To those who are anti-Toronto

[RyanC883]

does this impress you ?

 

The Buffalo Bills say their annual excursions to Toronto are helping to grow their fan base in Southern Ontario.

 

Bills Chief Executive Officer Russ Brandon told a crowd of fans Monday that the team continues to see concrete positive results from the five-year, eight-game deal it signed with Rogers Communications in 2008.

 

"After three years of that experience, we've had a 44 percent increase in season-ticket holders from Southern Ontario to One Bills Drive," Brandon said. "That's been the key, how the fans come from there, back to Ralph Wilson Stadium, come to our community and keep our organization viable and strong. That is the key to that relationship."

 

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/128503-toronto-deal-paying-off-for-bills/page__p__2133922__fromsearch__1#entry2133922

 

I believe him. I've seen a LOT more Canadians at games recently, and if you drive near the bridges to Canada after the game there is a huge line of traffic that takes a long time to get through. But, I would also like to see the Bills regionalize by playing a game perhaps in Rochester or the Carrier Dome. They also need to do a better job of tapping the CNY market.

 

I'd rather see a new stadium be built on the north side of the city that make access easier for both Canadians and Rochester (and east) travelers. The current location needlessly add 45+mins drive for both those regions. Somewhere closer to the I-90 Tollbooths would be optimal....

 

If we want a regional strategy then we need a regional location for the stadium, not moving home games to alternate sites. There is no business sense in the Toronto move unless it was say a Thanksgiving day game or something special like that. NFL networks game are NOT special and are in fact the WORST possible venue IMHO.

 

 

Not a bad idea. (I don't like it driving from Pa), but it makes the most sense.

[Metal Man]

I believe him. I've seen a LOT more Canadians at games recently, and if you drive near the bridges to Canada after the game there is a huge line of traffic that takes a long time to get through. But, I would also like to see the Bills regionalize by playing a game perhaps in Rochester or the Carrier Dome. They also need to do a better job of tapping the CNY market.

 

I would be willing to bet the Carrier Dome crowd would be a lot more vocal and pro-bills than the Toronto crowd has seemed so far.

[Delete This Account]

Isn't that the point? The original post (which wasn't very original or timely) represents one 'pole'.

 

I think everyone responding has considered the "[other] point of view" on this topic and has picked a side. That's how it works.

well, then, why don't we pin one thread. slug it "Toronto: the Bills are either doomed or not," and have a "Last Post Wins," type thread in which everyone can endlessly repeat all of their views over and over and over and over again, no?

you, respectfully, aren't going to change your stand.

others haven't either.

 

it would save time having to go through this every 2 months or so.

 

jw

[RyanC883]

I would be willing to bet the Carrier Dome crowd would be a lot more vocal and pro-bills than the Toronto crowd has seemed so far.

 

No doubt about it. I think it's a great idea if they are trying to regionalize.

[JohnC]

once again, this topic brings out a polarized response, with too many unsteady assumptions to address.

these threads never work. they always bring out the same answers, no matter how well thought out the original post is. too many people have their minds made up on this and are unwilling to consider another point of view. hell, i don't even know why i'm posting here.

 

jw

 

Having a 93 yr old owner who steadfastly fails to reveal his plans for his franchise after his passing certainly is the cause of this intense speculation. The problem isn't the resulting "unsteady assumptions". The problem is an owner who is not only very stubborn but arrogantly dismissive of the people who have enriched him to an undreamed of level.

 

too many people have their minds made up on this and are unwilling to consider another point of view. hell, i don't even know why i'm posting here.

 

You are absolutely correct about your above comment applying to me. I have watched how he has miserably run his third rate franchise for half a century. My opinion of him will never change, no matter how the franchise scenario plays out. The evidence is overwhelming. The verdict is obvious, at least to me it is.

[BillnutinHouston]

This goes much deeper than selling seats, winning games and building new stadiums.

 

I would submit that, due mainly to regional demographics (per capita income and not merely population), the Bills have to sell their product to the WNY market at a discount. According to published reports, Bills tickets are the least expensive in the NFL, and it's reasonable to assume that their rates for corporate suites, advertising, etc. are all similarly discounted relative to their competitors. Even if EVERY seat and suite were sold, the RATE that they are locked into is still low. This understanding of the WNY market is exactly why (IMO) Wilson has not in recent years asked WNY to build a new stadium - a new venue combined with the old demographics represents a financial step backward, not forward (Wilson would be financing at least some stadium debt without significantly increasing his revenue generation). He understands the futility of trying to charge more than the market will bear.

