buffalobillsfootball Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I think I found the perfect place... but it would require a few more bridges to be put in linky FAR from perfect.
pimp on da' net Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 A waterfront (single use) stadium makes almost no sense. For comparison, would you, or anyone with limited resources build a $300,000 house to live in for only one day a month? Even if you had a covered stadium, do you think given a choice, convention goers would choose Buffalo over some sunny/sandy locale in mid February? The waterfron offers nothing. Wake up. Crytal Beach is a nice memory for nostalgic WNYers, but those days are over. Times change. People aren't going to go shopping on the waterfront. We have much more convenient suburban malls. Bass Pro Shop - niche market. Hardly the anchor to a waterfront sub-economy. Unless there were an enormous master plan with multiple developers, any proposal of a waterfront stadium is a foolish. And in the current economy, there's not exactly a big line of investors waiting to part with their money. Buffalo is already too stigmatized to be a major tourist destination. It's also too seasonal to be economically feasible. What fantastic attractions could be put on the waterfront that could survive with mostly summer activity? I've been hearing this BS for 30 years about the rest of NY State supporting NYC. It's crap. It's some myth started by envious upstaters years ago. NYC is dynamic, bustling, energetic machine and provides a huge portion of NY State tax revenue. If the rest of the state were to annex the Big Apple, do you think they could support themselves on their failing business plans and corrupt municipalities? I'm a native of the Queen City, love it, and consider it my hometown, but the politicians and constituency who elect them are largely a bunch of backward thinking idiots. The same breed of politicians keep getting put into office. Their solution to fiscal crunches is to raise taxes - exactly the opposite of what should be done to stimulate any economy. Something as simple as building a F-ing bridge to Canada or developing the waterfront are ideas that are argued over - not for months - but for decades. And nothing ever gets done! Meanwhile, the only people left in WNY are those who couldn't leave their aging parents, got jobs in the educational/University system, some other taxpayer funded position, or medical fields, or who just can't leave their favorite bar stool at the southside gin mill of choice. Suggesting NY City is somehow a drain on the rest of the state is like saying Disneyworld is taking resources and money that could be used for local hotels around Orlando. As far as lousy politicians go, keep in mind they're elected officials. Blame those who buy into their rhetoric and continue to re-elect them. Niagara Falls has millions of people and dollars pouring into it from outside the area every day. NY State should realize the potential revenue that can be gained from drawing some of the Canadian business back to the states. A multi-use stadium would be a good first step. +1,000,000 I've always chuckled when I heard that NYC is draining the resources from the rest of the state... Every local municipality in this region has done nothing but guard their own kingdom while the help has robbed the house. The winners are the old money men who've done a wonderful job of discouraging grown in this region with petty politics and small town mentality ...I really believe the mind set here would f*#k up a one car funeral
GaryPinC Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I think PTR's right on with his arguements. I love the Senator's ideas for putting it near Buffalo but a big part of the issue is bringing more Canadian money in and that seems best served by Niagara Falls. I also would love it if that area wasn't so damn commercialized but that's the history of the area and it's not going to change so might as well take advantage of it. Also you've got the fact that all the new gambling places are putting a hurt on Atlantic City: http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110531/ap_on_re_us/us_reshuffling_atlantic_city I've got to believe the Niagara Falls casinos have seen drop off in business especially when you factor in the economy and the newer ID restrictions. I'm sure the area would be amenable for a large draw of people on fall weekends and at other times during the year. Toronto companies might consider purchasing stadium suites, especially with all the other entertainment around there. To me Niagara Falls is the area's best attraction for drawing in people and therefore arguably the best place to put a new stadium. And let's be honest, Buffalo will never be a tourist destination so a stadium would help spur some development in the area but won't be a significant growth catalyst. When they built the Indians and Cavs new facilities here in Cleveland it certainly helped make the immediate area look better and resulted in some new bars and restaurants but these businesses struggle in the off season or when the teams suck and aren't drawing fans. Those facilities haven't changed Cleveland much. Buffalo needs to focus on new parks/greenspace, cleaning itself up and luring in new businesses. Make itself into an area where outsiders would come to raise a family, not try and lure in a bunch of tourists for a vacation.
