Illegal hits, playing with concussions will continue

[Beerball]

Nobody wants flag football, but I think we all want players to lead 'normal' lives after their careers are over.

 

link

 

When the Eagles reconvened for practice the following Wednesday, Hobbs said the team was shown a film about illegal hits that would result in fines and suspensions.

 

"Not 10 minutes after that film, we went into the defensive meeting and the D coordinator got up and said, 'Nothing changes about us. Nothing changes in your guys' mentality,'" Hobbs said. "I mean, we all knew that anyway because we want jobs. I don't really see anybody with a job who can't tackle."

 

Dorsey Levens producing documentary

[KD in CA]

Nobody wants flag football, but I think we all want players to lead 'normal' lives after their careers are over.

 

And that's the conundrum. The evidence is mounting that you simply can't have one without the other.

[Doc]

And that's the conundrum. The evidence is mounting that you simply can't have one without the other.

Yep. At the speed they play, it's hard to use textbook form and get legal shots all the time. Hiding/not hiding concussions however is something the players can control.

[DrDawkinstein]

And that's the conundrum. The evidence is mounting that you simply can't have one without the other.

 

 

Yep. At the speed they play, it's hard to use textbook form and get legal shots all the time. Hiding/not hiding concussions however is something the players can control.

 

 

It is NOT the NFL's goal to change the game to the point that people arent hitting at all.

 

Everyone knows that in a contact sport, there are going to be some injuries. They are simply unavoidable.

 

The point the NFL is trying to make is that, over the last 20 years, a certain "technique" has been adopted by players which DIRECTLY leads to severe head and spinal injuries.

 

That "technique" is NOT proper tackling. Players can still be injured while trying to tackle properly, however the chance of injury occuring is greatly reduced. The problem the players have, is that proper tackling is not only more difficult (and they want the easy way out), but also the players feel it is not as "punishing" or "highlight reel worthy". This shows how little the players know about their own game. Proper tackling can result in just as big, and highlight reel worthy hits.

 

What it comes down to is simple: The NFL is saying "Tackle properly so you dont kill yourselves", and the players are answering with "WAH! We dont wanna!".

 

The League needs to get real serious about this and start suspending players, and also fining coaches/owners. No one is saying not to hit anymore. They're simply saying to hit correctly. As someone who played football for 12 years, and Rugby for 6, its not that difficult to do.

[KD in CA]

It is NOT the NFL's goal to change the game to the point that people arent hitting at all.

 

Everyone knows that in a contact sport, there are going to be some injuries. They are simply unavoidable.

 

The point the NFL is trying to make is that, over the last 20 years, a certain "technique" has been adopted by players which DIRECTLY leads to severe head and spinal injuries.

 

That "technique" is NOT proper tackling. Players can still be injured while trying to tackle properly, however the chance of injury occuring is greatly reduced. The problem the players have, is that proper tackling is not only more difficult (and they want the easy way out), but also the players feel it is not as "punishing" or "highlight reel worthy". This shows how little the players know about their own game. Proper tackling can result in just as big, and highlight reel worthy hits.

 

What it comes down to is simple: The NFL is saying "Tackle properly so you dont kill yourselves", and the players are answering with "WAH! We dont wanna!".

 

 

Yes, there has been an evolution in the game that has resulted in more head injuries, and yes the 'SportsCenter' effect certainly deserves some blame, but there's more to it than that.

 

--Players are simply bigger, faster and most powerful -- by a huge margin -- than in past generations. Therefore, the same game is going to produce more injuries.

 

--There were plenty of serious injuries in the past too but we didn't have 24x7 media to tell us about every detail. If it didn't happen in your city, you probably never heard about it.

 

--Research shows that it's not just the one huge hit that causes the problems; it is also the repetitive nature of less severe impacts, just like in boxing.

 

--The equipment continues to get bigger and sturdier, giving players the sense that they are protected even in violent collisions (especially leading with the helmet). Want to really reduce head-to-head hits? Ban helmets and shoulder pads. Obviously that will never happen because team logs on the helmets are among the most recognized marketing symbols in the country.

 

 

The League needs to get real serious about this and start suspending players, and also fining coaches/owners. No one is saying not to hit anymore. They're simply saying to hit correctly. As someone who played football for 12 years, and Rugby for 6, its not that difficult to do.

That's fine and it's certainly worth pursuing, especially for dirty thugs like James Harrison, but it's simply not realistic to think you can have the game played at the same speed and intensity with the same basic rules without continuing to see serious long-term effects to the players.

