UFO Found on Ocean Floor?

[Augie]

24 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Despite the objections of some posters who seem to have weird vendettas and calling me vile names like PD, logic will always rule the day.  

 

I have in fact explained sitcom math in the thread.  It is an equation initially meant to show that there are likely a high number of alien civilizations.  It is based on real factors and there really isn't too much wrong with it.  Rather than go into it all again I'll say:

 

 If all of the unknown factors in the equation are very close to zero, but not zero, the number of civilizations would be incredibly high.

 

We have been collecting and analyzing signals from space for decades.  This involves all points in time since the beginning and all directions.  Not a solitary thing has been found indicating a civilization in any way.

 

Any objective unemotional view of the above two points leads to the obvious conclusion that there is simply nothing to be found.  

 

People can yammer on and on attempting to poke holes in that, but they either fail to look into all of the implications of the above or they do and they remain in denial.  I did that homework in this thread already.  The above is the Cliff notes version.

 

Note:. This logical conclusion applies only to the observable universe, not to other dimensions or other parts of a possible multiverse.

 

This is so small minded and short sighted, I’m almost speechless!

 

You can imagine other dimensions and universes (which I find enlightened and entirely possible, if not likely). I’ll give you huge credit there for recognizing what current science tends to suggest.  But you can’t imagine that our rudimentary glimpse for a fraction of a second in space time, limited by our just now emerging ability to do so has found results? 

 

We know barely more than the chipmunk I keep seeing in my backyard. Cute, but hardly the font of great knowledge. 

 

As to the bold, how do you say that, then say they can’t be out there? 

 

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You seem to be arguing against most people here......and also yourself? 

 

 

What are a few decades of looking over, say, the last 10 BILLION YEARS. If you want to do math, do THAT math. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Augie

[4merper4mer]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

This is so small minded and short sighted, I’m almost speechless!

 

You can imagine other dimensions and universes (which I find enlightened and entirely possible, if not likely). I’ll give you huge credit there for recognizing what current science tends to suggest.  But you can’t imagine that our rudimentary glimpse for a fraction of a second in space time, limited by our just now emerging ability to do so has found results? 

 

We know barely more than the chipmunk I keep seeing in my backyard. Cute, but hardly the font of great knowledge. 

 

 

1. I appreciate your respectful demeanor, which is different from some other posters.

 

2. Although cute, chipmunks can be mildly destructive and make rabbits look like Shakers.

 

3.  Before calling me short sighted and small minded please think.  Really think.  If you do, you may retract what you said about our view being rudimentary.  Even if you don't retract that aspect of it, don't just think about us.  Think about more than just us.  

 

4.  Sometimes avoiding small mindedness involves accepting what the evidence shows, even if you'd prefer it show something else.

 

[Augie]

48 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

1. I appreciate your respectful demeanor, which is different from some other posters.

 

2. Although cute, chipmunks can be mildly destructive and make rabbits look like Shakers.

 

3.  Before calling me short sighted and small minded please think.  Really think.  If you do, you may retract what you said about our view being rudimentary.  Even if you don't retract that aspect of it, don't just think about us.  Think about more than just us.  

 

4.  Sometimes avoiding small mindedness involves accepting what the evidence shows, even if you'd prefer it show something else.

 

 

1) I hope to never be anything but respectful here. Please let me know if you ever think I’ve stepped OB on that. 

 

2) Chipmunks have better PR agents than rats and squirrels, that’s just a fact.

 

3)  I firmly believe we need to look at the bigger picture. Our galaxy is less than one grain of sand on the beach. I think basic life probably exists in our own solar system. The evidence suggests this is likely. I’d be mildly surprised it Titan didn’t have some form of life. That’s like, in my dining room!  I won’t try to speak for you, but it does sound like the earlier Catholic Church. We are NOT the center of the universe, and while we may be unique, I do NOT think we are alone. Have they dropped by for tea? Well, I doubt that, but who knows. Not my point. Because I have never seen an ant in Africa does not mean they don’t exist. 

 

4) That doesn’t even make sense. I don’t “prefer” anything. There is not enough evidence to suggest anything at this point. You seem to be VASTLY overrating the knowledge of mankind. But I will put you ahead of my chipmunk. You may not be as cute, but he can’t type! 

