Eric moulds

[1B4IDie]

In 1996 Moulds was drafted to be a badly needed deep threat for Jim Kelly. The Bills had big plans that season. Instead, he was a complete waste of space. Kelly was frustrated to distraction by how disinterested Moulds was and the lack of a deep threat severely hamstrung the Bills offense and caused Kelly to go from an AFC Offensive Player of Year candidate in 1995 to retired twelve months later. Youthful indiscretion is understandable, but Moulds would have had no business crying tears of regret for his situation when he contributed to the departure of a HOF QB. Moulds career in Buffalo ended appropriately considering how he shortchanged Kelly.

 

Your seething hatred is palpable. I don't think you have a good perspective to share useful information on this subject.

 

I hope this is good therapy for you. Lord only knows what he did to you but it seems like it's something beyond football.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Your seething hatred is palpable. I don't think you have a good perspective to share useful information on this subject.

 

I hope this is good therapy for you. Lord only knows what he did to you but it seems like it's something beyond football.

Yes… like several other posters here, we can only hope that this constant venting is somehow carthartic and therapeutic for DD.

 

You'll never convince me that posters like he are well-adjusted, happy human beings.

 

 

[Defend Greece]

Your seething hatred is palpable. I don't think you have a good perspective to share useful information on this subject.

 

I hope this is good therapy for you. Lord only knows what he did to you but it seems like it's something beyond football.

Yeah this is one of the best receivers in bills history

[C.Biscuit97]

The funniest part is to this point in their careers, Lee Evans has outproduced Moulds with FAR WORSE Qbs. Yet, there are fans who want to run Evans out of town.

 

The biggest shame is that Moulds and Evans didn't get to play longer together. They were the prefect compliments. Hopefully, Stevie can play the Moulds' role.

[stony]

You are way off.

You might want to use something other than your faulty memory as a source of information.

 

Let's just start with some basic stats that show you have no recollection of Eric Moulds' actual production.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MoulEr00.htm

 

Yeah, if you really read into those stats, he had some pitiful years. 2003, 1TD. A couple of 5TD years even with some high receptions. It's just some very, mediocre TD stats for a HOFer. He was very-good for a few years and I really enjoyed him as a Bill. Just can't make the case for HOF.

[1B4IDie]

The funniest part is to this point in their careers, Lee Evans has outproduced Moulds with FAR WORSE Qbs. Yet, there are fans who want to run Evans out of town.

 

The biggest shame is that Moulds and Evans didn't get to play longer together. They were the prefect compliments. Hopefully, Stevie can play the Moulds' role.

Not completely true Moulds got 5,900 of his 6500 yards in 5 seasons. 5 900+ yard seasons and two 1300+ yard seasons and 38 TDs.

Lee has 2 900+ yard seasons and 0 1300+ yard seasons but has 5 more TDs at 43. His 5,900 yards came over 7 years.

Moulds stats from the 5 year stretch as a #1 receiver is what you expect from a #1 receiver.

Lee's stats from the 5 year stretch as a #1 receiver is what you expect from a #2

[BuffOrange]

In 1996 Moulds was drafted to be a badly needed deep threat for Jim Kelly. The Bills had big plans that season. Instead, he was a complete waste of space. Kelly was frustrated to distraction by how disinterested Moulds was and the lack of a deep threat severely hamstrung the Bills offense and caused Kelly to go from an AFC Offensive Player of Year candidate in 1995 to retired twelve months later. Youthful indiscretion is understandable, but Moulds would have had no business crying tears of regret for his situation when he contributed to the departure of a HOF QB. Moulds career in Buffalo ended appropriately considering how he shortchanged Kelly.

 

Oh please tell me this is a joke. Andre Reed was hurt for the better part of '95, which made Kelly's primary target Billy freaking Brooks in his "AFC OPY candidate" year. But his decline in '96 was the fault of a rookie WR who obviously was never supposed to start after they signed Quinn Early in FA? That's brilliant.