 

You don't walk into a "Dollar Store" and expect to see the kind of merchandise that would be sold at Nordstrom's. If the Bills are trying to tap into some wealthier clientele, I would think that most thoughtful fans would recognize that as a factor that will improve our competitiveness on the field, rather than cursing Canada and longing for the good old days.

 

It's true that most teams don't sell their home games, but most teams don't operate in a discounted market, either.

[JohnC]

You don't walk into a "Dollar Store" and expect to see the kind of merchandise that would be sold at Nordstrom's. If the Bills are trying to tap into some wealthier clientele, I would think that most thoughtful fans would recognize that as a factor that will improve our competitiveness on the field, rather than cursing Canada and longing for the good old days.

 

It's true that most teams don't sell their home games, but most teams don't operate in a discounted market, either.

 

The Bills are a third rate organization not because of a lack of revenue but because of an incompetent owner who has staffed his franchise with mediocre people. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, KC and Baltimore etc are not big revenue markets. They are for the most part well run organizations.

 

The Bills organization hired Dick Jauron and gave him a lot of personnel authority. That was a bad decision. The clueless owner brougght back the congenial Marv Levy to get this struggling franchise back on the right track. That odd decision set this franchise back for years. The owner kept Modrak in place as the head college scout for a decade. During that same period our overall draft performance was not only bad, but also very weird. It was solely the owner who installed his marketing guru, Russ Brandon, to take over the football operations. How much sense did that make? A change in staffing was made after only one year. I can go on an on about the mistakes this owner and organization have made. The failures of the organization stem not from a lack of revenue or the demographics of the region but from the utter incompetence of the owner and the staff he was involved in selecting.

[Armchair GM]

once again, this topic brings out a polarized response, with too many unsteady assumptions to address.

these threads never work. they always bring out the same answers, no matter how well thought out the original post is. too many people have their minds made up on this and are unwilling to consider another point of view. hell, i don't even know why i'm posting here.

 

jw

 

Well John, this is a fan board...and no one claims to be experts. It's all speculation and opinion...no matter what conclusions are reached, it doesn't really matter in the big picture. You have to take the posts for what they're worth and realize that the responses are mainly that of a venting of the frustrations shared by many. Sorry that the substance isn't up to your standards.

[Armchair GM]

This goes much deeper than selling seats, winning games and building new stadiums.

 

I would submit that, due mainly to regional demographics (per capita income and not merely population), the Bills have to sell their product to the WNY market at a discount. According to published reports, Bills tickets are the least expensive in the NFL, and it's reasonable to assume that their rates for corporate suites, advertising, etc. are all similarly discounted relative to their competitors. Even if EVERY seat and suite were sold, the RATE that they are locked into is still low. This understanding of the WNY market is exactly why (IMO) Wilson has not in recent years asked WNY to build a new stadium - a new venue combined with the old demographics represents a financial step backward, not forward (Wilson would be financing at least some stadium debt without significantly increasing his revenue generation). He understands the futility of trying to charge more than the market will bear.

 

You don't walk into a "Dollar Store" and expect to see the kind of merchandise that would be sold at Nordstrom's. If the Bills are trying to tap into some wealthier clientele, I would think that most thoughtful fans would recognize that as a factor that will improve our competitiveness on the field, rather than cursing Canada and longing for the good old days.

 

It's true that most teams don't sell their home games, but most teams don't operate in a discounted market, either.

 

Most people don't mind paying a higher rate for a better quality product, regardless of the economic environment. Spend the money available under the salary cap restrictions on higher end talent, both coaching and players, so as to provide a better quality product and a rate hike would be warranted and accepted. It's been easy to sacrific a Bills game or two every year to save some coin, but if you put a winning, competitive team on the field, people will make thier scrifices elsewhere.

[Delete This Account]

Well John, this is a fan board...and no one claims to be experts. It's all speculation and opinion...no matter what conclusions are reached, it doesn't really matter in the big picture. You have to take the posts for what they're worth and realize that the responses are mainly that of a venting of the frustrations shared by many. Sorry that the substance isn't up to your standards.

here's the perfect beauty of threads such as these bills-are-moving-maybe-to-toronto-possibly-la-or-taiwan-ralph-is-cheap-ralph-isn't-cheap-can-toronto-support-the-bills threads, and why they frustrate me so.

 

my point is, and i'll type slowly so everyone can keep up:

 

-- every two months and sometimes every two days, a thread such as this pops up.

-- every two months and sometimes every two days, when a thread such as this pops up, many of the same people express the exact same thoughts (as if cutting and pasting each thought from the previous eleventeen dozen threads similar to this that have gathered on this board).

