K-9 Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Let's see. An owner, who thru no fault of his own, is senile and mentally incompetent to make important decisions. A career scout "promoted within" to be GM, Miami Dolphin coaching failures, a guy who is most known for emailing porn, and firing your head scout a couple of days after the draft. And this is the basis for your optimism? Priceless, absolutely priceless. I can think of another person RW "promoted from within" that had FAR less experience in the NFL and he turned into one of the greatest GMs in history. I get the impression though, that if you were around at the time you would have been one of the many that lambasted that move as well. GO BILLS!!!
NoSaint Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 My time with TBD has shown me that evidence is a thing of the past. Strongly worded baseless opinions are where its at. Use words like "clearly" or "obviously" as much as possible. Also come up with one main criticism of the franchise and repeat it ad nauseum whether its relevant to the discussion or not. If anyone disagrees with you, dismiss them as Ralph's apologist or "Mrs. Wilson" or tell them to "stop drinking the kool aid." If they cite evidence, write it off as excuses. Backing up opinions is a sign of weakness and should be avoided at all costs. Always remember that there is no middle ground. Use this guy to bring it all home It's really gotten rough lately. I feel like I can count the "respectfully opinionated, and well versed" on one hand these days.... I miss words like maybe, and possibly followed by something reasonable
RealityCheck Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 none that is the point. Ralph should have a minority owner like Modell did so the team can pass ownership smoothly without all this controversy. The only controversy that exists is the speculations of a few Bills fans. Hardly a meaningful situation in the grand scheme of things.
spartacus Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 I find this statement laughable, and somewhat typical. Ralph has made some horrible decisions over the past decade -- that is undeniable. He has also had his fair share of bad luck. If the Donahoe plan had worked (i.e., Mike Williams isn't a bust and Gregg Williams isn't an arrogant a-hole), Ralph had completely turned the football operations over to someone else and was willing to let him run it. Because of that failure, however, the "meddling" Ralph returned, bringing in an old crony ill-suited for a GM job (Marv) and giving the marketing guy (Russ) the ability to make football decisions. After those failures, however, Ralph clearly came to a realization he needed to beef up the "football" aspect of the organization and take a step back. I see NO evidence over the past year and a half of Ralph "meddling" in football decisions, and the staff of personnel people and coaches (Nix, Whaley, Gailey, Wannstedt, and the subtraction of Modrak) has been significantly upgraded. If you don't call that a structure or "legit" plan you're either ignorant or just trying to evoke a response. I also see very little evidence that the overaged "football guys" that Ralph is now relying on have any clue whatsoever about how to win in the NFL. taking a 7-9 team and turning it into a 4-12 doormat does not scream "legit " plan to any but the most avid Bills homer
thewildrabbit Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) I can think of another person RW "promoted from within" that had FAR less experience in the NFL and he turned into one of the greatest GMs in history. I get the impression though, that if you were around at the time you would have been one of the many that lambasted that move as well. GO BILLS!!! The entire reason Bill Polian was promoted was because of his shrewd negotiating tactics that involved signing Bruce Smith to his first contract while the current GM was recovering from a heart attack. Polian earned his promotion. It wasn't that he was retired at age 70 as a head scout and then hired out of retirement to a job he had never done before. Bill Polian was a one of a kind find, RW was sorta like the proverbial blind squirrel finding an acorn. Polian was Buddy Nix's exact opposite in the GM role. He was fiery and feisty, I can recall a story on him that he got down in a 3 point stance in his office and told the person he was talking to, to try and tackle him. Nix OTOH went to sleep when free agency opened, I remember him stating that is what he was going to do. The result was RT Cornell Green, about the most worthless free agent ever. Face it, Wilson was darn lucky to find Polian and smart enough to promote him and then galactic-ly stupid enough to fire him. Imagine the buffalo Bills in the playoffs the last ten years with a QB like Payton Manning and a super bowl trophy. That's what the old fool lost when he fired perhaps the most brilliant GM the NFL has seen the last 40 years. Now he is just an old fool, hiring other old fools hoping to get lucky again. Edited June 24, 2011 by Harvey lives
