I don't think I'm a Ralph apologist

[billsfreak]

VERY interesting point!

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Having a husband who comes home drunk every Friday night and beats you, is better than having no husband at all", is effectively what that line of BS says.

Exactly. Or having a wife who sleeps with everyone on your street but you, won't cook, clean and robs your checkbook, but hey at least you have a wife!

[dpberr]

This is an interesting topic and a difficult question to answer.

 

Do you judge the entire body of work, or just a snapshot in time? Only on-field performance, or overall franchise health?

 

Let's take for example, the New York Giants. The Giants have had their rough stretches both on and off the field during the later half of the 60s well into the 70s. They missed the playoffs for nearly 20 years and there was a big meltdown over the Mara family decision to move the Giants to NJ. It wasn't until the mid 80s that the franchise had things turned around, mostly in thanks to Pete Rozelle for recommending George Young run the team (and build those 80s teams of Taylor etc.).

 

For many football fans that's all ancient history and may not matter. My point is for every glory year a franchise has, there are usually two to three bust years.

[DrDawkinstein]

This is a very fair assessment. And accurate, IMHO.

 

The one thing about your post that I find most credible is that not once did you mention money or regurgitated the tired "Ralph is cheap" mantra.

 

I point that out because there is not now nor has there ever been a correlation between owners spending big money and success on the field.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Depends on what you are talking about with regards to where they spend that money. If you are talking about simply throwing money at "Big Name" players, then I can agree.

 

But where the "Cheap" accusation comes in, is when you look at how Ralph hires/pays Front Office staff and Coaches. Also when you look at how he spends money on facilities. Compared to a lot of owners/teams, Ralph IS very cheap when it comes to that stuff. And if DOES make a difference with regards to success on the field.

 

That is the culture of mediocrity which Ralph has built over 50 years, that some of us reference. No need to acquire/keep top Pro Personnel guys, no need to give players state of the art facilities, therefore no need to win championships. Just come in and collect that check from the league, and the players will come in and collect that check from the owner...

Edited July 25, 2011 by DrDareustein

[JohnC]

That is so easy to see and so obvious you would think to everyone, I mean it is in black and white/win-loss records. But give it a few minutes and you will hear "But he kept the Bills in Buffalo" excuse from several people on here. People have been using that excuse for far too many years. In the 1970's it was fine, 1980's got a little old, but OK. They we started winning for almost a decade, so it wasn't a problem. Now the old excuse has reared it's ugly head again for the past decade of consistent losing.

 

That loser and inferiority mentality have served Ralph Wilson very well. When it gets to the point that one accepts mediocrity then people shouldn't be too surprised that they continue to get mediocrity.

 

The Bills record during the half century of ownership by Ralph Wilson is 358-406-8. What is more lame than the Bills' historical record is the pathetic rationalization for it.

 

This is an interesting topic and a difficult question to answer.

 

Do you judge the entire body of work, or just a snapshot in time? Only on-field performance, or overall franchise health?

 

Let's take for example, the New York Giants. The Giants have had their rough stretches both on and off the field during the later half of the 60s well into the 70s. They missed the playoffs for nearly 20 years and there was a big meltdown over the Mara family decision to move the Giants to NJ. It wasn't until the mid 80s that the franchise had things turned around, mostly in thanks to Pete Rozelle for recommending George Young run the team (and build those 80s teams of Taylor etc.).

 

For many football fans that's all ancient history and may not matter. My point is for every glory year a franchise has, there are usually two to three bust years.

 

You owe the Mara family a major apology for the insult of comparing their family ownership of the Giants to Ralph Wilson's half century ownership of the Bills. The Giants are a cornerstone franchise while the Bills have become an irrelevant franchise that hardly is noticed.

[K-9]

Depends on what you are talking about with regards to where they spend that money. If you are talking about simply throwing money at "Big Name" players, then I can agree.

 

But where the "Cheap" accusation comes in, is when you look at how Ralph hires/pays Front Office staff and Coaches. Also when you look at how he spends money on facilities. Compared to a lot of owners/teams, Ralph IS very cheap when it comes to that stuff. And if DOES make a difference with regards to success on the field.