Edited July 26, 2011 by BuffOrange

[1B4IDie]

Yeah, if you really read into those stats, he had some pitiful years. 2003, 1TD. A couple of 5TD years even with some high receptions. It's just some very, mediocre TD stats for a HOFer. He was very-good for a few years and I really enjoyed him as a Bill. Just can't make the case for HOF.

I don't think anyone is saying he should be in the HOF. I think the point is he had HOF talent if the circumstances were different he may have had the stats and playoff and SB resume to support it.

[NoName]

To suggest that Lee Evans was a better receiver than Moulds does not make sense. Lee Evans on most team would NOT be a #1. For crying out loud T.O. took his number 1 spot in his first year and T.O. was almost on the dark side of 30. Moulds could do it all. Underneath, deep, good route runner, dropped a few here and there but not as bad as T.O.

 

I remember during an interview in the early 2000's, T.O. named Eric Moulds as one of the top 3 receivers in the game.

 

During Moulds first season, I can remember Marv Levy saying something like Moulds was one of the fastest player he had ever seen on the bills. We can argue until the cows come home but I think its safe to say that the vast majority of Bills fans KNOW that outside of Andre Reed, Moulds was the best receiver in Bills history.

[Jauronimo]

Oh please tell me this is a joke. Andre Reed was hurt for the better part of '95, which made Kelly's primary target Billy freaking Brooks in his "AFC OPY candidate" year. But his decline in '96 was the fault of a rookie WR who obviously was never supposed to start after they signed Quinn Early in FA? That's brilliant.

Revisionist history at its worst. Everyone knows that Kelly retired because Tim Tindale failed to become the 2,000 yd back we all expected him to become after his standout career at the University of Western Ontario. After an impressive rookie campaign in which Tindale rushed for 16 yards off of 5 carries, Tindale gained only 49 yards in his second season. Kelly cited Tindale's utter indifference for Tim's lack of production. The Tindale-Kelly feud reached a boiling point late in the 96' season when Tindale turned his chair around and watched the wall for 90 minutes during a film session. In disgust, Kelly reportedly marched into Levy's office and delivered an ultimatum - one of them had to go.

 

Not willing to give up on Tindale after his strong rookie performance Marv stuck with the young RB and Kelly retired. What seemed like a shrewd business decision at the time, however, blew up in Marv's face as Tindale recorded a career low 0 yards and 0 carries in the 97' season and subsequently retired. Blaming Kelly's retirement on anyone other than Tim Tindale is absolutely absurd.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Jauronimo

[Defend Greece]

I don't know how to add links but basically this is saying that even at the end of his career e. Moulds had some of the best hands in the nfl > NFL Football

Best and Worst Hands in the NFL

 

 

 

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06-05-2006, 09:45 PM   #1

CantStop85

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Join Date: Jul 2005

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Best and Worst Hands in the NFL

Pretty interesting article from ESPN insider:

 

One of the things I most enjoy in researching football scientifically is debunking traditional football wisdom. How many times have you seen a sure-handed receiver drop a pass, only to have the announcer say something like, "That almost never happens. He'll catch that pass 99 times out of 100."

 

I always wondered if that was true. Do the best receivers catch 99 percent of the passes thrown their way?

 

As a result, I tracked the number of drops every qualifying receiver had during the 2005 season (minimum of 40 catches to qualify). I also divided the number of drops by the number of catchable passes to come up with a dropped pass percentage.

