Ralph Wilson Stadium to be Smoke Free

[Bill from NYC]

Look, I do lots of stupid things myself -- I may even defend my stupid actions vigorously, but it doesn't make them any less stupid.

 

The above does well to describe human frailty, and brings to mind the phrase, "there but for the grace of God." This, in a far from eloquent way, was some of what I have been trying to get across in this thread. My money says that even those who appear to be taking a pious stance about this issue have faults and even weaknesses of their own.

 

At one of my daughters graduations, I heard Elie Wiesel make a speech. It was one of the most enlightening moments of my life. He slammed the word "tolerance" and spoke of instead having "respect." Perhaps if smokers and non-smokers would heed his words, this would be less of an issue. Or, maybe not because of the government money at stake.

 

Either way, I appreciate constructive dialogue. I remember posting on this site when "Mambo #5" was a hit song. Some people here were probably 7 or 8 years old. Cablelady was 19.

 

Thanks SDS. I sense that you find my views and personality to be trifling, but I do appreciate the forum, and the friends that I have made due to your work.

[billsfreak]

Boiled down to its simplest terms, drinking a beer doesn't bother/affect the person sitting next you. Smoking does.

That may be true in it's simplest terms, but alot of Bills fans don't fall into those terms. Alot of them after drinking 10-12 beers in the parking lot, then a handful of big beers at the stadium act like asses and ruin the whole gameday experience for everyone sitting around them. So to rebute your statement, drunken idiots sitting next to you can bother/affect you, maybe even more. Look, I like to drink beer in moderation, I am an ex-smoker who doesn't like being around smokers anymore, but to say that drinking a beer, or several beers can't bother/affect the person sitting next to you as much as some smoker up out of the stands in a corner somewhere is ridiculous. But you will never see beer taken out of the stadium because it brings in too much money. If you weren't allowed to bring in your own cigarettes but had to buy them in the stadium at some outragious price, those would never be disallowed either.

[Bill from NYC]

That may be true in it's simplest terms, but alot of Bills fans don't fall into those terms. Alot of them after drinking 10-12 beers in the parking lot, then a handful of big beers at the stadium act like asses and ruin the whole gameday experience for everyone sitting around them. So to rebute your statement, drunken idiots sitting next to you can bother/affect you, maybe even more. Look, I like to drink beer in moderation, I am an ex-smoker who doesn't like being around smokers anymore, but to say that drinking a beer, or several beers can't bother/affect the person sitting next to you as much as some smoker up out of the stands in a corner somewhere is ridiculous. But you will never see beer taken out of the stadium because it brings in too much money. If you weren't allowed to bring in your own cigarettes but had to buy them in the stadium at some outragious price, those would never be disallowed either.

 

You Go!!!!!!

[K Gun Special]

That may be true in it's simplest terms, but alot of Bills fans don't fall into those terms. Alot of them after drinking 10-12 beers in the parking lot, then a handful of big beers at the stadium act like asses and ruin the whole gameday experience for everyone sitting around them. So to rebute your statement, drunken idiots sitting next to you can bother/affect you, maybe even more. Look, I like to drink beer in moderation, I am an ex-smoker who doesn't like being around smokers anymore, but to say that drinking a beer, or several beers can't bother/affect the person sitting next to you as much as some smoker up out of the stands in a corner somewhere is ridiculous. But you will never see beer taken out of the stadium because it brings in too much money. If you weren't allowed to bring in your own cigarettes but had to buy them in the stadium at some outragious price, those would never be disallowed either.

 

No. The fact remains that drinking a beer does not affect those around you. Drunken people may, just as stupid sober idiots may. It does not, however, have the same impact as smoking.

 

Its easy to ban smoking because of the direct health effects it has on the user and the indirect effects on those around. I agree with some that perhaps there should be an area where it is still permitted.

 

You don't have a right to smoke at a game and the team is well within its discretion to ban it.