 

That is the culture of mediocrity which Ralph has built over 50 years, that some of us reference. No need to acquire/keep top Pro Personnel guys, no need to give players state of the art facilities, therefore no need to win championships. Just come in and collect that check from the league, and the players will come in and collect that check from the owner...

 

RW has spent big money on coaches over the years. Rauch, Saban II, Knox, and Levy were all paid at or near the top of the coaching scale. Polian and TD are two examples of highly paid FO execs.

 

Spending big money on coaches doesn't translate to success either. Coaches become highly paid only AFTER they've had success for the most part. Those that have come into the league highly paid have had their assess handed to them and don't last long. Even those coaches who've had success, went to the top of the pay scale, and changed teams don't usually find success with their new teams. There are a few exceptions to the rule but there are more that don't continue success than those who do.

 

Besides, does anyone honestly believe that any coach out there is gonna come in and make chicken salad out of our chicken sh*t roster immediately? That just doesn't happen in the NFL.

 

As for not spending on facilities that is just not accurate. Ralph was among the first to have a full scale indoor practice facility for example. Their player facilities and executive offices are on par. Now, if you are expecting the Bills to have spanking new facilities like the Giants, Jets, Pats, Ravens, Cowboys, etc. well, given the economic climate of WNY, that's not gonna happen. All the Bills can do is continue to improve the facilities they have. They've done that. Besides, I don't recall reading anything by any former players complaining about the Bills' facilities. If you have, I'd be interested in reading them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

RW has spent big money on coaches over the years. Rauch, Saban II, Knox, and Levy were all paid at or near the top of the coaching scale. Polian and TD are two examples of highly paid FO execs.

 

Spending big money on coaches doesn't translate to success either. Coaches become highly paid only AFTER they've had success for the most part. Those that have come into the league highly paid have had their assess handed to them and don't last long. Even those coaches who've had success, went to the top of the pay scale, and changed teams don't usually find success with their new teams. There are a few exceptions to the rule but there are more that don't continue success than those who do.

 

Besides, does anyone honestly believe that any coach out there is gonna come in and make chicken salad out of our chicken sh*t roster immediately? That just doesn't happen in the NFL.

 

As for not spending on facilities that is just not accurate. Ralph was among the first to have a full scale indoor practice facility for example. Their player facilities and executive offices are on par. Now, if you are expecting the Bills to have spanking new facilities like the Giants, Jets, Pats, Ravens, Cowboys, etc. well, given the economic climate of WNY, that's not gonna happen. All the Bills can do is continue to improve the facilities they have. They've done that. Besides, I don't recall reading anything by any former players complaining about the Bills' facilities. If you have, I'd be interested in reading them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

The only HC I can think of that RW paid the going rate for a top NFL HC was when he hired Chuck Knox, and that was only because he was desperate to bring the fans back.

 

It was nearing the end of the OJ Simpson / Electric Co era with Jim Ringo-Lou Saben and RW couldn't even host a preseason game in Buffalo because fans wouldn't buy tickets. After 1976 (2-12) 1977 (3-11) seasons he finally broke down and hired Chuck Knox.

 

The decade of the 70's was one of frustration by Bills fans, although they had OJ, the team never made it past 9-5 and never won the division and didn't beat the Miami Dolphins the entire decade of the 70's!

 

AFAIK Marv Levy never disclosed his salary, and I'm thinking there was only one HC in the history of the franchise in the NFL that was ever paid even close to the going rate. Then, even Knox left Buffalo because after proving he could field a winner, and he wasn't given a raise. After all RW had the fans back in the seats and the stadium filled again

 

 

 

There actually are head coaches / GM's out there who can improve a team almost immediately, history has shown us this Falcons-Chiefs- Dolphins- Saints recently

 

The sad fact as I see it is RW got extremely lucky once when he promoted Bill Polian to GM (a kind of blind squirrel finding an acorn type of luck) and when he hired he hired an exceeding smart HC in Knox who managed to build a playoff team despite having a moron for a GM (Stew Barber)

 

 

 

I can recall after Dick Jauron was fired someone in the FO at OBD spewing some crap about the Buffalo Bills willing to pay a HC 10 million a year, that didn't happen now did it!