 

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. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Augie

[4merper4mer]

11 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

1) I hope to never be anything but respectful here. Please let me know if you ever think I’ve stepped OB on that. 

 

2) Chipmunks have better PR agents than rats and squirrels, that’s just a fact.

 

3)  I firmly believe we need to look at the bigger picture. Our galaxy is less than one grain of sand on the beach. I think basic life probably exists in our own solar system. The evidence suggests this is likely. I’d be mildly surprised it Titan didn’t have some form of life. That’s like, in my dining room!  I won’t try to speak for you, but it does sound like the earlier Catholic Church. We are NOT the center of the universe, and while we may be unique, I do NOT think we are alone. Have they dropped by for tea? Well, I doubt that, but who knows. Not my point. Because I have never seen an ant in Africa does not meant they don’t exist. 

 

4) That doesn’t even make sense. I don’t “prefer” anything. There is not enough evidence to suggest anything at this point. You seem to be VASTLY overrating the knowledge of mankind. But I will put you ahead of my chipmunk. You may not be as cute, but he can’t type! 

 

 

. 

3. This is where you need to think more, IMO.  You are the one thinking of it from our point of view, not me.  Let's set aside the stuff about Titan and basic life.  We probably agree more than we disagree on that.  We at least agree that we don't know yet.  We also agree about any individual galaxy being a grain of sand but draw opposite conclusions from that.  We are not the center of the universe, physically.  

 

Even if you agreed that we are the only intelligent life, we are still not the center.  So what?

 

Now imagine we are one of many.  How many would there be?  How long would they have been around?  Where would they have originated?  What would they have done and how?  Think of it on their terms.  What does that look like to you?  When you think this through you will see that your comments in point 4 are moot and point 3 is all that needs reflection.

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

3. This is where you need to think more, IMO.  You are the one thinking of it from our point of view, not me.  Let's set aside the stuff about Titan and basic life.  We probably agree more than we disagree on that.  We at least agree that we don't know yet.  We also agree about any individual galaxy being a grain of sand but draw opposite conclusions from that.  We are not the center of the universe, physically.  

 

Even if you agreed that we are the only intelligent life, we are still not the center.  So what?

 

 Now imagine we are one of many.  How many would there be?  How long would they have been around?  Where would they have originated?  What would they have done and how?  Think of it on their terms.  What does that look like to you?  When you think this through you will see that your comments in point 4 are moot and point 3 is all that needs reflection.

 

You said “we don’t know yet”. Points for you! 

 

No one ever meant to say we are the “center of the universe”, it a figure of speech, just pointing out how silly the Church was.  It’s not geographic, obviously. To even bring that up is silly. 

 

As for point #4, you again fail to make a coherent point. How many? I don’t know, but I can’t rule out any number. Where did they originate? Great question....do you have ANY idea how big our universe is? We are a grain of sand, that has only briefly examined the grain next to us on the beach. Decades are but a blink of an eye in the billions of years of our universe. How long have they been around? Because I don’t know doesn’t make it impossible. Probably a REALLY long time! 

 

To think we know we are alone because that’s all we can see is not deep thinking. 

[4merper4mer]

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

You said “we don’t know yet”. Points for you! 

 

No one ever meant to say we are the “center of the universe”, it a figure of speech, just pointing out how silly the Church was.  It’s not geographic, obviously. To even bring that up is silly. 

 

As for point #4, you again fail to make a coherent point. How many? I don’t know, but I can’t rule out any number. Where did they originate? Great question....do you have ANY idea how big our universe is? We are a grain of sand, that has only briefly examined the grain next to us on the beach. Decades are but a blink of an eye in the billions of years of our universe. How long have they been around? Because I don’t know doesn’t make it impossible. Probably a REALLY long time! 

 

To think we know we are alone because that’s all we can see is not deep thinking. 

The discussion has been about intelligent life, not basic forms.  Let's just agree to leave extraterrestrial bacteria out of it.

 

If one really thinks through item 3 then item 4 just merges into it.  4 applies to any endeavor; not just aliens.  It just says go where the evidence leads.

 

Point 3 is where thinking is required.  I understand your point of view but I disagree with it,. The sheer numbers make it clear that the amount of data out there, if any, would be effectively infinite.  But there is none.  What conclusion is most logical based on that?