[Peace]

 

That "technique" is NOT proper tackling. Players can still be injured while trying to tackle properly, however the chance of injury occuring is greatly reduced. The problem the players have, is that proper tackling is not only more difficult (and they want the easy way out), but also the players feel it is not as "punishing" or "highlight reel worthy". This shows how little the players know about their own game. Proper tackling can result in just as big, and highlight reel worthy hits.

...

 

The League needs to get real serious about this and start suspending players, and also fining coaches/owners. No one is saying not to hit anymore. They're simply saying to hit correctly. As someone who played football for 12 years, and Rugby for 6, its not that difficult to do.

 

 

It's not just technique that causes brain damage. Repetitive head hits of any kind cause brain damage. The evidence is mounting that head hits and even knocks are terrible for your brain. How any parent lets their kid play football these days is beyond me.

 

At this point, football parents and coaches are like 70s tobacco companies: "Football doesn't cause brain injuries" is like "There is no proof showing tobacco use causes cancer." Okie dokie.

 

What adult players do to their brains is their own business. But if people actually get serious about caring about brain damage from repetitive head blows, it's the end of football.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Peace

[LewPort71]

Proper tackling can result in just as big, and highlight reel worthy hits. << from Dr. Dareustein's earlier post

 

 

Just ask Mike Stratton about this.

 

...and sorry about your ribs Keith Lincoln

Edited July 5, 2011 by LewPort71

[John from Riverside]

The problem is the speed of the game just keeps getting faster and faster.......

 

These hits are going to happen....what they need to do is start evaluting players after these hits a little better MANDITORY.....

 

For instance....hiring a medical person to review each game...and where a vicious head to head hit was involved....do a evaluation just to be on the safe side....not hide injuries to keep players on the field.

[Mr. WEO]

The problem is the speed of the game just keeps getting faster and faster.......

 

These hits are going to happen....what they need to do is start evaluting players after these hits a little better MANDITORY.....

 

For instance....hiring a medical person to review each game...and where a vicious head to head hit was involved....do a evaluation just to be on the safe side....not hide injuries to keep players on the field.

Unless a player was knocked unconscious, these exams won't be very focal or revealing. Serious head blows are already being evaluated by the medical staff. There is little to go on as far a science to determine when a player is safe to return to play, if ever.

 

It would be more compelling of a story if these guys were uniformly for better protection, but all we hear from are the guys who are against any weakening of the tackling rules.

[billsfan89]

Higher helmet standards should be in place. Every player should be using 5 star rated helmets. I can pull up a article that stated that a majority of NFL players were using 1 star rated helmets (Helmets that protect from your skull cracking open but not very protective against concussions).

 

Its not a panacea if players were using 5 star rated helmets but its likely something that would cut down on concussions somewhat. Also throw in that once a trainer (Who is independent of the team) diagnoses a player with a concussion they have to sit out the rest of that game and the next weeks game.

 

Its two very simple steps the NFL could take to make sure that players are safer.

[John from Riverside]

Unless a player was knocked unconscious, these exams won't be very focal or revealing. Serious head blows are already being evaluated by the medical staff. There is little to go on as far a science to determine when a player is safe to return to play, if ever.

 

It would be more compelling of a story if these guys were uniformly for better protection, but all we hear from are the guys who are against any weakening of the tackling rules.

 

 

Im kinda spitballing with that idea......if players are getting concussions in the games...then there are symtoms afterwords.....I remember that my son when head to head on a tackle leveling a wide reciever his jr year of high school.......not a intentionally dirty hit it just "happened"

 

He had a headache for 3 days after that and I was not diligent enough to recognize it as a concussion......he played on.....and no problems but now I know symptoms do exist...headaches....sore neck.....dizzy spells. etc etc.

 

Yes....helmets should be made better.

[DrDawkinstein]

The problem is the speed of the game just keeps getting faster and faster.......

 

These hits are going to happen....what they need to do is start evaluting players after these hits a little better MANDITORY.....

 

For instance....hiring a medical person to review each game...and where a vicious head to head hit was involved....do a evaluation just to be on the safe side....not hide injuries to keep players on the field.

 

Nothing will change unless the medical staff doing the evaluating are THIRD PARTY HIRES by the NFL or better yet, an outside organization.

 

If a TEAM trainer is evaluating a star QB, you dont think he is under major pressure from both the coaches/front office AND the player, to get him back on the field ASAP?

 

The doctors need to be earning a paycheck from someone other than the team in order for this to work.

[Mr. WEO]

Im kinda spitballing with that idea......if players are getting concussions in the games...then there are symtoms afterwords.....I remember that my son when head to head on a tackle leveling a wide reciever his jr year of high school.......not a intentionally dirty hit it just "happened"

 

He had a headache for 3 days after that and I was not diligent enough to recognize it as a concussion......he played on.....and no problems but now I know symptoms do exist...headaches....sore neck.....dizzy spells. etc etc.

