Ralph Wilson Stadium to be Smoke Free

[SDS]

What should happen to drunks who assault and injure others both in and out of the stadium? Do you have an equally imaginative scenario for them?

 

Why don't you start a new thread with your totally separate concerns Bill? Then I can offer a response to that issue where it belongs.

[RealityCheck]

All I have to say is thank you Ralph. It's about time.

[DrDawkinstein]

Sorry.

 

No need, bud. I know where you are coming from in your posting, and also understand posts can be easily misconstrued. Especially when I stuck to the "rights" theme. It's all good.

 

Go Bills!

[Delete This Account]

see, and this is the thing. smoking causes cancer. duh.

 

i hate to sound insensitive, but of all the people that i've known, one has died directly as a result of smoking.

my dad didn't smoke, and yet he died.

my stepdad smokes, and he died as a result of smoking.

friends/colleagues of mine have died, none of which had to do with smoking.

my old aunt is dying but it is the result of her body wearing down.

a close friend of mine's dad died while having what was supposed to be a routine procedure.

my wife's dear aunt died six months after her husband died. neither of them smoked. they lived in the country no less.

 

hunter s. thompson died of a self-inflicted gun shot wound after he was essentially forced into a wheel chair after he broke his hip in a bathroom in hawaii.

bob stinson, the guitarist for the replacements was found dead of an overdose, if i recall correctly.

 

i've covered plane crashes and murder trials, fatal car accidents and overdoses on the seedy streets of vancouver.

i remember going to a funeral when i was young for a family friend who was killed while hunting.

i went to a funeral of another family friend who died only to have them discover another member of the family died en route to the funeral.

 

what the? life and death are funny that way, and by funny, i sometimes mean strange.

 

whether i smoke or stop smoking or never smoked in my life, i know one sure thing: i will die. it might not be pleasant. it might be quick. i might fall out of a building for that matter.

people die.

the minute we're born, we come closer to death. that's the truth. how it happens, why it happens, whether it can or can't be prevented, well, the clock's ticking people.

and to me -- and this is my personal opinion -- i shall not spend time worrying about that time coming, if it's tomorrow, if it's the next moment. life's too short on that whole end, so i'll bang away at this keyboard for as long as i can, and continue dealing with life on my terms.

 

i shall abide by what laws are important, and bend as many as i can, because in the end there are far too many rules bearing down on us to count. i'll rip off the goddam tags off pillow cushions, i'll go 5 maybe even 10 miles above the speed limit, i'll drink too much, smoke too often and howl as much as i can at that twisted moon. i might even not wash my hands every time i go to the bathroom for cripes sake.

and when the time comes, i shall pass.

so then go have a party, play "Here Comes a Regular," followed by "Can't Hardly Wait" and then move on with your lives. because i shall be forgotten soon enough.

 

that's life. that's death.

apply the choke hold if you want. i'll fight that sucker to the end.

 

jw

[DC Tom]

You're all missing the bigger point: who's really going to be hurt by this? Cigarette sellers. This is nothing more that Ralph Wilson, the Buffalo Bills organization, and New York State declaring economic warfare on the Native Americans.

[May Day 10]

I wish they wouldn't have gone to the other extreme. Start by strict enforcement of the existing smoking lanes. Try a further away smoking area. I don't think I have ever been to a venue (out of about 20 pro venues) that don't allow for a smoking area.

[CodeMonkey]

To all the smokers, you might want to try those electronic smokeless cigarettes. I know a couple people that switched to them because they got sick of feeling like a drug addicted outcast having to go outside or to a designated outcast area to smoke. They love the things. Only puff a couple of times instead of having to smoke an entire stick, and it is legal to use anywhere.

 

No simple solution for the raging alcoholics at the games though.

Edited June 16, 2011 by CodeMonkey

[Ramius]

I think there should be a designated, fenced-in smoking area within the Ralph. I also think they should place the raging drunks they drag out in the same area, so they can puke on and beat the piss out of the smokers instead of innocent fans.

 

Kills 2 birds with 1 stone by getting the 2 most obnoxious groups of people out of the stands.

[Peace]

Bravo, wonderful news. It's a great first step since so many people hate the smoking stench.

 

The next step should be alchohol but as SDS is right to point out, that's issue 2 and affects more people and more revenue.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Good, nothing worse than having smell and breath that crap in.

[Van_phelaN1]

with all due respect, i was responding to the one poster who wrote that they're not going to feel sorry for me. fine. i'm not asking for sympathy. i also question the one poster's tone to Bill/NYC, who suggested he has bigger issues if he can't get through three hours without having a fix.

 

why?

 

we are the new lepers. a dwindling minority. fine. but there are too many hints of the tsk-tskers that have come aboard on this thread, much like we smokers encounter occasionally outside the bars and buildings where we smoke that provide us evil-eye looks. uhhh, what do you want us to do. you've kicked us out of the bar and out of the buildings, and now you're wondering what we're doing out here. well, smoking. that's what in fact we are doing.