You are right that alcohol does not have the same direct effects and is a huge moneymaker.

[JohnC]

That may be true in it's simplest terms, but alot of Bills fans don't fall into those terms. Alot of them after drinking 10-12 beers in the parking lot, then a handful of big beers at the stadium act like asses and ruin the whole gameday experience for everyone sitting around them. So to rebute your statement, drunken idiots sitting next to you can bother/affect you, maybe even more. Look, I like to drink beer in moderation, I am an ex-smoker who doesn't like being around smokers anymore, but to say that drinking a beer, or several beers can't bother/affect the person sitting next to you as much as some smoker up out of the stands in a corner somewhere is ridiculous. But you will never see beer taken out of the stadium because it brings in too much money. If you weren't allowed to bring in your own cigarettes but had to buy them in the stadium at some outragious price, those would never be disallowed either.

 

Many organizations don't sell beer after the third quarter. And many organizations only sell a maximum number of beers to individuals per transaction. That is a clear recognition that maximizing revenue in the short term is not usually good business for the long term. The league and individual franchises recognize that excessive drinking is hurting the game day experience for the majority of fans who are behaving responsibly.

 

With respect to the smoking issue it has long been established that smoking in public areas, no matter where the venue, theatres, restaurants, planes etc, is not acceptable because it negatively affects the non-participants.

Edited June 17, 2011 by JohnC

[akm0404]

Smokers are now considered by many the same way that religious folks are regarded by atheists.

 

What a bunch of strange birds, doing something so illogical.

 

I know it stinks to be told that you can't do something that you like, but over time, the human trend is to weed out silly, harmful behaviors. And don't pretend that it doesn't happen to other vices - recreational drugs are out, alcohol is becoming ever-increasingly regulated and demonized.

 

In a hundred years, the concept of smoking will be as silly as the concept of the opium den. Sorry for smokers, but your time is up.

[plenzmd1]

Isn't engaging in an activity that is absolutely, positively, 100% proven to cause permanent, irreversible damage to one's vital organs the very definition of stupidity? At best, it's blind ignorance.

 

Look, I do lots of stupid things myself -- I may even defend my stupid actions vigorously, but it doesn't make them any less stupid.

 

As a former smoker, I can attest that it is not stupidity as to why people smoke, but rather fear. As mentioned, most people start smoking when young..and one's mortality is not front of mind.

 

After that, it becomes fear that prevents people from quiting smoking..don't believe me.. look at the front of a hospital..when realiztion hits that sickness and death are real, and that smoking quickens that decent..I want a smoke even more to relieve that stress

 

1) Fear I can't quit

2) fear i will no longer enjoy meals/golf/gambling/sex/ even FOOTBALL GAMES if I can't have a smoke

3) fear my lifestyle will have to change

4) fear my stress level will go up as thats how I deal with stress

There are a million of these

 

I can get on a soapbox here about how once that fear is removed, it is quite easy to quit, but that is another topic for another day.

 

For this thread though , these folks have not quit. I know it is hard for non smokers to imagine, but smokers will fear that not having a smoke for 4 hours will ruin the game for them.It sure would have for me when I was smoking 30 Reds a day. Should the 85% of people who don't smoke care about the 15% who want a smoke at the game? Thats the question. I can make the "me first" argument on both sides here.

 

I agree with crowd that said"zero tolerance in the stands..you light up and you are gone" but still have the outside area.

Edited June 17, 2011 by plenzmd1

[eball]

As a former smoker, I can attest that it is not stupidity as to why people smoke, but rather fear. As mentioned, most people start smoking when young..and one's mortality is not front of mind.

 

After that, it becomes fear that prevents people from quiting smoking..don't believe me.. look at the front of a hospital..when realiztion hits that sickness and death are real, and that smoking quickens that decent..I want a smoke even more to relieve that stress

 

1) Fear I can't quit

2) fear i will no longer enjoy meals/golf/gambling/sex/ even FOOTBALL GAMES if I can't have a smoke

3) fear my lifestyle will have to change

4) fear my stress level will go up as thats how I deal with stress

There are a million of these

 

I can get on a soapbox here about how once that fear is removed, it is quite easy to quit, but that is another topic for another day.