 

Yes....helmets should be made better.

I agree, those are symptoms that would be hard to ignore. But a neurological exam of such a player would likely be unremarkable/normal. And what if such a player doesn't report any such symptoms?

 

Anyway, a doc would be just guessing at how long to keep such a player out. At least as long as the symptoms persisted. But is that long enough.

 

Also, make them wear the safest helmet on the market or they don't get paid.

 

 

Nothing will change unless the medical staff doing the evaluating are THIRD PARTY HIRES by the NFL or better yet, an outside organization.

 

If a TEAM trainer is evaluating a star QB, you dont think he is under major pressure from both the coaches/front office AND the player, to get him back on the field ASAP?

The doctors need to be earning a paycheck from someone other than the team in order for this to work.

No, I don't. Most of these docs are team or game day physicians because they enjoy it and the prestige it brings. The money is likely a fraction of their total income (especially for a neuro/spine specialist or even an orthopedist). They have nothing to gain but a tarnished reputation and a lawsuit if they rush a guy back and their is a poor outcome. A "third party" doc is going to be paid by the team also, or the company he works for is. If this is what he does for income, he is more likely to make a bad call on an injured player.

[Peace]

You are all obsessing on the one big hit. That misses the problem that the accumulation of small hits kills the brain. Football is terrible for later life brain function because the smaller hits kill you too. That's why kids should not be playing. Imagine hitting your kids head open handed 50 times a day in the fall. That's an offensive lineman age 12 getting 50 brain rattles...no matter what helmet, those hits rattle your brain.. That would be child abuse off the field, but parents are still sending their kids out to play, yet the evidence that accumulated hits leads to early onset Alzheimer's like brain decay is massively convincing.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Peace

[RkFast]

It is NOT the NFL's goal to change the game to the point that people arent hitting at all.

 

Everyone knows that in a contact sport, there are going to be some injuries. They are simply unavoidable.

 

The point the NFL is trying to make is that, over the last 20 years, a certain "technique" has been adopted by players which DIRECTLY leads to severe head and spinal injuries.

 

That "technique" is NOT proper tackling. Players can still be injured while trying to tackle properly, however the chance of injury occuring is greatly reduced. The problem the players have, is that proper tackling is not only more difficult (and they want the easy way out), but also the players feel it is not as "punishing" or "highlight reel worthy". This shows how little the players know about their own game. Proper tackling can result in just as big, and highlight reel worthy hits.

 

What it comes down to is simple: The NFL is saying "Tackle properly so you dont kill yourselves", and the players are answering with "WAH! We dont wanna!".

 

The League needs to get real serious about this and start suspending players, and also fining coaches/owners. No one is saying not to hit anymore. They're simply saying to hit correctly. As someone who played football for 12 years, and Rugby for 6, its not that difficult to do.

 

 

THIS

[Mr. WEO]

You are all obsessing on the one big hit. That misses the problem that the accumulation of small hits kills the brain. Football is terrible for later life brain function because the smaller hits kill you too. That's why kids should not be playing. Imagine hitting your kids head open handed 50 times a day in the fall. That's an offensive lineman age 12 getting 50 brain rattles...no matter what helmet, those hits rattle your brain.. That would be child abuse off the field, but parents are still sending their kids out to play, yet the evidence that accumulated hits leads to early onset Alzheimer's like brain decay is massively convincing.

 

Not yet, it's not.

[Peace]

Not yet, it's not.

 

If you're a parent and ignore this,

 

Repeated blows to the head, which are routine in football, can have lifelong repercussions. A study commissioned by the NFL found that ex–pro players over age 50 were five times as likely as the national population to receive a memory-related-disease diagnosis. Players 30 to 49 were 19 times as likely to be debilitated. Of the dozen brains of CTE victims McKee has examined, 10 were from either linemen or linebackers; some scientists now fear that the thousands of lower-impact, or "subconcussive," blows these players receive, even if they don't result in documented concussions, can be just as damaging as — if not more so than — the dramatic head injuries that tend to receive more attention and intensive treatment.

 

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1957459,00.html#ixzz1RLVndeMN

 

you are a bad parent. That's not 50% more likely to lead to CTE...that's not 100% more likely...that's 5000% more likely. Now sure, that's the pros, but if you put this together with the studies Gladwell's article cites (you can Google that article) that shows that in every case (19 for 19 or something like that) of non-pro footballers that some doctor autopsied, they found abnormal tau problems, that's compelling stuff. And certainly convincing for any sane parent.

 

If you play football or box, your brain will be screwed. Even if you don't play pro or college.

