft to go 99% the speed of light...then what?

 

Who is going to fly it? Humans? What if we are headed somewhere that is 5,000 light years away? Even accounting for time dilation, that trip is going to take a really long time. And that's just the first leg. That ship wants to come home to Earth at some point, doesn't it? You are going to need a community of humans on the ship, with generations of children creating new children and so on, with the last batch of descendants being the ones who actually get to where they are going.

 

That's some crazy stuff right there!

 

And with time dilation, if some group of descendants ever did make it back to Earth after this "short little hop" to a planet 5,000 light years away, the Earth they left would be long gone. And not just 10,000 years gone through normal aging. It would be much worse than that with the dilation effect.

 

When you start discussing things on these terms, you see that any intelligence in the universe is going to have a really hard time finding the other intelligence. It may be so difficult that in fact it will never occur.

 

The only way out of this bind is to suggest the "Worm hole" solution whereby we effectively wave our magic wand and solve the problem in that manner. But if such a solution existed, why hasn't anyone used it to come visit us?

 

Well, the universe is a big place. Maybe some aliens have done this and they are working their way around to us, with only another 125 million years to go before they get to Earth.

Spoiler alert:

 

We are either alone or will never be able to contact others who may be out there.

 

Sorry it makes for a boring ending but that's that.

Ha ha. See my last email. No way we are alone. But yes, the raw logistics/engineering problems of getting from here to there may be enough to stop anyone from visiting anyone else.

 

It all hinges on that which we don't know: how frequent is life throughout the universe, and for every bit of life that exists, what percentage of it is of human intelligence or better?

 

If we had perfect knowledge of the situation, what would we find out?

 

We might find out that actually, there is a planet full of interesting creatures, though nothing smarter than a dinosaur...and it's only 475 light years from here. That alone makes it so far away, we'll never really get to it.

 

But we also might find that the nearest planet like that with something interesting going on is 5 million light years away, and that currently, there are only 2 other planets in our entire galaxy that any real intelligence on them.

 

What is the life density of the universe?

 

What is the intelligence density of the universe?

I see no problem with advanced aliens choosing not to interact with people on earth. Say you're exploring space and find a life form so far down the evolutionary tree from you that they look at us as you would a frog in a pond. Would you try to communicate with that frog or let it know you're around? No. You might study it for a moment and then move on to the next discovery-hopefully one more interesting.

This is not totally analogous. Sure, we might not choose to interact with a frog in a pond and we might just sort of walk on by...but we likely would not intentionally hide our activity from the frog or make sure the frog doesn't detect us in any way...which is kind of what all UFO visitation theories hinge on.

 

Perhaps a better question is this: would the frog know we are there? Would he be able to perceive us?

 

In other words, I don't accept that aliens are here but they hide from us. I will buy, perhaps, that they are here but we can't detect them for whatever reason, at least on a conceptual level. That seems the more persuasive scenario to me, if we are to accept that aliens are here or have visited at some time in the past.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Seems to me like if aliens ARE among us and studying us like frogs, they would do their best to discourage the frogs from traveling to the aliens' home planet and bringing frog diseases. They would use their superior intelligence to convince the frogs of all the reasons why space travel was either impossible or very impractical, and persuade the frogs that UFO sightings were the result of misinformed and irrational frogs. In particular, they wouldn't want the frogs to find the wormhole.

 

So I figure "stopthepain" is an alien alias that describes your mission here ("PreventFrogSpaceTravelThatBringsDisease" would have been kind of obvious). Based on how much effort you spent warning about the dangers of space rocks, my guess is that one end of the wormhole is in the asteroid belt. What better place for an alien life form to influence frog decisions than a message board that allows all posters (whether or not they are frogs) to remain eponymous?

 

Ribbit Ribbit.

Edited February 16, 2015 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

[Fadingpain]

Seems to me like if aliens ARE among us and studying us like frogs, they would do their best to discourage the frogs from traveling to the aliens' home planet and bringing frog diseases. They would use their superior intelligence to convince the frogs of all the reasons why space travel was either impossible or very impractical, and persuade the frogs that UFO sightings were the result of misinformed and irrational frogs. In particular, they wouldn't want the frogs to find the wormhole.

 

So I figure "stopthepain" is an alien alias that describes your mission here ("PreventFrogSpaceTravelThatBringsDisease" would have been kind of obvious). Based on how much effort you spent warning about the dangers of space rocks, my guess is that one end of the wormhole is in the asteroid belt. What better place for an alien life form to influence frog decisions than a message board that allows all posters (whether or not they are frogs) to remain eponymous?