Doc Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 The entire reason Bill Polian was promoted was because of his shrewd negotiating tactics that involved signing Bruce Smith to his first contract while the current GM was recovering from a heart attack. Polian earned his promotion. It wasn't that he was retired at age 70 as a head scout and then hired out of retirement to a job he had never done before. Bill Polian was a one of a kind find, RW was sorta like the proverbial blind squirrel finding an acorn. Polian was Buddy Nix's exact opposite in the GM role. He was fiery and feisty, I can recall a story on him that he got down in a 3 point stance in his office and told the person he was talking to, to try and tackle him. Nix OTOH went to sleep when free agency opened, I remember him stating that is what he was going to do. The result was RT Cornell Green, about the most worthless free agent ever. Face it, Wilson was darn lucky to find Polian and smart enough to promote him and then galactic-ly stupid enough to fire him. Imagine the buffalo Bills in the playoffs the last ten years with a QB like Payton Manning and a super bowl trophy. That's what the old fool lost when he fired perhaps the most brilliant GM the NFL has seen the last 40 years. Now he is just an old fool, hiring other old fools hoping to get lucky again. Because if the Bills had kept Polian, they'd have ended-up with Manning. Luck plays a huge role in life. I don't know whether he lucked into Manning or whether the Colts intentionally tanked the 1997 season in order to get him. But one spot later and they don't get him. And remember that Polian didn't draft Kelly and did draft (journeyman quality QB) Kerry Collins 5th overall.
Rob T from OP Posted June 24, 2011 Author Posted June 24, 2011 I hope you are right also, but the Bills have an old stadium, the 4th lowest attendance in the NFL in 2010, and an owner who most assume doesn't have a whole lot of years left as owner, so the ownership of the team will be changing. From what I have heard about the new CBA the owners are working on, it only requires 24 of the owners to go along with it, and right not that doesn't seem a problem, so when Ralph and Mike Brown shoot it down again, again it won't matter. What might hurt the Bills is, supposedly there is a stipulation in the new CBA that the minimum cap, which they have raised to try to encourage the players to agree, is going to be 90-93% of the salary cap. As a fan, I think that is great, if they spend it right, they should be contenders, but history shows that often isn't the case. My opinion. The only way the Bills will stay(long term) is a committment from the community to either upgrade the stadium signifantly or an new stadium. Is our community will to commit to such a task? If the area hesitates the Bills will have a new home. The NFL loves to show off its new team's stadiums. WNY has an opportunity to do something really positive and put a domed stadium complex close to downtown. The potential is unlimited if done right. It could be used for other venues other than Football. Obviously the ownership will change hands eventally. This conversation might be a more of a reality to keep the Bills here than people might think.
I hate the Bills ! Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Lets just say for the sake of argument that the Bills get sold and moved to LA, so Miami and the Jets and New England will have to Fly to the west coast to play a game with another AFC East team ? I think not! I think the league will reshuffle the teams. Moving the Charges form San Diego Makes more sense, they are already a west Coast team, they wouldn't have top change divisions, and The L.A. Chargers make more sense than "LA BILLS" While the Folks in San Diego may not like losing "The Bolts" I don't an east coast team is gonna move everything to the west coast. If the Bills move anywhere I think Toronto makes more sense, they can play in the Rogers Dome, until a new stadium gets built, Toronto is only 2 hours from Buffalo and many fans will make the drive into Canada, (Many wont also). The NFL would have a beginning of expanding into Canada and The Bills wouldn't have to change divisions. I could see in say 10 years the NFL buying out the Canadian Football League.
eball Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 <snip> Wouldn't a true Phil Hansen fan be able to spell his name correctly?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Wouldn't a true Phil Hansen fan be able to spell his name correctly? You'd think so.
