DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 First of all I'm not a Poz hater... but how can you show a 5 minute video from 1 game in the season to prove a players worth? Your video doesnt even show any bengal scoring plays so its obviously biased. Showing that definitely doesnt hold any water in this argument. Couple things to note... I've already admitted that a single game film isnt perfect, but only that it shows a good cross section of different types of plays. I wish there was more film of Poz out there, but there isnt. This was made by a Giants fan. This tape was simply to combat the statements being made about his play that were not based in any fact. The way some posters make it sound, he's just a bum that makes every single play way downfield. That simply isn't the case. Second, the Bengals only scored once on the ground that game, a 1yd run by Benson. Everything else came through the air to WRs, and they also had an INT return for TD. This tape centered around plays that Poz was, or should have been, involved in. The majority of us supporters are not saying we should "break the bank for this all pro", but simply that he is a solid player, and good teams dont let solid players go unless they already have depth at that position. Which we DEFINITELY do not. Actually, I think one can replace their average players with better players too. No need to impose limits on your thinking that only replacing the worst player is a possibility. That said, there is no need to replace an average player with a bad player either. As far as my HoF comment: The oft repeated comment that "you can't have HoF players at every position" is simply defeatist talk. It's an attempt to paper over the issues by suggesting that the Bills cannot get anyone better than an average player, so they might as well suck it up and re-sign average players rather than consider an alternative. The best way to make sure the Bills continue to be a bottom feeder is to maintain the status quo. Status quo for the Bills is sucking, NOT being solid. Status quo for the Bills is letting good players walk and not having replacements for them. Sure a team "can" replace average players with better players. But the Bills do not have that option this year. There are no better LBs in FA this year. Who do you suggest we can bring in THIS YEAR to replace Poz? Letting Poz walk and not having a replacement IS MAINTAINING STATUS QUO FOR THE BILLS. If this team EVER wants to improve, they must re-sign their solid players which they drafted. You can NOT turn over positions every 4-5 years because the guy isnt a HoFer. Not re-signing Poz is something the old Bills would have done and that would have kept the tradition of mediocrity alive.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 This is your evidence on the type of player Poz is? I humbly rest my case. Good Lord, man, the guy is just not a very good linebacker. So your argument for keeping "Puz" is that you can't have a Hall of Famer at every position? Underwhelming. As is the "great video" of his average, but hustling, play. DrDareustein posts video in an attempt to support his argument. And the response is that the video is underwhelming or even contrary to his point? IMO, the video is strongly supportive of his point… but that's immaterial and I won't debate over this because it's besides the point. The actual point is that it's pretty weak to criticize or question his video argument. How about presenting your own video to rebut his? Dareustein is doing all the work and the response is short, dismissive replies? We have to do better in cases like this. If we can't/won't/don't have the time to present opposing video, we should at least be respectful of his efforts or suspend replies until there's time to make a fair response.
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Thanks SJBF! At least someone is here to have a real discussion. I appreciate it. Thats all Im trying to say. "Fan Opinion of a Player's Performance", this far into the offseason, is bunk unless there is tape to prove it. I'm not going to argue with people based off of their memory of how things might have gone. That video clearly refutes the entire "He makes all of his tackles downfield" criticism. It even refutes the "He cant get off blocks" criticism. If anyone wants to show me that he is so bad we should let him walk, then post some video of him blowing plays.
Mr. WEO Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Couple things to note... I've already admitted that a single game film isnt perfect, but only that it shows a good cross section of different types of plays. I wish there was more film of Poz out there, but there isnt. This was made by a Giants fan. This tape was simply to combat the statements being made about his play that were not based in any fact. The way some posters make it sound, he's just a bum that makes every single play way downfield. That simply isn't the case. Second, the Bengals only scored once on the ground that game, a 1yd run by Benson. Everything else came through the air to WRs, and they also had an INT return for TD. This tape centered around plays that Poz was, or should have been, involved in. The majority of us supporters are not saying we should "break the bank for this all pro", but simply that he is a solid player, and good teams dont let solid players go unless they already have depth at that position. Which we DEFINITELY do not. What, no video form the Balt game? Pitts? Status quo for the Bills is sucking, NOT being solid. Status quo for the Bills is letting good players walk and not having replacements for them. Sure a team "can" replace average players with better players. But the Bills do not have that option this year. There are no better LBs in FA this year. Who do you suggest we can bring in THIS YEAR to replace Poz? Letting Poz walk and not having a replacement IS MAINTAINING STATUS QUO FOR THE BILLS. If this team EVER wants to improve, they must re-sign their solid players which they drafted. You can NOT turn over positions every 4-5 years because the guy isnt a HoFer. Not re-signing Poz is something the old Bills would have done and that would have kept the tradition of mediocrity alive. Like Kelasy?