 

as for rights, i do have the right to smoke in a legally designated space. and when that right is taken away, then we all know, the terrorists will have won, no.

 

jw

 

ha, ha bbb.

 

Oh no, I can understand where you come from don't get me wrong. When I used to smoke I couldn't stand people who would make coughing sounds as they walked by that were obviously fake and meant as insult. As if I was standing right next to them or something. I understand why people who don't smoke don't want to be around it and I can also understand how smokers feel like they are getting the short end of the stick on everything.

 

Hopefully this doesn't create a tyrannical security regime at the Ralph as the search and water board people to find out if they are hiding cigarettes on them.

 

You are going to search me WHERE??

[papazoid]

see, and this is the thing. smoking causes cancer. duh.

 

i hate to sound insensitive, but of all the people that i've known, one has died directly as a result of smoking.

my dad didn't smoke, and yet he died.

my stepdad smokes, and he died as a result of smoking.

friends/colleagues of mine have died, none of which had to do with smoking.

my old aunt is dying but it is the result of her body wearing down.

a close friend of mine's dad died while having what was supposed to be a routine procedure.

my wife's dear aunt died six months after her husband died. neither of them smoked. they lived in the country no less.

 

hunter s. thompson died of a self-inflicted gun shot wound after he was essentially forced into a wheel chair after he broke his hip in a bathroom in hawaii.

bob stinson, the guitarist for the replacements was found dead of an overdose, if i recall correctly.

 

i've covered plane crashes and murder trials, fatal car accidents and overdoses on the seedy streets of vancouver.

i remember going to a funeral when i was young for a family friend who was killed while hunting.

i went to a funeral of another family friend who died only to have them discover another member of the family died en route to the funeral.

 

what the? life and death are funny that way, and by funny, i sometimes mean strange.

 

whether i smoke or stop smoking or never smoked in my life, i know one sure thing: i will die. it might not be pleasant. it might be quick. i might fall out of a building for that matter.

people die.

the minute we're born, we come closer to death. that's the truth. how it happens, why it happens, whether it can or can't be prevented, well, the clock's ticking people.

and to me -- and this is my personal opinion -- i shall not spend time worrying about that time coming, if it's tomorrow, if it's the next moment. life's too short on that whole end, so i'll bang away at this keyboard for as long as i can, and continue dealing with life on my terms.

 

i shall abide by what laws are important, and bend as many as i can, because in the end there are far too many rules bearing down on us to count. i'll rip off the goddam tags off pillow cushions, i'll go 5 maybe even 10 miles above the speed limit, i'll drink too much, smoke too often and howl as much as i can at that twisted moon. i might even not wash my hands every time i go to the bathroom for cripes sake.

and when the time comes, i shall pass.

so then go have a party, play "Here Comes a Regular," followed by "Can't Hardly Wait" and then move on with your lives. because i shall be forgotten soon enough.

 

that's life. that's death.

apply the choke hold if you want. i'll fight that sucker to the end.

 

jw

 

say you were in a public park......workers came by spraying all the trees around you with pesticides...they also sprayed your shelter with insecticides....all known carcinogens......you and your family inhaled some of this......would you be ok with this ?

[SDS]

Just to make a clarifying comment (and I would like to thank JW because I think he read and understood my beef is with the arguments and not the smokers or the habit)...

 

I don't belittle anyone's addiction, nor have I preached about any evils. My beef is with those making foolish arguments that are dismissive of MY experience.

 

Ultimately, your lack of compassion for me (and other non-smokers) results in a lack of compassion for you and the wind is at my back on the issue.

 

I also want to thank many of the ex-smokers who have shared their experiences on both sides of the issue. It is a shame more smokers don't take your words to heart.

[Hplarrm]

E-man, this is utter b.s. I mean absolute nonsense. Approx. 75% of domestic violence cases involve alcohol. This I know. What percentage of fights at RWS and accidents after the game do YOU think involve alcohol? C'mon.....let's have an honest conversation here.

 

My point is that if something need be banned, alcohol would be MUCH more important to the health and safety of those who attend games. I have been posting back and forth with you for years and cannot think of a way how you could possibly dispute this. You are obviously a smart person.

 

Please put away the PC nonsense and have a serious conversation.

This to me is another indicator of a couple of points.

 

1. A big key to the general societal movement to restrict smoking in public facilities was when these gathering points began to realize how much expense they were hit with due to smoking. The airlines were one of the first because they were able to calculate how much they were spending on replacing or cleaning air filters clogged by cigarette smoke. It simply proved to be a great savings for them (and other public facilities not to have to pay bucks so some customers could "enjoy" this addiction. In addition to an air filter replacement charge, facility users also found great savings in not having to replace upholstery burned by cigarettes and other general costs.