 

For this thread though , these folks have not quit. I know it is hard for non smokers to imagine, but smokers will fear that not having a smoke for 4 hours will ruin the game for them.It sure would have for me when I was smoking 30 Reds a day. Should the 85% of people who don't smoke care about the 15% who want a smoke at the game? Thats the question. I can make the "me first" argument on both sides here.

 

I agree with crowd that said"zero tolerance in the stands..you light up and you are gone" but still have the outside area.

That's a good post, Paul, and I don't dispute or discount your points. I think the same things can be said for any addict, though, whether from alcohol, drugs, or anything else.

 

It still doesn't take away the "stupidity" (for lack of a better word) of continuing to do something that is inherently destructive, once you've learned the truth.

[plenzmd1]

That's a good post, Paul, and I don't dispute or discount your points. I think the same things can be said for any addict, though, whether from alcohol, drugs, or anything else.

 

It still doesn't take away the "stupidity" (for lack of a better word) of continuing to do something that is inherently destructive, once you've learned the truth.

Now..on the stupid part we agree I have, and continue to do many stupid things...as my wife will greatly attest to

 

And by the way..i agree on the addiction part..again another argument for another day and don't want to piss off all the 12 steppers(but i will)... the victimization of making addicts of anything have a "disease" lets people off the hook to easy for the own actions, ...ahh I better step as I idgress form the original point of thread

Edited June 17, 2011 by plenzmd1

[Rob's House]

Since I don't want to get into a political discussion over this, I'll just say -- good. The fewer places to smoke, the better.

I agree. As a giant douche I like imposing my will on others regardless of whether their behavior has any impact on me whatsoever. I'm under the delusion that my life matters and that if I died and went to hell anyone would miss me.

[Jauronimo]

I agree. As a giant douche I like imposing my will on others regardless of whether their behavior has any impact on me whatsoever. I'm under the delusion that my life matters and that if I died and went to hell anyone would miss me.

It's about time! Enough with the respectful and well reasoned discussion that was taking place. This thread needed someone to step up and throw a verbal chair so we can get on with the Springer like sideshow that this board was undoubtedly intended to be. As Rob's House so eloquently put, this decision was clearly the result of one person's will and was in no way reflective of broader public opinion. Why can't you let us be happy eball?

Edited June 17, 2011 by Jauronimo

[McBeane]

Smokers are now considered by many the same way that religious folks are regarded by atheists.

 

What a bunch of strange birds, doing something so illogical.

 

I know it stinks to be told that you can't do something that you like, but over time, the human trend is to weed out silly, harmful behaviors. And don't pretend that it doesn't happen to other vices - recreational drugs are out, alcohol is becoming ever-increasingly regulated and demonized.

 

In a hundred years, the concept of smoking will be as silly as the concept of the opium den. Sorry for smokers, but your time is up.

 

Hate to break it to ya, but people have been smoking tobacco since around 3000 BC - 5000 BC Link (it's Wiki but if you don't believe that you can look yourself)

 

And recreational drugs are far from out. The drugs of choice may have changed, but you are clearly just unaware if you think recreational drugs are "out."

[plenzmd1]

And recreational drugs are far from out. The drugs of choice may have changed, but you are clearly just unaware if you think recreational drugs are "out."

 

Whew..thought i was really getting old..as that was my thought too

[TheMadCap]

Many organizations don't sell beer after the third quarter. And many organizations only sell a maximum number of beers to individuals per transaction. That is a clear recognition that maximizing revenue in the short term is not usually good business for the long term. The league and individual franchises recognize that excessive drinking is hurting the game day experience for the majority of fans who are behaving responsibly.