The Senator Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Yes, I'm sure all Bills fans from the Southern Tier, northwestern PA, and all other points south, would be thrilled to see another 35 miles (actually 70 miles, round-trip) tacked on to their game-day sojourn for the opportunity to fight urban congestion in and out of a 70,000+ seat stadium somehow 'shoe-horned' into tiny little Niagara Falls, NY, just to exit their vehicles for a 3-hour game and then return home Folks seem to overlook that even many of our Canadian fans would be also inconvenienced by a move to the north, as a good portion of our Southern Ontario fans come from West of Buffalo - not North. (Just for reference, the Brewer's Retail/Beer Store on Garrison Road in Ft. Erie is 12 miles from RW Stadium, and 22 miles from The Rainbow Centre.) Then consider the roadway infrastructure needed to facilitate ingress/egress for 70,000+ fans on game day (figure at least 35,000 cars carrying players, personnel, vendors, fans, media, etc.) The city streets in Niagara Falls are not able to accommodate such traffic without MAJOR traffic headaches t, and there's really no way to change that fact. The old Bethlehem site, OTOH, is already sited on a major highway (Route 5), and pretty much right at the intersection of Route 5, the NYS Thruway, Milestrip Road, etc. (Not to mention that a stadium at the old Bethlehem site almost instantly remediates a major industrial eyesore, and probably provides the most viable re-use of that vast site in the shortest time.) A final point - if ever earnest discussion begins of where/how to site a major monstrosity like a 70K-seat stadium and folks in various NF neighborhoods catch wind of how they'll be affected as land is taken to build new roads and widen existing ones, build lots for parking, build the actual stadium and all the ancillary structures, objection will begin instantly - and the sudden crescendo of opposition will quickly grow to a deafening roar. OTOH, folks who have for decades lived directly on major highway Route 5 across from the Bethlehem eyesore are likely to welcome - with open arms - anything that would replace this...
justnzane Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 ok here are the facts as I can't bring myself to ever reply direct to some dork called pimp on da net. The population of NYC is approximately 42% of the state's population (if you believe that the census adequately counted everyone in the city that is) According to Former Comptroller Alan Hevesi http://www.osc.state.ny.us/localgov/datanstat/annreport/06annreport.pdf, NYC generates 52% of revenue and 52% of expenditures. It does help that four of the wealthiest zip codes are in Manhattan, this the most accumlated wealth is there. That does not say that either Upstate supports NYC or vice versa. DML is right that our local politicians have failed us immensely. However, there are ways to revitalize an area under good leadership. Unfortunately, that would mean some growing pains but would be best served by utilizing the best assets of the area such as the lakes and especially the Falls. That said, I do take offense to DML's statement about those of us who remain are stuck on our parents, work in education, public service, medical, or is a drunk. This is area is a great area to live, and the grass isn't greener in a lot of other places. I know many people of my generation who have left town and came back because other areas are struggling, have nothing to do, can't navigate through traffic, or have lost their homes due to natural disasters. The only real way that we can make this area and the country restore its luster is if we can get rid of all of these politicians that are holding up progress.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Yes, I'm sure all Bills fans from the Southern Tier, northwestern PA, and all other points south, would be thrilled to see another 35 miles (actually 70 miles, round-trip) tacked on to their game-day sojourn for the opportunity to fight urban congestion in and out of a 70,000+ seat stadium somehow 'shoe-horned' into tiny little Niagara Falls, NY, just to exit their vehicles for a 3-hour game and then return home Folks seem to overlook that even many of our Canadian fans would be also inconvenienced by a move to the north, as a good portion of our Southern Ontario fans come from West of Buffalo - not North. (Just for reference, the Brewer's Retail/Beer Store on Garrison Road in Ft. Erie is 12 miles from RW Stadium, and 22 miles from The Rainbow Centre.) Then consider the roadway infrastructure needed to facilitate ingress/egress for 70,000+ fans on game day (figure at least 35,000 cars carrying players, personnel, vendors, fans, media, etc.) The city streets in Niagara Falls are not able to accommodate such traffic without MAJOR traffic headaches t, and there's really no way to change that fact. The old Bethlehem site, OTOH, is already sited on a major highway (Route 5), and pretty much right at the intersection of Route 5, the NYS Thruway, Milestrip Road, etc. (Not to mention that a stadium at the old Bethlehem site almost instantly remediates a major industrial eyesore, and probably provides the most viable re-use of that vast site in the shortest time.) A final point - if ever earnest discussion begins of where/how to site a major monstrosity like a 70K-seat stadium and folks in various NF neighborhoods catch wind of how they'll be affected as land is taken to build new roads and widen existing ones, build lots for parking, build the actual stadium and all the ancillary structures, objection will begin instantly - and the sudden crescendo of opposition will quickly grow to a deafening roar. OTOH, folks who have for decades lived directly on major highway Route 5 across from the Bethlehem eyesore are likely to welcome - with open arms - anything that would replace this... The Falls is ever inch as much an eyesore as the old steel plant. I also don't get what makes Niagara Falls "tiny". Bethlehem Steel is no more accessible than the Falls. In fact I can argue it's less so. If you put a stadium at the steel plant site on Rt.5 you wind up with a situation just like they have in Foxboro, MA...only two ways out: north or south. Considering how much of the Falls is torn down it's hard to imagine anyone complaining about a $billion-plus investment in their city. And despite you're love of winters on the lake, I think being right on the lake in November and December would make going to that location unbearable. Imagine tailgating in a damp, 30mph freezing GALE off the lake. Sorry, Sen. Worst idea ever. As for eyesores, look at this. PTR Edited July 6, 2011 by PromoTheRobot