[Augie]

6 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

The discussion has been about intelligent life, not basic forms.  Let's just agree to leave extraterrestrial bacteria out of it.

 

If one really thinks through item 3 then item 4 just merges into it.  4 applies to any endeavor; not just aliens.  It just says go where the evidence leads.

 

Point 3 is where thinking is required.  I understand your point of view but I disagree with it,. The sheer numbers make it clear that the amount of data out there, if any, would be effectively infinite.  But there is none.  What conclusion is most logical based on that?

 

I took my 91 year old mother to lunch this week. When she was young, milk and ice were delivered to the house by a man in a cart. In her 91 years, she has gone from that to remote controlled science labs driving around on Mars. What might we see in the next hundred years? A thousand? A million? 

 

Open your eyes! IF there is a civilization that could visit, they would be so advanced we’d never know unless they wanted us to know. I just laugh at them crashing all over town, like drunken teenage drivers. 

[4merper4mer]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I took my 91 year old mother to lunch this week. When she was young, milk and ice were delivered to the house by a man in a cart. In her 91 years, she has gone from that to remote controlled science labs driving around on Mars. What might we see in the next hundred years? A thousand? A million? 

 

Open your eyes! IF there is a civilization that could visit, they would be so advanced we’d never know unless they wanted us to know. I just laugh at them crashing all over town, like drunken teenage drivers. 

Re-read what you just wrote and then re-think whether I am the one being human centric or if that is you. Your first paragraph does a great job making my points.

 

Why would a civilization that advanced care if we knew or not?

 

What if there were a million of them?  Would they all want us not to know?  Every single one?  What about signs they may have inadvertently sent before they became so advanced?  Did those disappear?  Yes, the UFO nature of this thread is about physical visitation but clearly that is not the only way we could find out about aliens.

 

Take your example of us and add 1000 years.  What is the most likely thing we'd do?  This is important.  What is the most realistic thing that we'll do?

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Re-read what you just wrote and then re-think whether I am the one being human centric or if that is you. Your first paragraph does a great job making my points.

 

Why would a civilization that advanced care if we knew or not?

 

What if there were a million of them?  Would they all want us not to know?  Every single one?  What about signs they may have inadvertently sent before they became so advanced?  Did those disappear?  Yes, the UFO nature of this thread is about physical visitation but clearly that is not the only way we could find out about aliens.

 

Take your example of us and add 1000 years.  What is the most likely thing we'd do?  This is important.  What is the most realistic thing that we'll do?

Being there, and wanting to make contact are different. 

 

Hell, the average porpoise might be smarter than me. The rest of the galaxy? I’m betting on the galaxy! 

[LeGOATski]

The universe is infinite. The chance of there being intelligent life other than humans is 100%

[Foxx]

it only makes logical sense that we are alone and that no other intelligent life exists. i mean... humans can perceive roughly 0.0035% of the electromagnetic spectrum. were it that we could only detect 0.0005% then the question would definitely be ambiguous.

 

 

 

 

just using my dog whistle here....

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Foxx

[Nervous Guy]

6 hours ago, Augie said:

Open your eyes! IF there is a civilization that could visit, they would be so advanced we’d never know unless they wanted us to know. I just laugh at them crashing all over town, like drunken teenage drivers. 

agreed....one thing that always bothered me was why the hell would UFOs display all these bright flashing colored lights?  Really?  Why would they need lights?  That is not to say I don't believe they exist, but I doubt the sightings that involve any type of "lights in the sky".

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I hope he doesn’t have a heart attack when the truth comes out. 

 

2 hours ago, Nervous Guy said:

agreed....one thing that always bothered me was why the hell would UFOs display all these bright flashing colored lights?  Really?  Why would they need lights?  That is not to say I don't believe they exist, but I doubt the sightings that involve any type of "lights in the sky".

They need lights so the can abide by FAA flight rules.  

 

They are being polite.  

 

[4merper4mer]

13 hours ago, Augie said:

Being there, and wanting to make contact are different. 

 

Hell, the average porpoise might be smarter than me. The rest of the galaxy? I’m betting on the galaxy! 