Edited July 25, 2011 by Harvey lives

[K-9]

...There actually are head coaches / GM's out there who can improve a team almost immediately, history has shown us this Falcons-Chiefs- Dolphins- Saints recently ...

 

Nobody suggested that coaches/GMs can't improve a team almost immediately. None of the teams you mention paid those new coaches top dollar when they were hired. They showed it can be done without hiring a Cowher or a Shanahan. That's precisely the point. Thanks for making it.

 

History has also shown us that paying a coach top dollar often DOESN'T turn a franchise around immediately.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

Nobody suggested that coaches/GMs can't improve a team almost immediately. None of the teams you mention paid those new coaches top dollar when they were hired. They showed it can be done without hiring a Cowher or a Shanahan. That's precisely the point. Thanks for making it.

 

History has also shown us that paying a coach top dollar often DOESN'T turn a franchise around immediately.

 

GO BILLS!!!

That wasn't the case with Chuck Knox, and he wasn't over paid, he was just paid about the avg for a top HC at the time. I didn't say anything about paying top dollar, it would be nice to have a coach who was paid the avg salary among the top coaches around the league.

 

Face facts, 3-4 million a year buys you Costco / Walmart coaches nowadays.

[K-9]

That wasn't the case with Chuck Knox, and he wasn't over paid, he was just paid about the avg for a top HC at the time. I didn't say anything about paying top dollar, it would be nice to have a coach who was paid the avg salary among the top coaches around the league.

 

Face facts, 3-4 million a year buys you Costco / Walmart coaches nowadays.

 

Face facts: anything MORE than 3-4m doesn't guarantee a damned thing.

 

How much were those new coaches in Atlanta, Miami, New Orleans, and K.C. paid when hired? How about Mike Tomlin when he came aboard with the Steelers?

 

Conversely, how's that high salary working out for Snyder and Shanahan?

 

Dislike RW all you want for his incompetence over the years. Just don't try to say that he's never spent big money on name coaches and top level execs in the past. He clearly has.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

Face facts: anything MORE than 3-4m doesn't guarantee a damned thing.

 

How much were those new coaches in Atlanta, Miami, New Orleans, and K.C. paid when hired? How about Mike Tomlin when he came aboard with the Steelers?

 

Conversely, how's that high salary working out for Snyder and Shanahan?

 

Dislike RW all you want for his incompetence over the years. Just don't try to say that he's never spent big money on name coaches and top level execs in the past. He clearly has.

 

GO BILLS!!!

It wasn't always about the HC, it was the GM in Atlanta and KC.

 

IDC how you spin it in your mind, RW has NEVER paid top dollar for a head coach or GM, If you know different, then post a link. John Butler wanted a competitive salary, and when he refused to sign the offer that RW gave him, he was promptly fired.

 

All I remember reading about Polian is him needing to fight with RW and JL to spend money on players, stadium improvements, the big screen etc. I'll bet he hasn't need to fight with anyone in Indy for anything. How is it that anytime the Bills found a decent GM-HC who was worth paying top dollar, they didn't keep them.

 

 

You are right tho, teams don't need to spend Dan Snyder type money on a HC, all they need to do is find and hire the right man.... something that has eluded this franchise and its owner for over a decade. Again, I think its mostly because this owner refuses to pay a competitive salary to what the avg top HC's make.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just saying Jeff Lurie was REVILED in Philly prior to acquiring McNabb. Anyone who's ever listend to WIP radio can tell you that.

[Ramius]

The Glazers are vile and widely hated in Tampa Bay due to their notorious cheapness. They've always way underspent the cap, even when they had the money to spend up to it. They are more concerned with Man U.

[JohnC]

Just saying Jeff Lurie was REVILED in Philly prior to acquiring McNabb. Anyone who's ever listend to WIP radio can tell you that.

 

The owner being liked or disliked by the fans or media is not the core issue being discussed here. The fundamental issue is the owner putting together a quality staff from the GM on down and allowing them to do their job. The owner is the person who sets the tone and creates the envrironment for success or failure. For the past 10-15 years the Eagles have been one of the most successful organizations in the NFL in a very rugged division. During that same period the Bills have been one of the worst.