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) What, no video form the Balt game? Pitts? Feel free to make/post them. The Bengals is all I could find. Like Kelasy? Like McGee, Evans, and Parrish. Like the way we'll need to re-sign Wood, Levitre, and Stevie Johnson. Like the way its an absolute must to re-sign(and probably re-negotiate this year with) Kyle Williams. Unfortunately, there havent been many other draft picks from the past handful of years that have been even solid players. Which pushes my point even further. When we DO happen to have an at least solid player from past drafts, it's imperative to this team to keep them around. Edited July 21, 2011 by DrDareustein
Mr. WEO Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Feel free to make/post them. The Bengals is all I could find. Like McGee, Evans, and Parrish. Like the way we'll need to re-sign Wood, Levitre, and Stevie Johnson. Like the way its an absolute must to re-sign(and probably re-negotiate this year with) Kyle Williams. Unfortunately, there havent been many other draft picks from the past handful of years that have been even solid players. Which pushes my point even further. When we DO happen to have an at least solid player from past drafts, it's imperative to this team to keep them around. He can't be found in those.... But I agree, re-sign Poz as...Poz, not as Urlacher.
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) He can't be found in those.... But I agree, re-sign Poz as...Poz, not as Urlacher. I'll believe it once I see the actual game tape, sorry. Not taking anyone's word on performance. Not sure how many Bears games youve watched over the past few seasons, but there isnt a lot of difference between the two. We're in agreeance that the Bills should not break the bank on Poz (a la Clements). But if Urlacher were a Bill, playing behind our DLine and with no other LB help, the same dummies would be calling him a bum and saying we should let him walk as well... Edited July 21, 2011 by DrDareustein
Mr. WEO Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 I'll believe it once I see the actual game tape, sorry. Not taking anyone's word on performance. Not sure how many Bears games youve watched over the past few seasons, but there isnt a lot of difference between the two. We're in agreeance that the Bills should not break the bank on Poz (a la Clements). But if Urlacher were a Bill, playing behind our DLine and with no other LB help, the same dummies would be calling him a bum and saying we should let him walk as well... I will admit the beauty of your argument is that it cannot be disproven. He will never play behind a great D-line while he is with the Bills, so you can always make this claim.
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Since Im the only one backing up his claims in this thread, I submit to you Film #2... http://www.nfl.com/videos/buffalo-bills/09000d5d81bdc2df/Playbook-How-Bills-can-get-first-win This was a piece done on NFLN titled "How the Bills get their first win", and it centers around... Guess Who?!? POZ It shows how well Poz actually plays his position, while the rest of the defense (and especially TORBOR and KELSAY) absolutely suck. There is one play that Sharpe shows where Poz gets stuck inside, but he is simply filling his hole. The play goes to the outside where Kelsay is no where to be found... But the guy is a bum, right?... Save the one line replies. If you cant come up with some of your own footage, or a well thought out response, dont bother.
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 I will admit the beauty of your argument is that it cannot be disproven. He will never play behind a great D-line while he is with the Bills, so you can always make this claim. Agree with the first part, it's kind of a "cute" argument at best, but true. Disagree on the second. With the addition of Dareus to Williams, and if Carrington/Troup continue to develop, we may have a pretty decent line pretty quickly. After watching him play the past couple of years, I feel safely confident that Dareus will be great for us. I also wouldnt be surprised to see Buddy draft DL at some point in every one of his drafts. Only place to go is up. Now, here is the beauty to re-signing Poz to a reasonable contract. He plays for the next couple of years behind a (assumed) much improved line, and with (assumed) better LB help. If he is then an obvious weak point, we can focus on upgrading his position because there will not be as many holes on the defense. Im much happier creating a hole with an improved Front 7, then letting a starter walk right now.
billsfreak Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 What, no video form the Balt game? Pitts? I am pretty sure that Stevie "Stone Hands" Johnson burned the tape from the Pittsburgh game, so that isn't going to happen.