 

At the risk of being repetitive I'll post a video from earlier in the thread.  It looks at things from from the point of view of the aliens rather than humans.

 

 

 

Or it could be this:

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by 4merper4mer

[RochesterRob]

15 hours ago, Augie said:

 

1) I hope to never be anything but respectful here. Please let me know if you ever think I’ve stepped OB on that. 

 

2) Chipmunks have better PR agents than rats and squirrels, that’s just a fact.

 

3)  I firmly believe we need to look at the bigger picture. Our galaxy is less than one grain of sand on the beach. I think basic life probably exists in our own solar system. The evidence suggests this is likely. I’d be mildly surprised it Titan didn’t have some form of life. That’s like, in my dining room!  I won’t try to speak for you, but it does sound like the earlier Catholic Church. We are NOT the center of the universe, and while we may be unique, I do NOT think we are alone. Have they dropped by for tea? Well, I doubt that, but who knows. Not my point. Because I have never seen an ant in Africa does not mean they don’t exist. 

 

4) That doesn’t even make sense. I don’t “prefer” anything. There is not enough evidence to suggest anything at this point. You seem to be VASTLY overrating the knowledge of mankind. But I will put you ahead of my chipmunk. You may not be as cute, but he can’t type! 

 

. 

 

 

. 

  I think that the Catholic Church takes too much off a beating on this.  If you believe in God or just an extraterrestrial intelligence that fits the description of God then to bring along a primitive civilization that being most likely subscribes to the "Keep it simple stupid" manner of administration to that civilization.  This means don't strain the intelligence of the average member of that civilization to the point where non-function sets in.  That extraterrestrial intelligence would have its own version of Star Trek's Prime Directive that it would use to bring that civilization along slowly for it to acquire more knowledge and wisdom on its own.  The part that nearly all people don't get which makes sense from an observer's viewpoint is the extraterrestrial is not concerned with the creature comforts or ego massaging of any one generation of that primitive civilization.  The extraterrestrial is not concerned that Earth "could have" had electricity 1000 years prior or the cure for cancer 500 years prior to today.  The extraterrestrial is only concerned about the afore mentioned self development at a pace which will hopefully not destroy it.  Wisdom before knowledge.

Edited August 18, 2019 by RochesterRob

[Augie]

15 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I think that the Catholic Church takes too much off a beating on this.  If you believe in God or just an extraterrestrial intelligence that fits the description of God then to bring along a primitive civilization that being most likely subscribes to the "Keep it simple stupid" manner of administration to that civilization.  This means don't strain the intelligence of the average member of that civilization to the point where non-function sets in.  That extraterrestrial intelligence would have its own version of Star Trek's Prime Directive that it would use to bring that civilization along slowly for it to acquire more knowledge and wisdom on its own.  The part that nearly all people don't get which makes sense from an observer's viewpoint is the extraterrestrial is not concerned with the creature comforts or ego massaging of any one generation of that primitive civilization.  The extraterrestrial is not concerned that Earth "could have" had electricity 1000 years prior or the cure for cancer 500 years prior to today.  The extraterrestrial is only concerned about the afore mentioned self development at a pace which will hopefully not destroy it.  Wisdom before knowledge.

 

I think the Church was most concerned with their own importance and power and protecting it. But that’s another whole discussion. To think there may be other intelligent life out there certainly does NOT mean there is no God. But it does put a little dent in the version the Catholic Church wants us to buy. That’s as far as I’ll go on that. 

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I think the Church was most concerned with their own importance and power and protecting it. But that’s another whole discussion. To think there may be other intelligent life out there certainly does NOT mean there is no God. But it does put a little dent in the version the Catholic Church wants us to buy. That’s as far as I’ll go on that. 

  You're stating what many believe in that the Church really had no guidance from its inception other than human guidance.  If we are willing to consider that ET's have been among us for many centuries and were predisposed to guide humanity to some degree then it is possible that they guided the early Church.  Not Star Trek in the sense that they are present for one small instance then entirely removed.  This is Star Trek in the sense that they have decided to guide us for many centuries perhaps using technologies unimaginable to induce patterns of thought.  In the sense that they would introduce a set of core principles but for the most part let that civilization find its own way to truly know what that civilization can do on its own.  Not much different than proper parenting.  Sure, you could complete your child's school science project for them but the bigger reward is letting that child do the project on its own and learn from its failures.  The leadership of the Church that you describe as being more concerned with power and control was the child in the sense in that it learned that control to that degree stifles creativity which stagnates civilization.  The civilization dealt with it and as a reward to itself it advanced.  