 

There are a variety of owner and management styles. The way to judge a franchise is its record and ability to make the playoffs. It is pointless to compare the records of these two franchises. The comparison is very stark and embarrassing. If you want an explanation then look at the caliber of ownership for each team.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Just saying Jeff Lurie was REVILED in Philly prior to acquiring McNabb. Anyone who's ever listend to WIP radio can tell you that.

Actually he was probably still reviled after the Eagles drafted McNabb.

 

When McNabb was drafted, the selection was booed. The Philly fans for the most part wanted Ricky Williams.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The owner being liked or disliked by the fans or media is not the core issue being discussed here. The fundamental issue is the owner putting together a quality staff from the GM on down and allowing them to do their job. The owner is the person who sets the tone and creates the envrironment for success or failure. For the past 10-15 years the Eagles have been one of the most successful organizations in the NFL in a very rugged division. During that same period the Bills have been one of the worst.

 

There are a variety of owner and management styles. The way to judge a franchise is its record and ability to make the playoffs. It is pointless to compare the records of these two franchises. The comparison is very stark and embarrassing. If you want an explanation then look at the caliber of ownership for each team.

 

 

The point is, that all the personnel moves of that "genius" staff were ridiculed by the fans in Philly prior to the team lucking into Donovan McNabb. You actually had callers wishing that Norman Braman would return as the owner, and IIRC he virtually lost the team due to being a degenerate gambler. It's amazing what luck in finding a HOF QB and the stability that brings to a franchise can do for one's image as an owner/GM. See, Irsay, Bob, Kraft, Robert, et al.

[JohnC]

The point is, that all the personnel moves of that "genius" staff were ridiculed by the fans in Philly prior to the team lucking into Donovan McNabb. You actually had callers wishing that Norman Braman would return as the owner, and IIRC he virtually lost the team due to being a degenerate gambler. It's amazing what luck in finding a HOF QB and the stability that brings to a franchise can do for one's image as an owner/GM. See, Irsay, Bob, Kraft, Robert, et al.

 

You are absoluely right that having an outstanding qb does tremendously impact how a team does. The Eagles drafted McNabb when a lot of fans wanted Ricky Williams. They made the right draft decision. Last year, McNabb was traded to the Skins. The Eagles continued to play well with Vick who they traded for. When Brady was hurt for most of the season two years ago the Patriots continued to win games.

 

When you compare the Colts, Patriots and Eagles to the Bills, without factoring in the qb position, there is almost unanimity that each of these teams have better organizations. Without a doubt each of these winning franchises draft better, make better free agent decisions and manage their operations in a more competent manner. Their cumulative record demonstrates that while the Bills' cumulative record reinforces the point about the caliber of our organization.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

You are absoluely right that having an outstanding qb does tremendously impact how a team does. The Eagles drafted McNabb when a lot of fans wanted Ricky Williams. They made the right draft decision. Last year, McNabb was traded to the Skins. The Eagles continued to play well with Vick who they traded for. When Brady was hurt for most of the season two years ago the Patriots continued to win games.

 

When you compare the Colts, Patriots and Eagles to the Bills, without factoring in the qb position, there is almost unanimity that each of these teams have better organizations. Without a doubt each of these winning franchises draft better, make better free agent decisions and manage their operations in a more competent manner. Their cumulative record demonstrates that while the Bills' cumulative record reinforces the point about the caliber of our organization.

 

 

Football isn't brain surgery. The good teams all, without exception, have good QBs. You get a good QB, and all the other moves will appear better. What's the one thing in common the Colts, Paytoilets and Eagles have? Stability at the QB position. And before we go annointing Michael Vick, let's see what he does this year. The Bills failure over the past decade has been in finding a QB. It should have been, and still should be their number ONE priority. Not OL. Not DL. Not LB, Not secondary or RB or WR. QB. In today's NFL, if you don't have a star-caliber QB, you're sunk.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Not trying to be sarcastic but almost all the other owners. There is one owner who I would put in the wacky category: Al Davis. That is a separate story in itself. From a standpoint of the caliber of organization there is little doubt that the Bills are a lower tiered organization. With Ralph, there is little doubt that he has influenced the organization on how it is structured and staffed. Another comparably mediocre owner is Brown of Cincinatti.