Scrappy Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 4-12, ~ worst run defense in the league. You still need to go to film to see where they problem is ?
wnyguy Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Wow, you are not only a "rookie" in status on this board but you are also a "rookie" in learning anything at all about the game of football. While it's true that I have a rookie status I am far from a rookie when it comes to watching football and understanding the game. Poz is simply an average linebacker that rarely makes any plays at the line of scrimmage. The video posted proves just that. Now if my making over 3 thousand posts lends more credibility towards my opinions you will just have to wait a few more years.
K-9 Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Thanks SJBF! At least someone is here to have a real discussion. I appreciate it. Thats all Im trying to say. "Fan Opinion of a Player's Performance", this far into the offseason, is bunk unless there is tape to prove it. I'm not going to argue with people based off of their memory of how things might have gone. That video clearly refutes the entire "He makes all of his tackles downfield" criticism. It even refutes the "He cant get off blocks" criticism. If anyone wants to show me that he is so bad we should let him walk, then post some video of him blowing plays. I've been reluctant to engage in any debate regarding the Cinci video. I'll just say that I agree with the Giants fan that posted it to Youtube: it's a package that shows highlights and lowlights. Pretty equal in terms of decent/not so decent plays. In other words it confirms his status as an average player. A number of weeks ago in response to your request, in another Poz thread, I posted a short video of him against the Jets at home last season. You never responded so I assumed it was a waste of time. I mention that just to show that some of us were willing to find video that confirms our suspicions that he isn't anything more than run of the mill. Suffice to say that we look at football somewhat differently. You see an LB that constantly has OLmen taking five yard runs at him and blame it on the DLmen. That's true at times. I see an LB that can't beat his man to the play more often than not. LBs, especially ILBs, HAVE to take on OLmen, shed them, and make plays. Routinely. Poz doesn't do that often enough. ILBs also have to beat the play to the hole more often that not to be effective. I don't see Poz doing that consistently enough, either. You see a pass interference call in the EZ as a "good" penalty to take. I see an LB woefully out of position to begin with because he was slow in recognizing the play. Confining our critique of Poz's ability to short snippets of game video isn't very convincing one way or the other. But I am going on far more than just "memory" as you suggest. I've watched plays over and over and over since his rookie year and, regardless of scheme or in-game situation and personnel package involved, I am not convinced he's anything special in terms of physical ability. Like I've been saying, keep him for his leadership, professionalism, tenacity, and other intangibles. That's important. GO BILLS!!!
Billsrhody Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 This one demonstrates his lack of speed and quickness... Not Very Fast This one demonstrates how he takes poor angles Didnt Pass Geometry This one demonstrates what happens when your middle linebacker gets held at the line and it isnt called The Jets Suck The only real point I'm trying to prove is that you can find anything to support whatever argument you have no matter how ridiculous it is.. I for one hope we resign Poz, but I like him more as a figure than I do as a player
DrDawkinstein Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) I've been reluctant to engage in any debate regarding the Cinci video. I'll just say that I agree with the Giants fan that posted it to Youtube: it's a package that shows highlights and lowlights. Pretty equal in terms of decent/not so decent plays. In other words it confirms his status as an average player. A number of weeks ago in response to your request, in another Poz thread, I posted a short video of him against the Jets at home last season. You never responded so I assumed it was a waste of time. I mention that just to show that some of us were willing to find video that confirms our suspicions that he isn't anything more than run of the mill. Suffice to say that we look at football somewhat differently. You see an LB that constantly has OLmen taking five yard runs at him and blame it on the DLmen. That's true at times. I see an LB that can't beat his man to the play more often than not. LBs, especially ILBs, HAVE to take on OLmen, shed them, and make plays. Routinely. Poz doesn't do that often enough. ILBs also have to beat the play to the hole more often that not to be effective. I don't see Poz doing that consistently enough, either. You see a pass interference call in the EZ as a "good" penalty to take. I see an LB woefully out of position to begin with because he was slow in recognizing the play. Confining our critique of Poz's ability to short snippets of game video isn't very convincing one way or the other. But I am going on far more than just "memory" as you suggest. I've watched plays over and over