 

Here are the top 20 receivers in dropped pass percentage from the 2005 season:

 

Dropped Passes

Player Team Dropped passes Dropped pass %

Houshmandzadeh Cincinnati 3 2.6%

Marvin Harrison Indianapolis 4 3.2%

Bobby Engram Seattle 4 4.3%

Jason Witten Dallas 4 4.5%

Steve Smith Carolina 7 4.7%

Scottie Vines Detroit 3 4.8%

Tony Gonzalez Kanas City 6 4.9%

Eric Parker San Diego 4 4.9%

K. Johnson Dallas 6 5.1%

Joe Jurevicius Seattle 4 5.1%

Eric Moulds Buffalo 7 5.5%

Keenan McCardell San Diego 6 5.6%

Reggie Wayne Indianapolis 7 5.7%

Lee Evans Buffalo 5 5.9%

Jabar Gaffney Houston 5 6.3%

Larry Fitzgerald Arizona 10 6.4%

Chris Cooley Washington 6 6.5%

Marcus Pollard Detroit 5 6.7%

Deion Branch New England 8 6.7%

Jermaine Wiggins Minnesota 6 6.7%

 

 

If last season is any indication, the best receivers don't drop only one pass for every 99 they catch. The best ratio is more like one drop for every 40 catches.

 

It was no surprise to see Marvin Harrison near the top of this list, but I was somewhat surprised to see T.J. Houshmandzadeh rank No. 1 in this category. Houshmandzadeh is known as a very good possession receiver, but this chart shows he may be one of the best.

 

Steve Smith's reputation as a home run threat is well earned, but having dropped only seven passes in 150 catchable attempts shows his hands are certainly underrated.

 

I also found it interesting to see two Seattle receivers -- Joe Jurevicius and Bobby Engram -- in the top 20. Having two of the most sure-handed receivers in the NFL certainly was a big reason Seattle was finally able to become a championship contender in 2005.

 

Let's also examine how the worst receivers in the league did (also a minimum of 40 catches to qualify).

 

Dropped Passes-2

Player Team Dropped passes Dropped pass %

Ernest Wilford Jacksonville 13 19.1%

Justin McCareins NY Jets 16 16.7%

Reggie Brown Philadelphia 13 16.3%

Roy Williams Detroit 13 14.6%

Brian Finneran Atlanta 11 14.3%

Erron Kinney Tennessee 10 14.1%

Antonio Bryant Cleveland 16 13.9%

M. Muhammad Chicago 18 13.6%

Greg Lewis Philadelphia 13 12.9%

Eddie Kennison Kansas City 14 12.8%

Randy McMichael Miami 12 12.0%

L.J. Smith Philadelphia 12 11.8%

Alge Crumpler Atlanta 13 11.5%

Mark Clayton Baltimore 9 11.3%

Donte' Stallworth New Orleans 14 11.2%

Chris Chambers Miami 17 11.0%

Todd Heap Baltimore 11 10.4%

Terrell Owens Philadelphia 9 10.2%

Plaxico Burress NY Giants 17 10.2%

Ben Troupe Tennessee 8 10.1%

 

 

This chart shows that Ernest Wilford dropped nearly one out of every five passes thrown to him last year. Despite this abysmal drop percentage, Wilford still ranked fourth in the league in total yards per catch attempt. Most of Wilford's drops came on accurate passes, so he has a ton of upside for the upcoming season.

 

Two highly touted rookie receivers -- Reggie Brown and Mark Clayton -- also found their way on this list. While their drop percentages were fairly close, Clayton was actually much more sure-handed when considering the accuracy of the passes each receiver dropped.

 

The accuracy of a pass is a subjective measurement, but I use a set of rules to hopefully limit its subjective nature. The rule of thumb I use to grade the accuracy of a pass is whether the receiver is forced to reach behind or dive to make the catch.

 

I segment dropped passes into three categories. The first is an accurate dropped pass. The blame for dropping an accurate pass falls completely on the wide receiver. The second is an inaccurate dropped pass. These are passes that are thrown outside of the receiver's catching frame, but are still catchable. A receiver may not catch all of these passes but the best ones still catch most of them.

 

The third type of dropped pass is what I call stripped/drop passes. These are passes a receiver gets his hands on, but has the ball stripped away by the defender for an incompletion. Most scoring systems list these as passes defensed. However, since the receiver got his hands on the ball and had it stripped away, I figure it should be segmented away from the standard pass defensed (i.e., when a DB knocks the pass down before it gets to the receiver).