 

Again, ask yourself: Would you as a father hit your kid in the head 50+ times a day 5 days a week for 3-4 months a year? That's what you're doing by letting a kid play football, and that will have physical repercussions that no helmet can cure. Your brain is meant to rattle only a little in the skull. Football rattles it a lot, over and over.

 

To say that it's not convincing is to ignore both these early studies and the so-obvious anecdotal evidence. If you're waiting for a study of 10000 football kids and these sub-concussive blows, it will take too long. And of course, the evidence on concussions is massive and convincing--and kids of course get the worst treatment properly diagnosing concussions of any age group so they are more likely to have an undiagnosed concussion than a pro.

 

Just don't let your kid play football or box. There are a million other sports out there.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Peace

[Mr. WEO]

If you're a parent and ignore this,

 

 

 

you are a bad parent. That's not 50% more likely to lead to CTE...that's not 100% more likely...that's 5000% more likely. Now sure, that's the pros, but if you put this together with the studies Gladwell's article cites (you can Google that article) that shows that in every case (19 for 19 or something like that) of non-pro footballers that some doctor autopsied, they found abnormal tau problems, that's compelling stuff. And certainly convincing for any sane parent.

 

If you play football or box, your brain will be screwed. Even if you don't play pro or college.

 

Again, ask yourself: Would you as a father hit your kid in the head 50+ times a day 5 days a week for 3-4 months a year? That's what you're doing by letting a kid play football, and that will have physical repercussions that no helmet can cure. Your brain is meant to rattle only a little in the skull. Football rattles it a lot, over and over.

 

To say that it's not convincing is to ignore both these early studies and the so-obvious anecdotal evidence. If you're waiting for a study of 10000 football kids and these sub-concussive blows, it will take too long. And of course, the evidence on concussions is massive and convincing--and kids of course get the worst treatment properly diagnosing concussions of any age group so they are more likely to have an undiagnosed concussion than a pro.

 

Just don't let your kid play football or box. There are a million other sports out there.

No one, certainly not me, is denying a connection between massive and/or repeated blows to the head will result in long term brain damage. But if we relied on anectdotal evidence, it would seem that few players, of all that have played the game, suffer from dementia. What if every single player ultimately was autopsied and every single brain revealed tau proteins? Do they all have CTE__even those who never exhibit symptoms of brain disease?

 

Did you read about the Michigan study that revealed an increase incidence of alzheimers and dementia in former NFL players aged 30 to 49? How did they make this finding? Telephone interviews! There was no attempt to find out if any of the respondents were ever tested or diagnosed with any of these diseases--they simply asked them over the phone.

 

There are safer helmets than the ones currently worn by players--they simply don't want to wear the safer helmets. Therefore, at that level, this becomes a dubious issue--much like motorcycle riders who don't wear helmets. There is little more the league can do to protect players who aren't interested in increased protection.

[Peace]

 

There are safer helmets than the ones currently worn by players--they simply don't want to wear the safer helmets. Therefore, at that level, this becomes a dubious issue--much like motorcycle riders who don't wear helmets. There is little more the league can do to protect players who aren't interested in increased protection.

 

I deleted the first part of your response just to make this succinct. I'm not relying solely on anecdotal evidence. I just tacked that on, as you saw.

 

As to this last point, I don't care about what adults do to scramble their brains--my point is solely about kids.

 

IF adults want to box, play football, or fight lions in the colleseum, so be it. But kids should not be allowed to play football. And what's worse is that kids not only play, but they have worse equipment and less medical care available at games. It's a firestorm of idiocy. (And that ignores the possible coaches telling kids to shake off wooziness and parents who tell their kid to play through the headaches because "I did it when I was a kid.")

[vincec]

This problem will be solved when players stop using their head as a weapon. The old technique of leading with your face mask or the crown of your helmet when tackling or blocking has to go. Football equipment is there to protect the players not enable them to do things that they wouldn't do otherwise. Consider this from an article I read:

 

"Football can learn some valuable lessons from rugby. In that sport, hits to the head, and even those using the shoulder, are illegal. You essentially must tackle with your arms, and players are drilled on a technique in which the defender moves his head to the side of an opponent's body to avoid head-on collisions. It's not such a stretch to think an NFL player could adjust to these kinds of rules and become a defensive stalwart by bear-hugging players to the ground rather than launching himself like a heat-seeking missile. It wouldn't make for such jarring highlights on SportsCenter each Sunday night, but it could save lives."

 

Now rugby still has its share of concussions, but I'll bet if players don't lead with the head or shoulder AND are wearing helmets concussions would essentially disappear.

Edited July 8, 2011 by vincec