Hplarrm Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Because if the Bills had kept Polian, they'd have ended-up with Manning. Luck plays a huge role in life. I don't know whether he lucked into Manning or whether the Colts intentionally tanked the 1997 season in order to get him. But one spot later and they don't get him. And remember that Polian didn't draft Kelly and did draft (journeyman quality QB) Kerry Collins 5th overall. The idea that the Colts tanked the whole season to get Manning (or quite frankly any first round pick is ludicrous. Are you really offering a conspiracy theory which: A. Has to involve dozens (at least) of people conspiring together to try to lose without anyone finding out. B. Is a conspiracy that needs more people involved to have much chance of success or if fewer people are in on it this means they are screwing even more people who are trying hard to win. C. They launch this significant plot based on the idea of getting one player (or even two if you say either Manning or Leaf but the downside is in reality that you might have tanked a whole season to get Ryan Leaf. D. Indy did not have the first pick overall that season and you have tanked the season and run the risk that someone trades above you and takes Manning. E. Tanking a season clearly has implications beyond that one season as though Manning turned out to be great he led his 3-13 team that drafted him to a 3-13 record. Tanking a season for one player is simply a stupid strategy which depends upon the silence and co-operation of too many people for a speculative benefit. F. Even at that point the facts indicated against a first round QB choice delivering the team which drafted him an SB win as no first round choice since Aikman a decade earlier had led the team which drafted him to an SB win.
RTW2012 Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Lets just say for the sake of argument that the Bills get sold and moved to LA, so Miami and the Jets and New England will have to Fly to the west coast to play a game with another AFC East team ? I think not! I think the league will reshuffle the teams. Moving the Charges form San Diego Makes more sense, they are already a west Coast team, they wouldn't have top change divisions, and The L.A. Chargers make more sense than "LA BILLS" While the Folks in San Diego may not like losing "The Bolts" I don't an east coast team is gonna move everything to the west coast. If the Bills move anywhere I think Toronto makes more sense, they can play in the Rogers Dome, until a new stadium gets built, Toronto is only 2 hours from Buffalo and many fans will make the drive into Canada, (Many wont also). The NFL would have a beginning of expanding into Canada and The Bills wouldn't have to change divisions. I could see in say 10 years the NFL buying out the Canadian Football League. Divisional placement will play absolutely no role in which team moves to what city.
Doc Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 The idea that the Colts tanked the whole season to get Manning (or quite frankly any first round pick is ludicrous. Are you really offering a conspiracy theory which: A. Has to involve dozens (at least) of people conspiring together to try to lose without anyone finding out. B. Is a conspiracy that needs more people involved to have much chance of success or if fewer people are in on it this means they are screwing even more people who are trying hard to win. C. They launch this significant plot based on the idea of getting one player (or even two if you say either Manning or Leaf but the downside is in reality that you might have tanked a whole season to get Ryan Leaf. D. Indy did not have the first pick overall that season and you have tanked the season and run the risk that someone trades above you and takes Manning. E. Tanking a season clearly has implications beyond that one season as though Manning turned out to be great he led his 3-13 team that drafted him to a 3-13 record. Tanking a season for one player is simply a stupid strategy which depends upon the silence and co-operation of too many people for a speculative benefit. F. Even at that point the facts indicated against a first round QB choice delivering the team which drafted him an SB win as no first round choice since Aikman a decade earlier had led the team which drafted him to an SB win. I've learned to never rule out any possibility. And if it wasn't a concerted effort to lose games, the Colts were "lucky" to be the worst team in the NFL in 1997 and be in position to draft Manning the following year.
