Big Labor is in Big Trouble

[OCinBuffalo]

Big Labor is in big trouble.

 

I predicted this would happen, to include the Democrats turning on them. pBills predicted there would be a major uprising of public support for unions. I am right, again. He is not, again.

 

1. As I have been saying: This is only the beginning. Now that the example has been set that not only Republican, but high-profile Democratic governors in high-profile blue states, can push the unions aside, it's only going to get worse for the unions. The very last thing you wanted was for the Democrats governors to think they could do it, too.

 

2. As I have been saying: This whole thing could have been avoided, had the unions not acted stupidly. They will lose even harder if they continue with the a-holes in the streets and the recall votes nobody wants. These fools have already damaged unions in general severely. Every company will declare open season on their unions over the next year. So will every government. They will do this because: it's an election year and nobody will help the unions. The public opinion edge the unions should have focused on keeping, as it was their #1 possession since the 1930s, is now gone.

 

3. I don't buy into the "other groups" argument all that much because the union "DID" have an automatic money raiser in forced union dues. These other groups do not. I see this netting out to be a deficit for the Democrats on the whole. Yeah, yeah, in pure numbers George Soros/Hollywood can probably make up the difference or whatever, but they don't have the legitimacy that a large number of middle class workers did. The Soros money that lets a Democrat buy 10 commercials is easily countered by a Republican appearing on the talk shows, which costs nothing, and saying the words "corruption of our political process", "socialist", "agenda to radically chance America by force", and George Soros. Union political $ could not be dismissed so easily, since it comes from average Americans.

 

4. This is another example of the far-left killing the Democratic party. The far-right is nowhere near as detrimental to the overall political agenda of those on the right as the far-left is to those on the left. Again, they will try to blame Republicans for what they did to themselves. Again, everybody will call BS, and then not care.

 

Well now, let's see if pBills wants to keep telling us how scared we should all be of the "consequences" . Let's see if he thinks Mario Cuomo, or Scott Walker or Chris Christie or John Kasich, for that matter, are going to be doing anything other than gaining huge political capital from going toe to toe with the unions and winning...in a fight they knew was already won. The unions were dumb enough to walk right into it, rather than deferring and waiting until the conditions suited them instead. Hubris in rare form.

 

I wonder if the boycott on the Wisconsin "Republican" bank matters? I wonder if the threat to boycott any business that didn't openly support the unions matters? I wonder if, for the first time a veeeery long time, the unions will be an issue to be attacked, rather than an entity to be coddled, in a Presidential election. I wonder how that will make pBills feel. And, remember, this is for posterity so, let's hope he'll be honest.

Edited May 18, 2011 by OCinBuffalo

[pBills]

Big Labor is in big trouble.

 

I predicted this would happen, to include the Democrats turning on them. pBills predicted there would be a major uprising of public support for unions. I am right, again. He is not, again.

 

1. As I have been saying: This is only the beginning. Now that the example has been set that not only Republican, but high-profile Democratic governors in high-profile blue states, can push the unions aside, it's only going to get worse for the unions. The very last thing you wanted was for the Democrats governors to think they could do it, too.

 

2. As I have been saying: This whole thing could have been avoided, had the unions not acted stupidly. They will lose even harder if they continue with the a-holes in the streets and the recall votes nobody wants. These fools have already damaged unions in general severely. Every company will declare open season on their unions over the next year. So will every government. They will do this because: it's an election year and nobody will help the unions. The public opinion edge the unions should have focused on keeping, as it was their #1 possession since the 1930s, is now gone.

 

3. I don't buy into the "other groups" argument all that much because the union "DID" have an automatic money raiser in forced union dues. These other groups do not. I see this netting out to be a deficit for the Democrats on the whole. Yeah, yeah, in pure numbers George Soros/Hollywood can probably make up the difference or whatever, but they don't have the legitimacy that a large number of middle class workers did. The Soros money that lets a Democrat buy 10 commercials is easily countered by a Republican appearing on the talk shows, which costs nothing, and saying the words "corruption of our political process", "socialist", "agenda to radically chance America by force", and George Soros. Union political $ could not be dismissed so easily, since it comes from average Americans.

 

4. This is another example of the far-left killing the Democratic party. The far-right is nowhere near as detrimental to the overall political agenda of those on the right as the far-left is to those on the left. Again, they will try to blame Republicans for what they did to themselves. Again, everybody will call BS, and then not care.