 

With respect to the smoking issue it has long been established that smoking in public areas, no matter where the venue, theatres, restaurants, planes etc, is not acceptable because it negatively affects the non-participants.

 

While I agree with nearly everything you have said, I think the part bolded has more to do with legal liability than with gameday experience. Limiting beer sales (IMO) has done little from improving the gameday experience

[Hplarrm]

 

I don't think a ban like this serves to, or even purports to stop young people from smoking. I think it was more of a situation of trying to accomodate people such as SDS, who it seems had legit problems with people smoking in seating areas, as well as anti-smoking zealots.

 

 

Actually I think the efforts to bar the number of places where adults can smoke is part and parcel of a strategy to reduce the number of kids smoking. A lot of the marketing of smoking has been to make it appear to kids as something cool and something that is a sign that a person is an adult.

 

Perhaps it has not been articulated as the strategy of anti-smoking groups (but trying to get kids to smoke has never been articulated as a strategy of the cigarette companies but clearly it is as the statistics show that if a person does not get addicted to cigs before they hit 18 they are far less likely to smoke- in fact the cigarette companies state up front that they oppose children smoking but defend the right of adults to smoke- yet the numbers clearly indicate that if the cig companies do not get people to get addicted as kids they are gonna lose a bunch of money and may go out of business).

 

The anti-smoking folks have long had a strategy of attempting to marginalize smoking by adults as a means of stopping kids from getting addicted. This is the strategy which has been behind efforts to ban smoking in workplaces (it does not look cool to see smokers huddled in doorways in cold weather and to try to eliminate smoking in movies and TV.

 

Adults end up being the direct target but the goal is all about stopping kids from getting addicted.

 

3) Your point about economics was what I was driving at. Going to an NFL game is not like going to a library or a health spa. How many times have you seen young people toss footballs that wind up near charcoal grills? Have you seen drunks get in fights that cause injuries? The smoking ban probably won't cost them much money. Banning alcohol would, thus the hypocrisy. Imo bbqs will be next. The grills are dangerous, the fumes are unhealthy and the sight of burning animal flesh is offensive to militant vegetarians. And, they might sell more food inside. But, alcohol will certainly be banned at some point imo, at the very least in the parking lots.

 

People will always have vices. Searching for that utopia is a lost cause. It is also noteworthy that the policy was announced by a person who is good at making money and bad at providing the fans a winning product.

I doubt they will go after grills because the goal of the anti-smoking forces is not to protect kids from all smoke but to marginalize cigarette smoking as a cool adult activity. The tailgating piece I suspect is being implemented as a crowd control effort as the thought is that many of the unruly fans who are blotto may be reduced by cutting back on an hour of tailgating.

 

My guess is that tailgating is great from the Bills perspective because it makes for good storytelling. Its wonderful for their to be rabid fans who gather for the event and devote the whole day to it. However, losing an hour of tailgating will still allow the TV networks to depict the story of rabid fans and the only thing which will be lost in an hour of tailgating is additional blottoness of a few fans.

[billsfreak]

Actually I think the efforts to bar the number of places where adults can smoke is part and parcel of a strategy to reduce the number of kids smoking. A lot of the marketing of smoking has been to make it appear to kids as something cool and something that is a sign that a person is an adult.

 

Perhaps it has not been articulated as the strategy of anti-smoking groups (but trying to get kids to smoke has never been articulated as a strategy of the cigarette companies but clearly it is as the statistics show that if a person does not get addicted to cigs before they hit 18 they are far less likely to smoke- in fact the cigarette companies state up front that they oppose children smoking but defend the right of adults to smoke- yet the numbers clearly indicate that if the cig companies do not get people to get addicted as kids they are gonna lose a bunch of money and may go out of business).

 

The anti-smoking folks have long had a strategy of attempting to marginalize smoking by adults as a means of stopping kids from getting addicted. This is the strategy which has been behind efforts to ban smoking in workplaces (it does not look cool to see smokers huddled in doorways in cold weather and to try to eliminate smoking in movies and TV.