-- there's rarely anything different. the same people complain that Mr. Wilson is cheap. others chime in that there's a business model. i come in with a post wondering why this thread is necessary because it's essentially repeating the exact same thing that yesterday's thread, and the day before that, and the day before that and the day before that had brought up.

-- and yet, the same dag-gurn thread with a different name pops up every two months and sometimes every two days.

 

i have long ago learned not to argue opinions in threads such as these. no one ever, ever, ever changes their minds. Mr.Weo is agin it. so's JohnC. fine. i can wholeheartedly accept that.

 

here's all -- and by all, i mean solely, and by solely, i mean the very, only singular thing i'm suggesting.

 

in order to save time, why not pin one thread and allow everyone to have at it? maybe even ban these cockroaches of a threads to continue pro-creating. there's 80 of them in the last five days (and i'm exagerating, i think, by thismuch). do we need another Toronto thread? really? is 1,872 not enough? do we need 1,873-4-5-6-7 ad infinitum.

 

oh, here's an idea. how about everyone that wants to start a new Toronto thread, simply take a breath, drive to Toronto, come back and upon your return, when you think this board still merits the 1,878th toronto thread, then take a breath and make the drive again.

 

i guess i'm venting in my own way, here, no?

 

jw

Edited July 1, 2011 by john wawrow

[Tcali]

Buffalo already IS a regional team. They're the "Buffalo" Bills in name only. Patrons to RWS come from all over western and central NY and southern Ontario. I meet and speak with a different handful of Canadians every game I go to, and I've been to every game for the past 5 seasons.

 

The dip in season ticket sales isn't due to a failure to regionalize the team into Ontario. The dip is due to: 1) the overall economic downswing, and 2) more and more ticket-buying fans getting fed up with the ongoing piss poor team getting thrown out there year after year.

 

If the Bills want to get season ticket sales back up into the 55-60,000 range, they need only do 1 thing - stop sucking and make the playoffs. You'll see people from Buffalo, Roc, NF, St Catharines and everywhere in between buy tickets.

 

You nailed it zulu. Its a miracle so many tickets are sold given this disgrace of a franchise.It already is regionalized.

Ralph just fleeced Toronto for tens of millions. The regionalizing thing is just a front.Bills country goes from east of Hamilton to

Syracuse(half of).Thats 3 + million--enough to justify a franchise.

[purple haze]

The strategy is sound.

 

However I'd like to see verifiable numbers that show giving Toronto those games actually brought in a lot of Canadian Bills fans that had never come to games here before, or a dramatic spike in Bills gear sold in the Toronto area.

 

If those numbers aren't impressive then the competitive advantage they sold away wasn't worth it.

 

 

You're right. The strategy is sound. And having some games up there is also sound. The spike you want to see might not show in the next few years. It will show seven, eight, ten years from now when the Bills have ingrained themselves in that area through the games, charitable outreach and other events that make TO feel like Buffalo is their NFL team too. You don't build up love overnight. You start out with some dates. Some phone calls. Some flowers. Then you bring chicken soup when she's sick. Go to her uncle's funeral. See her through some adversity and then love takes hold. But all that stuff never happens without the first dates.

 

The Bills in TO series is the first dates. Give it time. But the money the Bills got and will get when the deal is extended is huge. Bills can grab that TO market over time. Especially when they become winners again.

 

Patience.

 

You nailed it zulu. Its a miracle so many tickets are sold given this disgrace of a franchise.It already is regionalized.

Ralph just fleeced Toronto for tens of millions. The regionalizing thing is just a front.Bills country goes from east of Hamilton to

Syracuse(half of).Thats 3 + million--enough to justify a franchise.

 

 

Hamilton through 'Cuse are not the ones who will foot the bill for all of those Luxury suites at the average rage paid around the NFL.

TO has BIG money to do just that.

 

well, then, why don't we pin one thread. slug it "Toronto: the Bills are either doomed or not," and have a "Last Post Wins," type thread in which everyone can endlessly repeat all of their views over and over and over and over again, no?

you, respectfully, aren't going to change your stand.

others haven't either.

 

it would save time having to go through this every 2 months or so.

 

jw

 

I agree with you. But then again, this is what I was talking about last week, when I mentioned the speculation about the Bills moving. This is why I can't stand the topic being written about ad-infinitum by journalists and bloggers. These type of threads are the result. And they are started over speculation. From Sullivan to Florio, to unkown bloggers picking up another writers' speculation. It's a domino effect of nothing. One writer offers his speculation. A blogger with a large audience picks up on it and gives his two cents. Unkown bloggers with smaller audiences offer their take. And on the message board, upset fans, start the amount of threads many of us hate. But these threads don't generally start for no reason. They start based on a "report."