and over since his rookie year and, regardless of scheme or in-game situation and personnel package involved, I am not convinced he's anything special in terms of physical ability. Like I've been saying, keep him for his leadership, professionalism, tenacity, and other intangibles. That's important. GO BILLS!!! Im sorry if I missed that post, I'll chalk it up to having to deal with the extremists You and I, while on opposite side of the fence, are actually pretty close to that same fence, and therefore pretty close to agreeing. I think he's a pretty average to solid player. You think he's pretty average to sucky. We're probably both right in our assessment of his past performance. We just see the causes of those performances differently. As far as everyone's issues with the video I used, I did what I could to find COMPLETE GAME footage and the Bengals was as close as I could get. I did not cherry pick a highlight reel. I wanted film that would show his play whether it was good or bad, and I believe that's fairly accurate for the clip I posted. Just like in the Von Miller threads of yore, Im willing to base my opinion on what he shows on the field. Had the entire Bengals film been clips of him blowing plays, Id call him out as horrible. But that's not the case. Bottom-line though (where we both agree), to answer this thread, the Bills should keep him at a fair contract. Go Bills! Edited July 21, 2011 by DrDareustein
Mr. WEO Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 I've been reluctant to engage in any debate regarding the Cinci video. I'll just say that I agree with the Giants fan that posted it to Youtube: it's a package that shows highlights and lowlights. Pretty equal in terms of decent/not so decent plays. In other words it confirms his status as an average player. A number of weeks ago in response to your request, in another Poz thread, I posted a short video of him against the Jets at home last season. You never responded so I assumed it was a waste of time. I mention that just to show that some of us were willing to find video that confirms our suspicions that he isn't anything more than run of the mill. Suffice to say that we look at football somewhat differently. You see an LB that constantly has OLmen taking five yard runs at him and blame it on the DLmen. That's true at times. I see an LB that can't beat his man to the play more often than not. LBs, especially ILBs, HAVE to take on OLmen, shed them, and make plays. Routinely. Poz doesn't do that often enough. ILBs also have to beat the play to the hole more often that not to be effective. I don't see Poz doing that consistently enough, either. You see a pass interference call in the EZ as a "good" penalty to take. I see an LB woefully out of position to begin with because he was slow in recognizing the play. Confining our critique of Poz's ability to short snippets of game video isn't very convincing one way or the other. But I am going on far more than just "memory" as you suggest. I've watched plays over and over and over since his rookie year and, regardless of scheme or in-game situation and personnel package involved, I am not convinced he's anything special in terms of physical ability. Like I've been saying, keep him for his leadership, professionalism, tenacity, and other intangibles. That's important. GO BILLS!!! This is by far the best post yet on this topic. Wish I wrote it.
K-9 Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Im sorry if I missed that post, I'll chalk it up to having to deal with the extremists You and I, while on opposite side of the fence, are actually pretty close to that same fence, and therefore pretty close to agreeing. I think he's a pretty average to solid player. You think he's pretty average to sucky. We're probably both right in our assessment of his past performance. We just see the causes of those performances differently. Bottom-line though (where we both agree), to answer this thread, the Bills should keep him at a fair contract. Go Bills! I'd say that's a classy and accurate way of describing our positions. As to the matter of the "fair" contract, like we discussed last week, I wish I knew what that number is. We'll soon find out. GO BILLS!!! This is by far the best post yet on this topic. Wish I wrote it. Are you feeling ok? GO BILLS!!! ... The only real point I'm trying to prove is that you can find anything to support whatever argument you have no matter how ridiculous it is.. I for one hope we resign Poz, but I like him more as a figure than I do as a player ^This. Good post. GO BILLS!!! Edited July 21, 2011 by K-9
26CornerBlitz Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 I'd rather have Nick Barnett instead of Poz assuming the Packers let him go.
dave mcbride Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 2009: http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2009&pos=LB&season=reg 2010: http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2010&pos=LB&season=reg While Poz dropped off a good bit in 2010, he was second overall in WPA (Win Probability Added) among all linebackers in 2009. "Win Probability Added" explained: http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/01/win-probability-added-wpa-explained.html He was 18th overall in 2008 as well. He's a good player.
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