 

The health stuff is important but ultimately not the driver in making change happen (but one should consider if the tar is doing this to a filter then think about what it is doing to your lungs).

 

2. There is a pretty hard to deny benefit of all the flat out bans, taxes and other inconveniences which are hard to justify in principle in terms of adults making choices, but all of these barriers do making it a bad choice for a kid to take up smoking. Is there anyone out there who thinks that kids should be free or even encourage to smoke?

 

I do not think so.

 

In fact most people pretty actively feel that kids should be discouraged from smoking. Do you have a problem with that?

 

The kicker in all of this is that the studies pretty clearly show that if people do not begin smoking until they are 18 that the number of smokers goes way down.

 

Smoking is generally a choice people make when they are young, inexperienced and not as bright as they are going to be. I think heavy cigarette taxes are a great thing because when kids see they are going to have to pay 8 bucks pack in order to smoke they simply choose to spend their nickels on some other habit or vice.

 

I would think adult smokers even though pissed by the inconveniences they are forced to bear because of their adult choice would actually be accepting of these inconveniences being real barriers to stop kids from smoking.

 

The kicker is that once a kid becomes an adult without smoking they are far less likely to become a smoker because you generally have to be pretty juvenile to take up the habit.

[Bill from NYC]

Just to make a clarifying comment (and I would like to thank JW because I think he read and understood my beef is with the arguments and not the smokers or the habit)...

 

I don't belittle anyone's addiction, nor have I preached about any evils. My beef is with those making foolish arguments that are dismissive of MY experience.

 

Ultimately, your lack of compassion for me (and other non-smokers) results in a lack of compassion for you and the wind is at my back on the issue.

 

I also want to thank many of the ex-smokers who have shared their experiences on both sides of the issue. It is a shame more smokers don't take your words to heart.

 

I don't think that everyone lacks compassion. Obviously, we are all subject to things in life that we find unpleasant or unhealthy. And yes, you are on the winning side of this issue. There are enough government subsidized organizations to demonize all smokers just enough to raise taxes and create yet another American "enemy." This is not unprecedented

 

As someone said, at least this was the Bills and not the government who made this ill advised decision. It is up to me to do the same, and I have decided not to attend a game.

I do hope that as people are searched and cigarettes are seized as contraband, some people here see what is happening in this country.

 

I just read that Buffalo is the second poorest city in America behind Detroit. My wish is that citizens, leaders and business people find ways to solve these issues, and do so by focusing on things that mean more than the elimination of designated outdoor smoking areas in a football stadium.

 

This to me is another indicator of a couple of points.

 

1. A big key to the general societal movement to restrict smoking in public facilities was when these gathering points began to realize how much expense they were hit with due to smoking. The airlines were one of the first because they were able to calculate how much they were spending on replacing or cleaning air filters clogged by cigarette smoke. It simply proved to be a great savings for them (and other public facilities not to have to pay bucks so some customers could "enjoy" this addiction. In addition to an air filter replacement charge, facility users also found great savings in not having to replace upholstery burned by cigarettes and other general costs.

 

The health stuff is important but ultimately not the driver in making change happen (but one should consider if the tar is doing this to a filter then think about what it is doing to your lungs).

 

2. There is a pretty hard to deny benefit of all the flat out bans, taxes and other inconveniences which are hard to justify in principle in terms of adults making choices, but all of these barriers do making it a bad choice for a kid to take up smoking. Is there anyone out there who thinks that kids should be free or even encourage to smoke?

 

I do not think so.

 

In fact most people pretty actively feel that kids should be discouraged from smoking. Do you have a problem with that?

 

The kicker in all of this is that the studies pretty clearly show that if people do not begin smoking until they are 18 that the number of smokers goes way down.

 

Smoking is generally a choice people make when they are young, inexperienced and not as bright as they are going to be. I think heavy cigarette taxes are a great thing because when kids see they are going to have to pay 8 bucks pack in order to smoke they simply choose to spend their nickels on some other habit or vice.

 

I would think adult smokers even though pissed by the inconveniences they are forced to bear because of their adult choice would actually be accepting of these inconveniences being real barriers to stop kids from smoking.

 

The kicker is that once a kid becomes an adult without smoking they are far less likely to become a smoker because you generally have to be pretty juvenile to take up the habit.

 

You makes sense, but I noticed that you were responding to my post about alcohol. Any thoughts about that particular post?

[billsfreak]

I would just as soon if they are going to ban smoking totally (I am a non-smoker) that they ban beer sales too. Having someone smoke in a way off area away from the stands isn't as bad as having a drunk ass around you ruining the whole game day experience for you, as well as many other families and young kids. They will never do that though for one reason-people bring there own cigarettes for the most part to the stadium, so they don't lose money like they do if they don't sell beer.