Helpmenow Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Good tax payers in Niagara County can pay for the upkeep
The Senator Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) The Falls is ever inch as much an eyesore as the old steel plant. I also don't get what makes Niagara Falls "tiny". Bethlehem Steel is no more accessible than the Falls. In fact I can argue it's less so. If you put a stadium at the steel plant site on Rt.5 you wind up with a situation just like they have in Foxboro, MA...only two ways out: north or south. Considering how much of the Falls is torn down it's hard to imagine anyone complaining about a $billion-plus investment in their city. And despite you're love of winters on the lake, I think being right on the lake in November and December would make going to that location unbearable. Imagine tailgating in a damp, 30mph freezing GALE off the lake. Sorry, Sen. Worst idea ever. As for eyesores, look at this. PTR Well, Promo, tailgating at RWS in general is not for the wimpiest - or faint-of-heart - no matter how you slice it Seriously, though, I'm always amused at how parochial some of these WNY squabbles become - particularly when we're talking about such a small geographic expanse. You do realize that the lake is less than 4 miles from the current stadium location, and that you can actually see it [the lake] from the upper deck, no? It would be a tough sell to convince anyone that situating a stadium at the vortex of lake-effect winds off both Lakes Erie AND Ontario would somehow be any more pleasant in late December. Traffic-wise, I suppose you could argue that it'd be easier to take the I-190 over the always wide-open and headache-free Grand Island bridges to the Robert Moses Parkway, then exit onto Buffalo Street and wind your way thru the narrow city streets of Niagara Falls into tightly-spaced urban parking lots and ramps - rather than build a massive parking expanse on vast available amounts of flat, vacant land immediately abutting the stadium gates, with it's own exit/entrance ramp off the straight, flat, wide - and easily further widened - major highway (Route 5) on which the former Bethlehem plant already sits. You could try to make that argument...I guess ... Edited July 6, 2011 by The Senator
pimp on da' net Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) ok here are the facts as I can't bring myself to ever reply direct to some dork called pimp on da net. HONESTLYYYYY !!!!! COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO GOES BY THE MONIKER JUSTNZANE WITH 5000+ POST GET OUT OF YOUR PARENTS BASEMENT SOMETIMES !!! My point is, which region has the most growth? Upstate or downstate...I love Buffalo but for some reason the prevailing thought from these parts seem rooted in the belief that NYS would be better off with upstate detached from our downstate counterparts. Its like a script from A Few Good Men,when Jack was questioned about how he secures our freedom...lol. If upstate ever separted from downstate, this region will become an even more after-thought. BTW you mentioned the population percentage and expenditures but excluded the tax revenue generated from that region and not just NYC...an oversight im sure, it wouldn't help sale your loopsided view.I will say I agree upon the politics of the region which has held this area down for far too long. Now please go back in your dungeon and post away. Edited July 6, 2011 by pimp on da' net
The Senator Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 ...Considering how much of the Falls is torn down it's hard to imagine anyone complaining about a $billion-plus investment in their city... Actually, PTR, it's not that hard to imagine...not hard at all... A company wanted to invest $4.5 Billion into our local economy and suddenly changed their mind. So, you might be asking yourself at this point, WHA HAPPEN?!?! Why did Verizon cancel this project? Was it the unfriendly business climate fostered by New York State that caused the change of heart? No, it was one lady and her lawyer... Verizon Withdraws Plans For Niagara County Datacenter
KollegeStudnet Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) I adore the people who comment on the Bethelem Steel location, but when it is all said and done...the location will go to Niagara Falls, NY... 20 years ago, the Bethelem Steel location would've worked, but the year is 2011 and the majority of the money and untapped fan base is not in North Western P.A....North Central P.A. or beyond Rochester... The regionalization of this team is focused on the 13 million tourists who visit Niagara Falls each year...and the people of Toronto....Hamilton...Burlington...St. Catherines...Niagara Falls, CA and the rest of Southern Ontario... Overall, 28 miles to Niagara Falls from Orchard Park is better than 3,000 miles to LA! Again, sorry to create havoc on the Bethelem location, but the stability of the future of this team is going to last--IF the team is marketed to the people of the North! Edited July 6, 2011 by KollegeStudnet
shane nelson Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 The Bills by the Niagara River. I have visions of many people taking the plung. Here is a future eyewitness sport broadcast http://www.toxicjunction.com/get.asp?i=V3770
KollegeStudnet Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 The Bills by the Niagara River. I have visions of many people taking the plung. Here is a future eyewitness sport broadcast http://www.toxicjunc...get.asp?i=V3770 survival of the fittest
SouthernMan Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 That said, I do take offense to DML's statement about those of us who remain are stuck on our parents, work in education, public service, medical, or is a drunk. This is area is a great area to live, and the grass isn't greener in a lot of other places. I know many people of my generation who have left town and came back because other areas are struggling, have nothing to do, can't navigate through traffic, or have lost their homes due to natural disasters. The only real way that we can make this area and the country restore its luster is if we can get rid of all of these politicians that are holding up progress. Did I mention that Buffalonians are naturaly paranoid and thin-skinned? I agree that Buffalo is a great place. Believe me - I am not knocking the parental caregivers and those who've managed to find gainful employment in WNY. God bless 'em all. That statement was made to express my exasperation that there isn't more opportunity for everyone else.