 

NOBODY knows what Mr. Wilson's will says. Not the reporters or bloggers or radio announcers. But if SOME writers write articles to get a reaction (Sullivan and Florio) why are you surprised when a reaction breaks out??

 

Between the Bills' tradition, NY State Government and local interests I think the Bills leaving town would be much more difficult than the league or the L.A. group wants to believe. I don't think Cleveland's level of ugliness when the Browns left would touch what Buffalo fans would bring.

Edited July 1, 2011 by purple haze

[Armchair GM]

here's the perfect beauty of threads such as these bills-are-moving-maybe-to-toronto-possibly-la-or-taiwan-ralph-is-cheap-ralph-isn't-cheap-can-toronto-support-the-bills threads, and why they frustrate me so.

 

my point is, and i'll type slowly so everyone can keep up:

 

-- every two months and sometimes every two days, a thread such as this pops up.

-- every two months and sometimes every two days, when a thread such as this pops up, many of the same people express the exact same thoughts (as if cutting and pasting each thought from the previous eleventeen dozen threads similar to this that have gathered on this board).

-- there's rarely anything different. the same people complain that Mr. Wilson is cheap. others chime in that there's a business model. i come in with a post wondering why this thread is necessary because it's essentially repeating the exact same thing that yesterday's thread, and the day before that, and the day before that and the day before that had brought up.

-- and yet, the same dag-gurn thread with a different name pops up every two months and sometimes every two days.

 

i have long ago learned not to argue opinions in threads such as these. no one ever, ever, ever changes their minds. Mr.Weo is agin it. so's JohnC. fine. i can wholeheartedly accept that.

 

here's all -- and by all, i mean solely, and by solely, i mean the very, only singular thing i'm suggesting.

 

in order to save time, why not pin one thread and allow everyone to have at it? maybe even ban these cockroaches of a threads to continue pro-creating. there's 80 of them in the last five days (and i'm exagerating, i think, by thismuch). do we need another Toronto thread? really? is 1,872 not enough? do we need 1,873-4-5-6-7 ad infinitum.

 

oh, here's an idea. how about everyone that wants to start a new Toronto thread, simply take a breath, drive to Toronto, come back and upon your return, when you think this board still merits the 1,878th toronto thread, then take a breath and make the drive again.

 

i guess i'm venting in my own way, here, no?

 

jw

 

John....take a breath, or even a drive to Toronto. As I said before, this isn't a forum of your peers it's a fan board. If it were, I would understand such frustration; however again, it's a fan board and you're denigrating the opinions of its patrons. I would venture to say that most of want to solicit opinion to our own threads without having to look up, and read through, countless other threads just to have our opinion lost in the abyss. For the most part, the mods catch on and close redundant threads. To a point your wrong…this is an original thread as the preceding 1,870 are anti TO and this is the converse.

 

A+ on creative writing skills John!

 

P.s. You're a pro, so you're not allowed to vent to us.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Armchair GM

[The Senator]

Our northern neighbors are far more fanatical about Will & Kate than football...

 

Link - Where are they at this very moment? Where are they going next???

 

Enjoy your Royals - the Bills will be in Buffalo long after Rogers Centre lies in crumbled ruins.

 

Happy Canada Day, eh?

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!

 

19 and 0 baby!!!!!

Edited July 1, 2011 by The Senator

[billsfreak]

here's the perfect beauty of threads such as these bills-are-moving-maybe-to-toronto-possibly-la-or-taiwan-ralph-is-cheap-ralph-isn't-cheap-can-toronto-support-the-bills threads, and why they frustrate me so.

 

my point is, and i'll type slowly so everyone can keep up:

 

-- every two months and sometimes every two days, a thread such as this pops up.

-- every two months and sometimes every two days, when a thread such as this pops up, many of the same people express the exact same thoughts (as if cutting and pasting each thought from the previous eleventeen dozen threads similar to this that have gathered on this board).

-- there's rarely anything different. the same people complain that Mr. Wilson is cheap. others chime in that there's a business model. i come in with a post wondering why this thread is necessary because it's essentially repeating the exact same thing that yesterday's thread, and the day before that, and the day before that and the day before that had brought up.

-- and yet, the same dag-gurn thread with a different name pops up every two months and sometimes every two days.