 

Well now, let's see if pBills wants to keep telling us how scared we should all be of the "consequences" . Let's see if he thinks Mario Cuomo, or Scott Walker or Chris Christie or John Kasich, for that matter, are going to be doing anything other than gaining huge political capital from going toe to toe with the unions and winning...in a fight they knew was already won. The unions were dumb enough to walk right into it, rather than deferring and waiting until the conditions suited them instead. Hubris in rare form.

 

I wonder if the boycott on the Wisconsin "Republican" bank matters? I wonder if the threat to boycott any business that didn't openly support the unions matters? I wonder if, for the first time a veeeery long time, the unions will be an issue to be attacked, rather than an entity to be coddled, in a Presidential election. I wonder how that will make pBills feel. And, remember, this is for posterity so, let's hope he'll be honest.

 

 

 

1. You're talking about the democrats in NH. Yes, they received backing from the unions and turned their backs on them. Which is why they will not have union endorsements in the future. Very simple. Also, because their actions many unions are thinking of doing what the IAFF is doing and pulling their PAC money from Federal Campaigns and moving it to other items.

 

2. So unions were acting stupidly because they were marching in the streets, wanting to have their voices heard when fighting to keep their Collective Bargaining Rights? So I guess you hated seeing the Tea Party people in the streets as well? What about their talk about recalls or voting people out of office? I guess speaking out and pushing to use your vote in order to gain change is a bad thing.

 

3. Forced union dues. Usually when someone joins a group or organization they have dues. I guess in the unions case they should be allowed to be a member, receive the benefits that unions bargain for yet not pay dues. Ok? It's so bad for their dues to come out of their paychecks. Oh the horror. You talk about Soros, are you forgetting the Koch Brothers? Believe me the poor Republican Party has MANY huge donors.

 

4. Far left…. I agree in part they are hurting the Democratic Party. I would much rather see the party leaning more towards center and most Democrats I know feel the same way. If you pay attention you will see the Republicans on the far right doing the same thing to their party. People on the left and right are getting sick of the extreme party views and need/ want things to get done in Washington. The way for that to happen? Both parties moving towards the center.

 

 

• 
   
  
• Mario Cuomo is doing what many others are doing… planning to raise the retirement age, working towards having employees pay a bit more towards pensions, etc.
  
• Scott Walker is a freak show… lied about true intentions. Wisconsin's Pension Plan was/is one of the healthiest in the country. Also those, as you call them bad union people, gave into concessions offering to pay more towards pensions and benefits. Did you also know that Walker is making efforts to push his own appointees into state agencies. In other words he needs more people that share and will protect his ideas.
  
• Chris Christie - he's a blow hard. Big mouth and honestly I think people will not agree with his policies. Getting boo'ed during a commencement speech. Awesome.
  
• Kasich - Another one I am not terribly worried about. He pushed through Legislation in Ohio, even removing people within the Republican Party who didn't share his view. Nice guy. Good thing is that there should be enough votes to put that legislation to a vote by the people and out of his dirty little hands.
  

 

Bottom line, I have no problem with States asking union members to pay a bit more towards pensions/benefits. However that should be enough. Again, I love the fact that republicans played their hand so early. LOVE IT!!

 

You may not agree with me and I really don't care if you do. There has been a huge amount of people signing up with pro-union groups since the Wisconsin thing went down. There continue to be rallies all over the country. Some as large as 10,000+. Unions did screw up and didn't fight hard enough against these people who don't care about the middle-class during the past election. That will not happen again. Democrats, Progressives, etc. ARE letting their voices be heard and will continue to do so in the next election. Now as far as unions being coddled… come on. I am sure you positive you think that large oil companies still deserve their tax breaks right? Aren't they being coddled? Funny how they pay taxes everywhere else in the world, BUT the U.S.

 

By the way… I am always honest. I always speak my mind whether you like it or not. That won't change.

[DC Tom]

By the way… I am always honest. I always speak my mind whether you like it or not. That won't change.

 

Did you ever consider speaking your lungs or kidneys?

 

I'm just wondering if they're any more rational...

[Magox]

u] I am right, again. He is not, again.[/u]

Thats all i had to read

 

The rest just appears to be a bunch of black words jumbled together.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Magox

[OCinBuffalo]

1. You're talking about the democrats in NH. Yes, they received backing from the unions and turned their backs on them. Which is why they will not have union endorsements in the future. Very simple. Also, because their actions many unions are thinking of doing what the IAFF is doing and pulling their PAC money from Federal Campaigns and moving it to other items.