thewildrabbit Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Because if the Bills had kept Polian, they'd have ended-up with Manning. Luck plays a huge role in life. I don't know whether he lucked into Manning or whether the Colts intentionally tanked the 1997 season in order to get him. But one spot later and they don't get him. And remember that Polian didn't draft Kelly and did draft (journeyman quality QB) Kerry Collins 5th overall. Like Manning ...reading disorder? It was Bill Polian that had to talk Jim Kelly into becoming a Buffalo Bill, He didn't want to be a Buffalo Bill when he was drafted or when the USFL folded. I'd think that Polian would have found the Bills another top QB to lead the team at least ten years or more. Just like he did with Kelly and Manning Don't talk about luck with Bills Polain, that's Wilson's forte. After Polian was fired from Buffalo he went to Carolina and got them to the NFC championship game in the second year of their existence. Thats right, TWO FREAKING YEARS! Polian Joined the Colts in after 1997 season ended, he drafted Manning and his first year with the Colts they went 3-13, his second year with the Colts in 1999 they went 13-3. Thats right, TWO FREAKING YEARS! You can clearly see the evidence of what a great GM can do for team almost immediately, not some 5 year plan. Not some crap about Oh, the coaches had to see what they had on the field last year so last season was supposed to be a wash....what a load of crap! This owner keeps hiring bums to run and coach his teams....like I said earlier. ""Now he is just an old fool, hiring other old fools, and hoping to get lucky again""
Doc Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Like Manning ...reading disorder? It was Bill Polian that had to talk Jim Kelly into becoming a Buffalo Bill, He didn't want to be a Buffalo Bill when he was drafted or when the USFL folded. I'd think that Polian would have found the Bills another top QB to lead the team at least ten years or more. Just like he did with Kelly and Manning Don't talk about luck with Bills Polain, that's Wilson's forte. After Polian was fired from Buffalo he went to Carolina and got them to the NFC championship game in the second year of their existence. Thats right, TWO FREAKING YEARS! Polian Joined the Colts in after 1997 season ended, he drafted Manning and his first year with the Colts they went 3-13, his second year with the Colts in 1999 they went 13-3. Thats right, TWO FREAKING YEARS! You can clearly see the evidence of what a great GM can do for team almost immediately, not some 5 year plan. Not some crap about Oh, the coaches had to see what they had on the field last year so last season was supposed to be a wash....what a load of crap! This owner keeps hiring bums to run and coach his teams....like I said earlier. ""Now he is just an old fool, hiring other old fools, and hoping to get lucky again"" I got your "a QB like Manning" covered with Polian's inability to draft a QB without having the first overall pick. And as for "talking Kelly into playing for the Bills," Kelly had no choice since the Bills owned his rights for several years. I got a laugh out of "winning SB's." His teams are 1-5 in the big game, and the one won was thanks to playing a joke of a team in the Bears who lost their best player (Harris). Maybe if he wasn't giving out huge deals to stars like Kelso and Wright, the Bills could have won at least 1 of those 4 SB's.
K-9 Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 The entire reason Bill Polian was promoted was because of his shrewd negotiating tactics that involved signing Bruce Smith to his first contract while the current GM was recovering from a heart attack. Polian earned his promotion. It wasn't that he was retired at age 70 as a head scout and then hired out of retirement to a job he had never done before. Bill Polian was a one of a kind find, RW was sorta like the proverbial blind squirrel finding an acorn. Polian was Buddy Nix's exact opposite in the GM role. He was fiery and feisty, I can recall a story on him that he got down in a 3 point stance in his office and told the person he was talking to, to try and tackle him. Nix OTOH went to sleep when free agency opened, I remember him stating that is what he was going to do. The result was RT Cornell Green, about the most worthless free agent ever. Face it, Wilson was darn lucky to find Polian and smart enough to promote him and then galactic-ly stupid enough to fire him. Imagine the buffalo Bills in the playoffs the last ten years with a QB like Payton Manning and a super bowl trophy. That's what the old fool lost when he fired perhaps the most brilliant GM the NFL has seen the last 40 years. Now he is just an old fool, hiring other old fools hoping to get lucky again. The "reason" Polian was promoted is not important. There were many I'm sure. My point is that when he WAS promoted many people took shots at RW and trotted out the famous "he's too cheap" to hire an experienced GM crap. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't admit they thought RW made a mistake at the time he was named GM. I'm sure that you applauded Ralph for the move however. Polian is indeed one of a kind but he wasn't Polian before he was Polian and he didn't become Polian until somebody had the balls to put him in charge despite how unpopular that may have been with some fans. Again, I'm sure you weren't among those who thought promoting someone from within the organization was a stupid thing for RW to do after consecutive 2-14 seasons. If I imagine the Bills with Peyton Manning then I have to imagine that if Polian had stayed with the Bills he would have resided over perhaps the worst downfall in league history. They would have gone from four consecutive SB appearances to worst in the league in three seasons. Of course, HAD that happened, I'm sure you and others wouldn't have minded a bit that RW kept Polian on board, despite going from 1st to worst in such a short period. I CAN imagine Polian, like he did in Buffalo, wearing out his welcome in Carolina and becoming available to the worst franchise in the league with the number one pick in the draft and taking a blue chip QB in Peyton Manning with the selection. GO BILLS!!!