[Deranged Rhino]

It's nice to see this thread popping quite a bit, good discussions being had by most everyone  

 

I am under a deadline for something else, which means I'm in FULL procrastination mode and am channeling that into giving my take on a couple of comments. Of course all of the following is hypothetical/theoretical/opinion, just hoping to further the discussion...  

 

9 hours ago, Nervous Guy said:

agreed....one thing that always bothered me was why the hell would UFOs display all these bright flashing colored lights?  Really?  Why would they need lights?  That is not to say I don't believe they exist, but I doubt the sightings that involve any type of "lights in the sky".

 

This is an important question, and one I've dove into more than once or twice. It's connected to the "why don't they just land on the White House lawn and show themselves" questions, which are also valid. There are a couple schools of thought on this, but they all come back around to the same issue -- namely that this phenomenon, lights/craft in our skies, is both physical and spiritual in nature and manifestation. Physical in the sense that some of these sightings are real craft, built by advanced intelligences of unknown origin, being piloted by sentient beings in our skies. Spiritual in the sense that some of these sightings, while appearing to us as crafts or some sort of physical technology, are actually beings from a higher plane of existence/higher celestial dimensions. And then sometimes it's a fusion of both the physical and spiritual, making it all the more confounding. 

 

But, for now, let's set that aside and focus on the nuts and bolts of your questions starting with: why would (UFOs) need lights? There are many reasons why a physical craft would require lights, just as our own craft here do. Illumination/vision reasons aside, lights have long been used as a means of communicating by humans. It's likely other sentient species would use lights in a similar manner during their evolution and technological progression. So a physical craft having lights on it, even colored lights, doesn't bump me much. There's also another layer to this question -- which is MANY of the "UFO" sightings of lights in the sky aren't alien in origin but our own technology being tested. I do not mean just top secret spy planes -- but craft built based on (or with) advanced technology/propulsion that are "alien" in origin but entirely built, funded, and flown by humans. Those craft, because they're built by humans and with humans in mind to pilot them, are often the ones who light up the sky rather than any out of town visitors.

 

Let's set the possibility of a human secret space program aside as well for now and turn back to the question you led with.

 

This is the bigger question: (paraphrased) "why would UFOs display their lights to humans in the first place?" This is especially true if you subscribe to the idea that the visitors (whoever/whatever they are) have been trying to stay hidden from humans this whole time. Cruising around flashing your high beams at the simple humans down below doesn't seem like the smartest way to lie low after all. So if they're using their lights, they either don't care if they're seen or, more likely, want to be seen. Which brings us back to communication through lights... 

 

For the sake of the discussion let's assume it's a given that there are craft in our skies visiting, and they have been visiting since at least the 1940s if not much, much longer. If that is indeed the case, and over all that time only a small segment of the population has seen them or interacted with them in some way, then it seems logical to conclude that the occupants of the crafts themselves only communicate with specific people for a specific reason. But what's the reason? Why do they seemingly only choose to interact with certain people? Here we go back into the weeds in terms of the the spiritual nature and technological nature of the phenomenon blending together.

 

The answer that satisfies me the most comes down to consciousness. Most of the beings piloting the UFOs seem to be abiding by some sort of Prime Directive (cue @/dev/nulldeserved laugh) which mandates they cannot (or should not) interject themselves into our affairs unless invited. Whether this is mandated by some sort of interstellar law/governing body or it's a mandate passed on down from some higher power is hotly debated but the end result is the same. What does that mean in practice? Even if I'd LOVE to see them land on the White House lawn and I invite them to do it with my conscious mind, billions of other people out there have not consciously asked for this kind of jolt to their reality. Such a jolt could be damaging to the stability of their lives and our societies/governments overall. So, instead of landing on the south lawn, where billions of people would end up having to confront this new reality, the visitors show up over my house/campsite/car where only I (and those who welcomed the experience) can see them and put on a show to let me know they're there.