Um, no. Guess you didn't read the article, huh? Small matter. It's a much bigger problem than NH when the Illinois Governor and the Connecticut Governor and NY Governor, and on and on, all Democrats, are doing the exact same thing Scott Walker did...minus the hubub.

 

And, I told you this would happen, because nobody actually thinks the concept of the union is a rational one(every worker is not the same, doesn't do the same work, therefore shouldn't be paid the same). Instead, we are willing to tolerate them...until we are not.

2. So unions were acting stupidly because they were marching in the streets, wanting to have their voices heard when fighting to keep their Collective Bargaining Rights? So I guess you hated seeing the Tea Party people in the streets as well? What about their talk about recalls or voting people out of office? I guess speaking out and pushing to use your vote in order to gain change is a bad thing.

No. Marching in the streets is merely a tactic. When used properly-->Tea Party, it can be very effective. When used stupidly--->Wisconsin union people, it is self-destructive. The difference here is: I told you that the fight was already over, and that marching'/having hate spewing fools on TV saying factually incorrect things...would only hurt the unions. I was right.

 

Nothing more likely to prove you are a paper tiger than a whole bunch of idle threats. Where's the recall? You threatened all kinds of other things, too? Where are they? As I said, all you are going to do with that is prove that you are petty and worse, impotent. Instead of seeing the political realities as they are, and preparing the proper tactical response...these idiots determined to have a prolonged nutty on national TV, only serving to confirm every accusation about unions and their members. Fail.

3. Forced union dues. Usually when someone joins a group or organization they have dues. I guess in the unions case they should be allowed to be a member, receive the benefits that unions bargain for yet not pay dues. Ok? It's so bad for their dues to come out of their paychecks. Oh the horror. You talk about Soros, are you forgetting the Koch Brothers? Believe me the poor Republican Party has MANY huge donors.

What? Words from the article, not mine. A revenue stream that is constant and predictable is preferable to one that is not. That's the first point you missed.

 

The second one is: For all time George Soros money will be seen as illegitimate since he is on record saying all kinds of retarded/socialist things and talking about his agenda. In contrast, find me 5 damning quotes from either Koch brother. Even if you can, nobody knows about it. Everybody knows about Soros. Apples and Oranges.

4. Far left…. I agree in part they are hurting the Democratic Party. I would much rather see the party leaning more towards center and most Democrats I know feel the same way. If you pay attention you will see the Republicans on the far right doing the same thing to their party. People on the left and right are getting sick of the extreme party views and need/ want things to get done in Washington. The way for that to happen? Both parties moving towards the center.

Right, the major difference between the extremes is: the ones on the right wants to pretty much stick with the models/system/values we have. The left wants to create the USSR all over again. In general, the left's vision takes a hell of a lot more "suspension of disbelief" for people to accept.

• Mario Cuomo is doing what many others are doing… planning to raise the retirement age, working towards having employees pay a bit more towards pensions, etc.
• Scott Walker is a freak show… lied about true intentions. Wisconsin's Pension Plan was/is one of the healthiest in the country. Also those, as you call them bad union people, gave into concessions offering to pay more towards pensions and benefits. Did you also know that Walker is making efforts to push his own appointees into state agencies. In other words he needs more people that share and will protect his ideas.
• Chris Christie - he's a blow hard. Big mouth and honestly I think people will not agree with his policies. Getting boo'ed during a commencement speech. Awesome.
• Kasich - Another one I am not terribly worried about. He pushed through Legislation in Ohio, even removing people within the Republican Party who didn't share his view. Nice guy. Good thing is that there should be enough votes to put that legislation to a vote by the people and out of his dirty little hands.

 

Bottom line, I have no problem with States asking union members to pay a bit more towards pensions/benefits. However that should be enough. Again, I love the fact that republicans played their hand so early. LOVE IT!!

 

You may not agree with me and I really don't care if you do. There has been a huge amount of people signing up with pro-union groups since the Wisconsin thing went down. There continue to be rallies all over the country. Some as large as 10,000+. Unions did screw up and didn't fight hard enough against these people who don't care about the middle-class during the past election. That will not happen again. Democrats, Progressives, etc. ARE letting their voices be heard and will continue to do so in the next election. Now as far as unions being coddled… come on. I am sure you positive you think that large oil companies still deserve their tax breaks right? Aren't they being coddled? Funny how they pay taxes everywhere else in the world, BUT the U.S.