 

Adults end up being the direct target but the goal is all about stopping kids from getting addicted.

 

 

I doubt they will go after grills because the goal of the anti-smoking forces is not to protect kids from all smoke but to marginalize cigarette smoking as a cool adult activity. The tailgating piece I suspect is being implemented as a crowd control effort as the thought is that many of the unruly fans who are blotto may be reduced by cutting back on an hour of tailgating.

 

My guess is that tailgating is great from the Bills perspective because it makes for good storytelling. Its wonderful for their to be rabid fans who gather for the event and devote the whole day to it. However, losing an hour of tailgating will still allow the TV networks to depict the story of rabid fans and the only thing which will be lost in an hour of tailgating is additional blottoness of a few fans.

Just to be the Devil's Advocate, wouldn't the smoke from the BBQ grills or the exhaust from the campers and RVs, or for that matter the cigarette, cigar and pipe smoking in the parking lot be considered dangerous to other people's health? You do have to walk through the parking lot to get to the stadium. What if a guy next to you after a hard night of drinking at a chili cook-off farts all game long, is that bad for you? Maybe they should have a farting section, or just ban it all together. Money is behind all decisions, or at least plays a big part in all decisions. Banning smoking is an easy decision because they don't make money off of them. One of the biggest (if not the biggest) problems with the health of children in this country right now is obesity, so are those hamburgers, cheese fries, hot dogs, etc. good for them? Ban them too, if they are really worried about kids health. Oh wait, you can't they will lose money. I am a non-smoker myself, but like I said just having some fun playing the Devil's Advocate.

[thebandit27]

Just to be the Devil's Advocate, wouldn't the smoke from the BBQ grills or the exhaust from the campers and RVs, or for that matter the cigarette, cigar and pipe smoking in the parking lot be considered dangerous to other people's health? You do have to walk through the parking lot to get to the stadium. What if a guy next to you after a hard night of drinking at a chili cook-off farts all game long, is that bad for you? Maybe they should have a farting section, or just ban it all together. Money is behind all decisions, or at least plays a big part in all decisions. Banning smoking is an easy decision because they don't make money off of them. One of the biggest (if not the biggest) problems with the health of children in this country right now is obesity, so are those hamburgers, cheese fries, hot dogs, etc. good for them? Ban them too, if they are really worried about kids health. Oh wait, you can't they will lose money. I am a non-smoker myself, but like I said just having some fun playing the Devil's Advocate.

 

To my knowledge, the team hasn't banned smoking from the parking lot, just as they haven't banned grills, exhaust, or farting. However, you can't bring your grill into the stadium, and you can't bring your car in either, so I supposed by making your argument, you've actually highlighted the antithesis of your point: smoking is the last of those activities to be banned inside the stadium. I'd worry about them banning farts too, but that seems significantly more difficult (and would severely limit some fans' most intelligent form of communication to boot).

 

As for your comment about the food served at concession stands, nobody is forcing anyone to eat that food; it's a choice. You can't, however, control what air you breath in; if someone else around you is smoking, and you take a breath, you may breath in their smoke. You aren't going to accidentally eat their cheeseburger or fries.

Edited June 17, 2011 by thebandit27

[billsfreak]

Actually I think the efforts to bar the number of places where adults can smoke is part and parcel of a strategy to reduce the number of kids smoking. A lot of the marketing of smoking has been to make it appear to kids as something cool and something that is a sign that a person is an adult.

 

Perhaps it has not been articulated as the strategy of anti-smoking groups (but trying to get kids to smoke has never been articulated as a strategy of the cigarette companies but clearly it is as the statistics show that if a person does not get addicted to cigs before they hit 18 they are far less likely to smoke- in fact the cigarette companies state up front that they oppose children smoking but defend the right of adults to smoke- yet the numbers clearly indicate that if the cig companies do not get people to get addicted as kids they are gonna lose a bunch of money and may go out of business).