thewildrabbit Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 The "reason" Polian was promoted is not important. There were many I'm sure. My point is that when he WAS promoted many people took shots at RW and trotted out the famous "he's too cheap" to hire an experienced GM crap. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't admit they thought RW made a mistake at the time he was named GM. I'm sure that you applauded Ralph for the move however. Polian is indeed one of a kind but he wasn't Polian before he was Polian and he didn't become Polian until somebody had the balls to put him in charge despite how unpopular that may have been with some fans. Again, I'm sure you weren't among those who thought promoting someone from within the organization was a stupid thing for RW to do after consecutive 2-14 seasons. If I imagine the Bills with Peyton Manning then I have to imagine that if Polian had stayed with the Bills he would have resided over perhaps the worst downfall in league history. They would have gone from four consecutive SB appearances to worst in the league in three seasons. Of course, HAD that happened, I'm sure you and others wouldn't have minded a bit that RW kept Polian on board, despite going from 1st to worst in such a short period. I CAN imagine Polian, like he did in Buffalo, wearing out his welcome in Carolina and becoming available to the worst franchise in the league with the number one pick in the draft and taking a blue chip QB in Peyton Manning with the selection. GO BILLS!!! Horsecrap, where do you guys get this stuff from. I recall that era and nobody was saying RW was cheap for hiring Polian. Nobody knew who he was until the media informed them that it was Polian who had a major influence in Bruce Smiths first contract and RW was applauded for promoting him I think you make crap up as you go to fit whatever argument your into, provide us a link to this BS about anyone, stating anything, about RW being cheap when he hired Polian! wow, grasping at straws are we.... FYI Bill Polian was hired away from Carolina by the Colts and promoted to GM- President. He didn't wear out his welcome I can imagine you high on crack if you think Bill Polian would have brought this franchise to its knees any worse then this owner has. Your credibility just went into the ceramic convenience with this post! Now I can put you right up there with "paintmyhouse" and "alphad!ck"
eball Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) Let's see. An owner, who thru no fault of his own, is senile and mentally incompetent to make important decisions. A career scout "promoted within" to be GM, Miami Dolphin coaching failures, a guy who is most known for emailing porn, and firing your head scout a couple of days after the draft. And this is the basis for your optimism? Priceless, absolutely priceless. You've clearly established yourself as someone who will only look at the most negative perspective of anything done at OBD. I acknowledge the failures of the organization, but also see many reasons for optimism and a "plan" in place. For those who claim the drop from 7-9 to 4-12 means the team is going backwards -- well, clearly, they don't have a clue. There was a philosophy and culture from the Levy/Jauron administration that "just competing" was good enough. You've got to break a few eggs to make an omelet (or frittata). Was the 7-9 team under Jauron "almost there?" Of course it wasn't. Is Nix better than Levy? Gailey better than Jauron? Whaley a true up-and-comer? Wannstedt a proven defensive coach? If you get your rocks off by making sarcastic and flippant remarks about the Bills, so be it. Edited June 24, 2011 by eball
thewildrabbit Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 I got your "a QB like Manning" covered with Polian's inability to draft a QB without having the first overall pick. And as for "talking Kelly into playing for the Bills," Kelly had no choice since the Bills owned his rights for several years. I got a laugh out of "winning SB's." His teams are 1-5 in the big game, and the one won was thanks to playing a joke of a team in the Bears who lost their best player (Harris). Maybe if he wasn't giving out huge deals to stars like Kelso and Wright, the Bills could have won at least 1 of those 4 SB's. Kelly initially asked to be traded, Polian talked him into becoming a Buffalo Bill I get a laugh from people who ignore the fact that Polian managed to put enough quality talent on the Buffalo Bills-The Carolina Panthers- The Indy Colts in a matter of 2-3 years and then they were in the playoffs. Last time I looked Polian sits in an executive office and runs the team, he doesn't play on the field. I also get a laugh from anyone downplaying Polian's storied accomplishments as GM -president and then go on to blame him for the Bills not winning a SB. I literally when I read that. So.... Bill Polian missed that FG, and not Scott Norwood?.... man, I'll bet Scotty will be so relieved to hear that.
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