 

Just my take  

 

( @Augie and @RochesterRob are having a good discussion about religion which slides in nicely to the spiritual stuff I'm mentioning... I want to dive into some of that discussion in a bit, but for now II've procrastinated long enough. Back in a bit... )  

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

It's nice to see this thread popping quite a bit, good discussions being had by most everyone  

 

I am under a deadline for something else, which means I'm in FULL procrastination mode and am channeling that into giving my take on a couple of comments. Of course all of the following is hypothetical/theoretical/opinion, just hoping to further the discussion...  

 

 

This is an important question, and one I've dove into more than once or twice. It's connected to the "why don't they just land on the White House lawn and show themselves" questions, which are also valid. There are a couple schools of thought on this, but they all come back around to the same issue -- namely that this phenomenon, lights/craft in our skies, is both physical and spiritual in nature and manifestation. Physical in the sense that some of these sightings are real craft, built by advanced intelligences of unknown origin, being piloted by sentient beings in our skies. Spiritual in the sense that some of these sightings, while appearing to us as crafts or some sort of physical technology, are actually beings from a higher plane of existence/higher celestial dimensions. And then sometimes it's a fusion of both the physical and spiritual, making it all the more confounding. 

 

But, for now, let's set that aside and focus on the nuts and bolts of your questions starting with: why would (UFOs) need lights? There are many reasons why a physical craft would require lights, just as our own craft here do. Illumination/vision reasons aside, lights have long been used as a means of communicating by humans. It's likely other sentient species would use lights in a similar manner during their evolution and technological progression. So a physical craft having lights on it, even colored lights, doesn't bump me much. There's also another layer to this question -- which is MANY of the "UFO" sightings of lights in the sky aren't alien in origin but our own technology being tested. I do not mean just top secret spy planes -- but craft built based on (or with) advanced technology/propulsion that are "alien" in origin but entirely built, funded, and flown by humans. Those craft, because they're built by humans and with humans in mind to pilot them, are often the ones who light up the sky rather than any out of town visitors.

 

Let's set the possibility of a human secret space program aside as well for now and turn back to the question you led with.

 

This is the bigger question: (paraphrased) "why would UFOs display their lights to humans in the first place?" This is especially true if you subscribe to the idea that the visitors (whoever/whatever they are) have been trying to stay hidden from humans this whole time. Cruising around flashing your high beams at the simple humans down below doesn't seem like the smartest way to lie low after all. So if they're using their lights, they either don't care if they're seen or, more likely, want to be seen. Which brings us back to communication through lights... 

 

For the sake of the discussion let's assume it's a given that there are craft in our skies visiting, and they have been visiting since at least the 1940s if not much, much longer. If that is indeed the case, and over all that time only a small segment of the population has seen them or interacted with them in some way, then it seems logical to conclude that the occupants of the crafts themselves only communicate with specific people for a specific reason. But what's the reason? Why do they seemingly only choose to interact with certain people? Here we go back into the weeds in terms of the the spiritual nature and technological nature of the phenomenon blending together.

 

The answer that satisfies me the most comes down to consciousness. Most of the beings piloting the UFOs seem to be abiding by some sort of Prime Directive (cue @/dev/nulldeserved laugh) which mandates they cannot (or should not) interject themselves into our affairs unless invited. Whether this is mandated by some sort of interstellar law/governing body or it's a mandate passed on down from some higher power is hotly debated but the end result is the same. What does that mean in practice? Even if I'd LOVE to see them land on the White House lawn and I invite them to do it with my conscious mind, billions of other people out there have not consciously asked for this kind of jolt to their reality. Such a jolt could be damaging to the stability of their lives and our societies/governments overall. So, instead of landing on the south lawn, where billions of people would end up having to confront this new reality, the visitors show up over my house/campsite/car where only I (and those who welcomed the experience) can see them and put on a show to let me know they're there.

 

Just my take  

 

( @Augie and @RochesterRob are having a good discussion about religion which slides in nicely to the spiritual stuff I'm mentioning... I want to dive into some of that discussion in a bit, but for now II've procrastinated long enough. Back in a bit... )  

 

Whatever you’re putting off must be REALLY important!   ?

[Hedge]

 

 

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