 

The anti-smoking folks have long had a strategy of attempting to marginalize smoking by adults as a means of stopping kids from getting addicted. This is the strategy which has been behind efforts to ban smoking in workplaces (it does not look cool to see smokers huddled in doorways in cold weather and to try to eliminate smoking in movies and TV.

 

Adults end up being the direct target but the goal is all about stopping kids from getting addicted.

 

 

I doubt they will go after grills because the goal of the anti-smoking forces is not to protect kids from all smoke but to marginalize cigarette smoking as a cool adult activity. The tailgating piece I suspect is being implemented as a crowd control effort as the thought is that many of the unruly fans who are blotto may be reduced by cutting back on an hour of tailgating.

 

My guess is that tailgating is great from the Bills perspective because it makes for good storytelling. Its wonderful for their to be rabid fans who gather for the event and devote the whole day to it. However, losing an hour of tailgating will still allow the TV networks to depict the story of rabid fans and the only thing which will be lost in an hour of tailgating is additional blottoness of a few fans.

That is true, I was just reading yesterday how the fans start tailgating 5 hours before a game. Oh well, it is 4 hours now, gotta change that story.

 

To my knowledge, the team hasn't banned smoking from the parking lot, just as they haven't banned grills, exhaust, or farting. However, you can't bring your grill into the stadium, and you can't bring your car in either, so I supposed by making your argument, you've actually highlighted the antithesis of your point: smoking is the last of those activities to be banned inside the stadium. I'd worry about them banning farts too, but that seems significantly more difficult (and would severely limit some fans' most intelligent form of communication to boot).

 

As for your comment about the food served at concession stands, nobody is forcing anyone to eat that food; it's a choice. You can't, however, control what air you breath in; if someone else around you is smoking, and you take a breath, you may breath in their smoke. You aren't going to accidentally eat their cheeseburger or fries.

You are wrong, my point is by walking through the parking lot to get to the gate, you are just as close to those people smoking, the grills, etc. as you are when you are in your seat and people are up in a corner out of the stands smoking. Just trying to kill some time playing the Devil's Advocate, but I hope they don't ban farting, those come in handy on those cold game days, kinda sends some warm air up your clothes-and it feels awesome.

[thebandit27]

You are wrong, my point is by walking through the parking lot to get to the gate, you are just as close to those people smoking, the grills, etc. as you are when you are in your seat and people are up in a corner out of the stands smoking. Just trying to kill some time playing the Devil's Advocate, but I hope they don't ban farting, those come in handy on those cold game days, kinda sends some warm air up your clothes-and it feels awesome.

 

I understand you're killing time, and that's fine, but it's still a false analogy with regards to banning smoking inside the stadium.

 

And yes, if they ban farting, I'll be the first to revolt.

[Rob's House]

To my knowledge, the team hasn't banned smoking from the parking lot, just as they haven't banned grills, exhaust, or farting. However, you can't bring your grill into the stadium, and you can't bring your car in either, so I supposed by making your argument, you've actually highlighted the antithesis of your point: smoking is the last of those activities to be banned inside the stadium. I'd worry about them banning farts too, but that seems significantly more difficult (and would severely limit some fans' most intelligent form of communication to boot).

 

As for your comment about the food served at concession stands, nobody is forcing anyone to eat that food; it's a choice. You can't, however, control what air you breath in; if someone else around you is smoking, and you take a breath, you may breath in their smoke. You aren't going to accidentally eat their cheeseburger or fries.

This is a pretty weak argument. If you have designated smoking areas this really isn't a concern. If you're so sensitive that catching a distant whiff of smoke is going to ruin your experience, maybe you're the one who needs to change to accommodate others. This is just another example of a vocal minority of busy body activists ruining someone else's experience, and the apathetic majority says screw em, I don't smoke anyway so I'm happy to greatly inconvenience others as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.