 

i have long ago learned not to argue opinions in threads such as these. no one ever, ever, ever changes their minds. Mr.Weo is agin it. so's JohnC. fine. i can wholeheartedly accept that.

 

here's all -- and by all, i mean solely, and by solely, i mean the very, only singular thing i'm suggesting.

 

in order to save time, why not pin one thread and allow everyone to have at it? maybe even ban these cockroaches of a threads to continue pro-creating. there's 80 of them in the last five days (and i'm exagerating, i think, by thismuch). do we need another Toronto thread? really? is 1,872 not enough? do we need 1,873-4-5-6-7 ad infinitum.

 

oh, here's an idea. how about everyone that wants to start a new Toronto thread, simply take a breath, drive to Toronto, come back and upon your return, when you think this board still merits the 1,878th toronto thread, then take a breath and make the drive again.

 

i guess i'm venting in my own way, here, no?

 

jw

If the posts on this board frustrate you so much, why do you even visit it? It could be at least part of the reason why when you go to the main menu all you see is the title of the thread, and if you want to read it you click on it and it opens up, if you don't want to read it don't click on it-simple isn't it? And who wants to save time, alot of people are on this board because they are bored and/or have too much time now. Has there ever really been a thread in the history of this board that has actually changed something within the Bills organization, their front office, coaching staff or roster? My guess is NO. This thread is a bunch of Bills fans, talking about a variety of subjects involving the Bills (at least the majority of them do), and each individuals opinions or thoughts on that subject. It isn't earth shattering or globally important stuff (seems like some of it is to us fans though) in the big scheme of things, so if you don't want to read it, and if it frustrated me as much as it apparently does you, I would stay the heck away from it, there are enough important things in life that frustrate one that can't be avoided. Take things on this board with a grain of salt, it is just conversation about a football team and the organization by a bunch of fans who have a wide variety of opinions and views, but who don't actually have any input to the way things are run within that organization.

[Delete This Account]

If the posts on this board frustrate you so much, why do you even visit it? It could be at least part of the reason why when you go to the main menu all you see is the title of the thread, and if you want to read it you click on it and it opens up, if you don't want to read it don't click on it-simple isn't it? And who wants to save time, alot of people are on this board because they are bored and/or have too much time now. Has there ever really been a thread in the history of this board that has actually changed something within the Bills organization, their front office, coaching staff or roster? My guess is NO. This thread is a bunch of Bills fans, talking about a variety of subjects involving the Bills (at least the majority of them do), and each individuals opinions or thoughts on that subject. It isn't earth shattering or globally important stuff (seems like some of it is to us fans though) in the big scheme of things, so if you don't want to read it, and if it frustrated me as much as it apparently does you, I would stay the heck away from it, there are enough important things in life that frustrate one that can't be avoided. Take things on this board with a grain of salt, it is just conversation about a football team and the organization by a bunch of fans who have a wide variety of opinions and views, but who don't actually have any input to the way things are run within that organization.

that's why i started my anti-toronto thread, thread where posters have a chance to amuse themselves as opposed to rehashing rehashed information and, as one poster put it, bashing each other on the heads despite no new developments.

come, then, join the fun:

 

jw

[Armchair GM]

that's why i started my anti-toronto thread, thread where posters have a chance to amuse themselves as opposed to rehashing rehashed information and, as one poster put it, bashing each other on the heads despite no new developments.

come, then, join the fun:

 

jw

 

How mad are you that your 1,872nd TO post got closed for, uhhh....redundancy? Looks like this thread lives on.

[billsfreak]

How mad are you that your 1,872nd TO post got closed for, uhhh....redundancy? Looks like this thread lives on.

Would that be the thread that got closed?

Edited July 1, 2011 by billsfreak

[KOKBILLS]

I'd rather see a new stadium be built on the north side of the city that make access easier for both Canadians and Rochester (and east) travelers. The current location needlessly add 45+mins drive for both those regions. Somewhere closer to the I-90 Tollbooths would be optimal....

 

+1

 

That would be a best-case scenario...It may still be a number of years away, but I've always thought a solution like the one you described will be the only way this Franchise stays in WNY for good...Otherwise who knows?

[Rockinon]

The Buffalo Bills would all ready have relocated without the support from places like Toronto or Rochester for that matter. Anyone who doesn't at the very least acknowledge that Buffalo cannot carry the load alone keeping asses in the seats of RW stadium is living a pipe dream. This anti-Canadian sentiment is childish, ignorant and shameful. If anything, we should be welcoming our Canadian neighbors for being there to help us support our team. That's all I am going to say on the subject.