 

So how did Clayton and Brown fare in these categories? Four of Clayton's nine total drops came on accurate passes, while only three came on inaccurate passes and two on stripped passes. Meanwhile, nine of Brown's 13 drops came on accurate passes, while only four were due to inaccurate passes and none were due to stripped passes. The nine accurate pass drops tied Brown for fifth-worst in the league in that category last year.

 

Having a pair of good pass-catching hands is a natural talent, but as Raymond Berry proved years ago, it is also something that can be improved upon with practice. If these numbers are any indication, Reggie Brown has the most room for improvement of any second-year wide receiver.

 

KC Joyner, aka The Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. His latest book, Scientific Football 2006, is now available for preorder at his Web site, http://thefootballscientist.com.

[BuffOrange]

Revisionist history at its worst. Everyone knows that Kelly retired because Tim Tindale failed to become the 2,000 yd back we all expected him to become after his standout career at the University of Western Ontario. After an impressive rookie campaign in which Tindale rushed for 16 yards off of 5 carries, Tindale gained only 49 yards in his second season. Kelly cited Tindale's utter indifference for Tim's lack of production. The Tindale-Kelly feud reached a boiling point late in the 96' season when Tindale turned his chair around and watched the wall for 90 minutes during a film session. In disgust, Kelly reportedly marched into Levy's office and delivered an ultimatum - one of them had to go.

 

Not willing to give up on Tindale after his strong rookie performance Marv stuck with the young RB and Kelly retired. What seemed like a shrewd business decision at the time, however, blew up in Marv's face as Tindale recorded a career low 0 yards and 0 carries in the 97' season and subsequently retired. Blaming Kelly's retirement on anyone other than Tim Tindale is absolutely absurd.

 

Indeed, how could I forget this? Thanks for setting the record straight.

[1B4IDie]

To suggest that Lee Evans was a better receiver than Moulds does not make sense. Lee Evans on most team would NOT be a #1. For crying out loud T.O. took his number 1 spot in his first year and T.O. was almost on the dark side of 30. Moulds could do it all. Underneath, deep, good route runner, dropped a few here and there but not as bad as T.O.

 

I remember during an interview in the early 2000's, T.O. named Eric Moulds as one of the top 3 receivers in the game.

 

During Moulds first season, I can remember Marv Levy saying something like Moulds was one of the fastest player he had ever seen on the bills. We can argue until the cows come home but I think its safe to say that the vast majority of Bills fans KNOW that outside of Andre Reed, Moulds was the best receiver in Bills history.

There's just one Dick that's pushing the strange "Moulds was average at best" agenda.

I think the majority agree that Moulds was a very talented player.

[BADOLBILZ]

There's just one Dick that's pushing the strange "Moulds was average at best" agenda.

I think the majority agree that Moulds was a very talented player.

 

I never said anything remotely close to "Moulds was average at best". Never happened. He was a good receiver. There is a big split between good and great (HOF talent). I pointed that out pretty clearly with the example that there are 3 players very comparable to Moulds on Baltimore's roster right now. Good receivers who don't consistently make big plays in the passing game are not that special.

 

Defend Greece used the same tactic, claiming I said Peerless Price was a better receiver than Moulds. Didn't happen. Price was clearly not as good as Moulds, and he wasn't ever expected to be. I just used Price to point out that Moulds' 2002 season was not that special. It was the second most productive of his career and yet he finished with a ypc below his modest career average.

 

Moulds was a good receiver. He wasn't a borderline HOF talent. Not even close.

[Defend Greece]

There's just one Dick that's pushing the strange "Moulds was average at best" agenda.

I think the majority agree that Moulds was a very talented player.

No pun intended : )

[BADOLBILZ]

So in the category of NOT dropped passes, Moulds was top 20 in 2004?