[CodeMonkey]

I would just as soon if they are going to ban smoking totally (I am a non-smoker) that they ban beer sales too. Having someone smoke in a way off area away from the stands isn't as bad as having a drunk ass around you ruining the whole game day experience for you, as well as many other families and young kids. They will never do that though for one reason-people bring there own cigarettes for the most part to the stadium, so they don't lose money like they do if they don't sell beer.

Absolutely no way that is happening. Like everything in the NFL, its all about the money. $9 beers is a big money maker for the concession people.

[Hplarrm]

I don't think that everyone lacks compassion. Obviously, we are all subject to things in life that we find unpleasant or unhealthy. And yes, you are on the winning side of this issue. There are enough government subsidized organizations to demonize all smokers just enough to raise taxes and create yet another American "enemy." This is not unprecedented

 

As someone said, at least this was the Bills and not the government who made this ill advised decision. It is up to me to do the same, and I have decided not to attend a game.

I do hope that as people are searched and cigarettes are seized as contraband, some people here see what is happening in this country.

 

I just read that Buffalo is the second poorest city in America behind Detroit. My wish is that citizens, leaders and business people find ways to solve these issues, and do so by focusing on things that mean more than the elimination of designated outdoor smoking areas in a football stadium.

 

 

 

You makes sense, but I noticed that you were responding to my post about alcohol. Any thoughts about that particular post?

Again its the golden rule (he who has the gold rules).

 

Both drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco are odious habits subject to abuse which in principle are choices that a free society should generally feel fine about adults choosing.

 

However, there also is a pretty reasonable principle which I think even heavy smokers or heavy drinkers would agree with that we should not allow, encourage and actually its quite justifiable to actively discourage kids from smoking or drinking Do you or others not agree with this because if one doesn't then there is another conversation we might usefully have.

 

One of the ironies in this is that actually as far as it goes, I think the smoking versus drinking comparison actually tends to justify more restrictions on children drinking than on children smoking (again both are easy calls for me that it is easily justifiable in principle to not encourage and actually to discourage kids from either smoking or drinking alcohol.

 

However, as far as it goes it is easier for me to see justification in banning drinking than banning smoking (yes secondhand smoke can harm others so smokers should be pretty cognizant of their habit harming others) but the potential and measurable harms of drunken driving makes it easier for me to ban drinking than ban smoking.

 

However, again there are fundamental differences between alcohol and tabaco use which makes comparison between the two silly.

 

1. It is possible to use alcohol in a manner that is not harmful and in fact even helpful based on medical studies. 2. However, when used as directed cigarette smoke can be harmful and in fact fatal.

 

It is these two general facts which I think making taking action to discourage minors from smoking is easily justifiable. In fact, I would think that even a heavy smoker would accept the many additional costs and inconvenience which society places on smokers simply because these inconveniences or even transgressions against the rights of smokers is pretty justifiable in order to discourage kids from smoking.

 

Bill I know from your posts your posts you are a pretty reasonable and thoughtful person. Do you think that the heavy taxes and things like the ban at the Ralph even though they are incorrect in principal to lay on adults also are at least somewhat justifiable as an effort to discourage minors from smoking?

 

The other oddity which must be taken into consideration is that the experience of our society is that though outright bans on socially undesirable or harmful activities can be effective (for example a libertarian might argue that the market should determine whether we use lead in gasoline, however, I am all for our society choosing to bad lead as a gasoline additive because this ban resulted in a plummet in the rate of lead poisoning of kids and lead poisoning simply makes kids stupid. I am glad we did not leave this to the marketplace. However, as we learned in prohibition, an outright ban on liquor sales resulted in more binge drinking of contaminated bathtub gin and a huge boon for organized crime.

 

Bans on alcohol simply do not work without regard to principle. Sure the censure and bans on cigarettes also have been a boon for organized crime but there is simply no comparison between the impacts of banning both substance.

 

In the final estimation though the determining factor here in terms of action on either smoking or drinking remains the golden rule. There are simply too many economic downsides in terms of public facilities from airplanes replacing air filters of restaurants and hotels having to replace counter tops and chairs with cigarette burns for them to look for an opportunity not to pay a hidden subsidy for smoking.

 

Likewise, the economics of selling tobacco simply do not compare to the economic gain to be had from liquor sales.

 

Between the principle justification of fighting smoking by minors and also maintaining the economic benefits of alcohol sells the principle of letting adults do what they want simply falls by the wayside.

[billsfreak]

Absolutely no way that is happening. Like everything in the NFL, its all about the money. $9 beers is a big money maker for the concession people.

That is pretty much what my post says?

[erynthered]

Alcohol and tobacco fall into the same category when talking about “The Sin Tax”

 

I think it’s perfectly fine to enter alcohol into this debate.