 

Ribbit Ribbit.

Ha!

 

Then again, considering these aliens probably mastered inter-galactic space travel and made worm holes work, you would think they would just whip out their Acme Super Atomic Ray Gun and zap the frog ship as it heads out of near Earth orbit.

Or would that be too easy?

 

[4merper4mer]

 

Ha ha. See my last email. No way we are alone. But yes, the raw logistics/engineering problems of getting from here to there may be enough to stop anyone from visiting anyone else.

 

It all hinges on that which we don't know: how frequent is life throughout the universe, and for every bit of life that exists, what percentage of it is of human intelligence or better?

 

If we had perfect knowledge of the situation, what would we find out?

 

We might find out that actually, there is a planet full of interesting creatures, though nothing smarter than a dinosaur...and it's only 475 light years from here. That alone makes it so far away, we'll never really get to it.

 

But we also might find that the nearest planet like that with something interesting going on is 5 million light years away, and that currently, there are only 2 other planets in our entire galaxy that any real intelligence on them.

 

What is the life density of the universe?

 

What is the intelligence density of the universe?

 

 

 

Earlier in the thread you, or someone else stated once you have water and heat....poof.....life. That said, we can't prove that or make it happen. Something happened that created life on Earth. It certainly needs water and heat, but needs something else too......maybe 100 other things all at the same time. How likely is that chain of events? Maybe the sun needs to be EXACTLY like ours....maybe maybe maybe to thousands of other factors. The bottom line is that nobody knows the information well enough to calculate the odds.

 

If the odds favored abundant life, there is no reason to believe intelligence well beyond ours would not have developed let's say a million or two years ago....they may not have been able to navigate space, but wouldn't they have discovered the Goldilocks planets and at least sent some more advanced Voyager-like device? At least one of them?

 

It ain't happening. Ever. Sorry.

 

This whole UFO thing has the same root causes as the reality TV phenomena, Hollywood, Facebook and so many other things. It is so easy to make $$$$$$$$$$$$ once you understand it, but you have to learn it n your own.

Ha!

 

Then again, considering these aliens probably mastered inter-galactic space travel and made worm holes work, you would think they would just whip out their Acme Super Atomic Ray Gun and zap the frog ship as it heads out of near Earth orbit.

Or would that be too easy?

 

Or how about they simply cure the frog disease if they are so smart?

Edited February 16, 2015 by 4merper4mer

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

 

 

. . . Or how about they simply cure the frog disease if they are so smart? . .

 

If you lived on Stopthepain's home planet, would you want to see what appeared (from your planet's perspective) to be an alien frog trying to have sex with your planet's picnic tables, pool toys and couch cushions? I think not.

[Fadingpain]

 

 

Earlier in the thread you, or someone else stated once you have water and heat....poof.....life. That said, we can't prove that or make it happen. Something happened that created life on Earth. It certainly needs water and heat, but needs something else too......maybe 100 other things all at the same time. How likely is that chain of events? Maybe the sun needs to be EXACTLY like ours....maybe maybe maybe to thousands of other factors. The bottom line is that nobody knows the information well enough to calculate the odds.

 

If the odds favored abundant life, there is no reason to believe intelligence well beyond ours would not have developed let's say a million or two years ago....they may not have been able to navigate space, but wouldn't they have discovered the Goldilocks planets and at least sent some more advanced Voyager-like device? At least one of them?

 

It ain't happening. Ever. Sorry.

 

This whole UFO thing has the same root causes as the reality TV phenomena, Hollywood, Facebook and so many other things. It is so easy to make $$$$$$$$$$$$ once you understand it, but you have to learn it n your own.

Or how about they simply cure the frog disease if they are so smart?

I was following you until I wasn't following you.

 

Are you coming at this from a Christian viewpoint or similar?

 

By the way, crude life has been created in a lab. Amino acids, self-replicating RNA molecules, self sealing lipid bubbles and so on. These are the building blocks of life. We haven't created a complex celled organism yet simply because we don't know how to. Yet.

 

I agree we don't have the information necessary to know the odds of life or intelligent life in the universe; I wrote as much up-thread.

 

And yes, it is entirely plausible that very intelligent life developed somewhere, maybe even a few billion years ago. Why limit it to one or two million?

 

So why didn't that intelligent life send a probe our way or a spacecraft? B/C the universe is immense and we don't know where this hypothetical civilization exists relative to us.

 

Please explain the "It ain't happening, ever, sorry" comment.

Why not? It might happen tomorrow. Or it might never happen. As you yourself wrote, we don't know the odds nor can we calculate them.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Stopthepain