Shoto Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Cool picture, however I say no to a dome....I may be sick but I love winter games outside. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aFauB8KNc_k8rGiuOHLTig?feat=directlink Always liked Lucas Oil Stadium and was wondering what it would look like in downtown Niagara Falls. Slapped together using http://www.splashup.com/ a great photoshop alternative online.
justnzane Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Did I mention that Buffalonians are naturaly paranoid and thin-skinned? I agree that Buffalo is a great place. Believe me - I am not knocking the parental caregivers and those who've managed to find gainful employment in WNY. God bless 'em all. That statement was made to express my exasperation that there isn't more opportunity for everyone else. I was being exaggerative to being offended, but that said we are in agreement.
Zulu Cthulhu Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Did I mention that Buffalonians are naturaly paranoid and thin-skinned? I agree that Buffalo is a great place. Believe me - I am not knocking the parental caregivers and those who've managed to find gainful employment in WNY. God bless 'em all. That statement was made to express my exasperation that there isn't more opportunity for everyone else. Congrats on following up several insults to the people in the buffalo area with another backhanded insult. Sorry we are all thin skinned drunks up here who can't get a job anywhere else. You're just ignorant son, and probably were too dumb to get a well paying job here. Good riddance.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) This subject comes up each year. As a son of a former local politician I have to say that a HUGE obstacle to the Bills moving to Niagara Falls is the fact that it is in a different county. The Erie County power base wouldn't just hand an NFL team to Niagara County. Niagara County is horribly corrupt. The political scene there is at a much lower level of sophistication (I know, it's hard to believe), and power within the state. They haven't been up to the task of running that city as it is. Frankly, it's all mafioso and farmers. Edited July 7, 2011 by Matthews' Bag
justnzane Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 This subject comes up each year. As a son of a former local politician I have to say that a HUGE obstacle to the Bills moving to Niagara Falls is the fact that it is in a different county. The Erie County power base wouldn't just hand an NFL team to Niagara County. Niagara County is horribly corrupt. The political scene there is at a much lower level of sophistication (I know, it's hard to believe), and power within the state. They haven't been up to the task of running that city as it is. Frankly, it's all mafioso and farmers. After Giambra and Antoine Thompson, I don't know how that is possible. The town I live in is full of nepotism and cronyism, where my uncle had his 73 Chevelle sitting in the driveway for 10 years until the town said it had to be moved citing some variant of eminent domain. We can't have open flame fire pits, our garbage men routinely skip streets, and they allow shady deals of paper street properties to be sold and developed without asking consulting the people in that neighborhood. So, me thinks there is a ton of corruption to go around, and Niagara Co. is just a different brand of stojan to smell.
Geno Smith's Arm Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 After Giambra and Antoine Thompson, I don't know how that is possible. The town I live in is full of nepotism and cronyism, where my uncle had his 73 Chevelle sitting in the driveway for 10 years until the town said it had to be moved citing some variant of eminent domain. We can't have open flame fire pits, our garbage men routinely skip streets, and they allow shady deals of paper street properties to be sold and developed without asking consulting the people in that neighborhood. So, me thinks there is a ton of corruption to go around, and Niagara Co. is just a different brand of stojan to smell. Yer right! That's kinda what I mean. There are WAY more people in Erie County, and the power structure runs DEEP. They won't hand off the Bills to Niagara County.
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