 

If you want me to name my favored prototypical owner I would want to see in western NY it is modeled on the Pittsburgh Rooney family model. It is a well managed organization done in a fiscally responsible manner. Their formula is to hire quality staff and let them do their jobs with little interference. While the Bills' football operation has been ridiculously unstable, their organization has been amazingly stable and successful.

 

Success in the NFL is very easy to determine. Ralph Wilson has owned the team for half a century. Under his stewardship their combined record is 358-406-8. The Bills have not been in the playoffs for 11 consecutive years, this year will make it 12. It is not too difficult to judge the caliber of Buffalo's ownership.

That's a pretty good summary. Wilson has led an unstable, losing franchise by the seat of the pants. Brown is a bit different in that he has been fairly stable, but his approach is a dust bunny filled time capsule from the past of when his father, who was progressive in his day, ran the team. Wilson is more like Ford in Detroit, Rankin Smith when he owned the Falcons, or even a less caustic version of Al Davis. It's just a revolving door of management, hoping good luck happens.

[JohnC]

That's a pretty good summary. Wilson has led an unstable, losing franchise by the seat of the pants. Brown is a bit different in that he has been fairly stable, but his approach is a dust bunny filled time capsule from the past of when his father, who was progressive in his day, ran the team. Wilson is more like Ford in Detroit, Rankin Smith when he owned the Falcons, or even a less caustic version of Al Davis. It's just a revolving door of management, hoping good luck happens.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Brown

 

You make an interesting observation about Paul Brown, the father of Mike Brown. Paul Brown was a pioneer and innovator in the NFL. He is without a doubt one of the pillars of the NFL. His son is a second rate person who runs a second rate organization.

 

With respect to Ralph he is what he is and what he has always has been. Now, he is a very old man who to this day maintains his old school approach in a rapidly changing world of the NFL. It can be frustrating witnessing the antiquated operation of the franchise. But you have to deal with what you got----not what you want. That's life.

[Rob's House]

Just to give a little insight to what I remember about Robert Irsay vs his son Jim Irsay, complete 180 degree difference to start with. The Father Robert was a "hands on'" type of owner like Ralph Wlson-Bill Bidwill, he is the one who moved the team from Baltimore to Indy.

 

Robert Irsay also had ex- Bill OCTed Marchibroda as his head coach of the Colts in the 70's with QB Bert Jones. While the Buffalo Bills were doornats in the 70's the Colts were winning the division (AFC East) under Marchibroda, their only problem was they couldn't get past the Steel curtain and the Pittsburgh Steelers of the late 70's.

 

Robert Irsay gave Bert Jones a home in Baltimore to seal his contract with the Colts, but once Jones left the team Irsay took back the home he had given him (gotta read the fine print). Jones was outraged as were many fans, Irsay didn't care. What Irsay didn't know at the time was that John Elway was a huge Bert Jones fan, so when the Colts drafted John Elway #1 overall he refused to report to the team stating he would play baseball instead. The Colts seeing no other option as Elway signed and started to play MLB they traded away Elway to the Bronco's.

 

 

The son, Jim Irsay watched as the Bills dominated the late 80's,early 90's with Bill Polian as GM, so when he took over the team after his father passed one of the first things he did was to hire away Bill Polian from the Carolina Panthers. The Colts used to be in the same division as the Bills so Jim Irsay knew first hand what Bill Polian did to transform the Bills from the bottom of the division to SB contenders. JIm Irsay named Polian GM pres and stood back and let him build his team into the constant division winning powerhouse it is today.

 

Robert Irsay =rich, nose in everything prick

 

Jim Irsay = smart, "hands off" owner

Jim Irsay's still a prick. He's a little douche bag who had everything handed to him on a silver platter and thinks he's brilliant for it. If he was drowning and I had a float to throw him I might conveniently find I had a bad case of tendinitis in my throwing arm.