 

If that doesn't spell HOF talent......well I just don't know what does.

 

You guys do understand that the HOF is for GREAT players.

 

Finishing in the top 20 in catch percentage is swell. An 11.9 ypr is also swell. Greatness? Perhaps not.

 

He wasn't a great playmaker and he wasn't a great posession receiver. There are no stats to support your position that he was a great player.......and there is a reason for that.

 

No pun intended : )

 

Just because Moulds knew your mama when she worked on Lyle doesn't make you his son. Face the stats kid.

[Defend Greece]

So in the category of NOT dropped passes, Moulds was top 20 in 2004?

 

If that doesn't spell HOF talent......well I just don't know what does.

 

You guys do understand that the HOF is for GREAT players.

 

Finishing in the top 20 in catch percentage is swell. An 11.9 ypr is also swell. Greatness? Perhaps not.

 

He wasn't a great playmaker and he wasn't a great posession receiver. There are no stats to support your position that he was a great player.......and there is a reason for that.

 

 

 

Just because Moulds knew your mama when she worked on Lyle doesn't make you his son. Face the stats kid.

Yeah great players hold NFL post season records, club records, and catch 100 balls, dude read the post didn't say he should be in hall of fame but if you watched him play you would have seen his talent.

The point of the post was resigning him for 5 yards

[BADOLBILZ]

Yeah great players hold NFL post season records, club records, and catch 100 balls, dude read the post didn't say he should be in hall of fame but if you watched him play you would have seen his talent.

The point of the post was resigning him for 5 yards

 

See how I put you on the backpedal like that? The mama joke was just to get an extra yard separation, much like an Eric Moulds push off. That's an old school TBD beatdown you just got.

 

Next time, mind your biz.

 

I responded to Serious ridiculous claim about Moulds being a HOF talent. You decided to chime in your baseless support. By the end of the thread you are rambling about how it wasn't the point of your thread.......well tell that to Serious, he hijacked it. That's what he does, he's a who'er like that. He wants attention, so he takes your idea, jacks it up and gets responses.

 

Just so happens, I'm in charge of making sure Bills players are remembered for what they really were, so he got his needed feedback.

 

On a side not, Derrick Mason just got released. Let's sign him for the one pass and save a down.

[NoName]

See how I put you on the backpedal like that? The mama joke was just to get an extra yard separation, much like an Eric Moulds push off. That's an old school TBD beatdown you just got.

 

Next time, mind your biz.

 

I responded to Serious ridiculous claim about Moulds being a HOF talent. You decided to chime in your baseless support. By the end of the thread you are rambling about how it wasn't the point of your thread.......well tell that to Serious, he hijacked it. That's what he does, he's a who'er like that. He wants attention, so he takes your idea, jacks it up and gets responses.

 

Just so happens, I'm in charge of making sure Bills players are remembered for what they really were, so he got his needed feedback.

 

On a side not, Derrick Mason just got released. Let's sign him for the one pass and save a down.

 

I think its clear that this is become a thread for DICK to live up to his name. The receivers on Baltimore comparison does not make sense at all. On so many levels and its not worth to get into it. We all know he was a very talented receiver. Stats do not always paint the picture. Moulds and Price's season big year in 02 (I think) should prove that out.

[BADOLBILZ]

I think its clear that this is become a thread for DICK to live up to his name. The receivers on Baltimore comparison does not make sense at all. On so many levels and its not worth to get into it. We all know he was a very talented receiver. Stats do not always paint the picture. Moulds and Price's season big year in 02 (I think) should prove that out.

 

I was being kind to Moulds. Boldin and Mason will likely finish with much better numbers than Moulds, despite the fact that they had their share of Matt Leinart, Kyle Boller, etc.. Housh is lesser, but if you ground the 3 of them up and divided by three you'd have Eric Moulds. Big receivers who put up a lot of catches and yards but didn't consistently make big plays.