 

By the way… I am always honest. I always speak my mind whether you like it or not. That won't change.

1. You may not be worried about these politicians, but, you had better get used to them being in their jobs, or President someday. Because of their wins over the unions, they will all be re-elected.

2. You really don't understand political strategy do you? You LOVE the fact that a winning model has been developed, tested and implemented over 15 times now...heading into an election year? You love the fact that every other governor will soon be copy catting this model going forward? After this steam roller of anti-left thinking has been allowed to pick up momentum for a year...you love that next year at this time it will be peaking?

3. The pro-union groups can sign all the 10k petitions(where that # comes from) it wants. It's not going to beat the 100k people who don't agree with you who are enjoying not leaving their homes, not having to argue with you, and defeating you all the same. It's not a # of people in the street thing: and that's what you dolts don't seem to get. If all the people who don't agree with you get to stay home, do nothing, ignore you, and still see the union's collective bargaining ability severely curtailed....then they win, big. That's pretty much what happened.

 

My only question is: the data i used to make my predictions was available to everyone, so why didn't the union bosses act accordingly?

 

4. Why are we talking about oil companies...in a thread about how badly the unions screwed themselves?

[pBills]

Um, no. Guess you didn't read the article, huh? Small matter. It's a much bigger problem than NH when the Illinois Governor and the Connecticut Governor and NY Governor, and on and on, all Democrats, are doing the exact same thing Scott Walker did...minus the hubub.

 

And, I told you this would happen, because nobody actually thinks the concept of the union is a rational one(every worker is not the same, doesn't do the same work, therefore shouldn't be paid the same). Instead, we are willing to tolerate them...until we are not.

 

No. Marching in the streets is merely a tactic. When used properly-->Tea Party, it can be very effective. When used stupidly--->Wisconsin union people, it is self-destructive. The difference here is: I told you that the fight was already over, and that marching'/having hate spewing fools on TV saying factually incorrect things...would only hurt the unions. I was right.

 

Nothing more likely to prove you are a paper tiger than a whole bunch of idle threats. Where's the recall? You threatened all kinds of other things, too? Where are they? As I said, all you are going to do with that is prove that you are petty and worse, impotent. Instead of seeing the political realities as they are, and preparing the proper tactical response...these idiots determined to have a prolonged nutty on national TV, only serving to confirm every accusation about unions and their members. Fail.

 

What? Words from the article, not mine. A revenue stream that is constant and predictable is preferable to one that is not. That's the first point you missed.

 

The second one is: For all time George Soros money will be seen as illegitimate since he is on record saying all kinds of retarded/socialist things and talking about his agenda. In contrast, find me 5 damning quotes from either Koch brother. Even if you can, nobody knows about it. Everybody knows about Soros. Apples and Oranges.

 

Right, the major difference between the extremes is: the ones on the right wants to pretty much stick with the models/system/values we have. The left wants to create the USSR all over again. In general, the left's vision takes a hell of a lot more "suspension of disbelief" for people to accept.

 

1. You may not be worried about these politicians, but, you had better get used to them being in their jobs, or President someday. Because of their wins over the unions, they will all be re-elected.

2. You really don't understand political strategy do you? You LOVE the fact that a winning model has been developed, tested and implemented over 15 times now...heading into an election year? You love the fact that every other governor will soon be copy catting this model going forward? After this steam roller of anti-left thinking has been allowed to pick up momentum for a year...you love that next year at this time it will be peaking?

3. The pro-union groups can sign all the 10k petitions(where that # comes from) it wants. It's not going to beat the 100k people who don't agree with you who are enjoying not leaving their homes, not having to argue with you, and defeating you all the same. It's not a # of people in the street thing: and that's what you dolts don't seem to get. If all the people who don't agree with you get to stay home, do nothing, ignore you, and still see the union's collective bargaining ability severely curtailed....then they win, big. That's pretty much what happened.

 

My only question is: the data i used to make my predictions was available to everyone, so why didn't the union bosses act accordingly?

 

4. Why are we talking about oil companies...in a thread about how badly the unions screwed themselves?

 

 

Did I read the article… no. I don't need the article to tell me what is going on. I work within an International Union. We have meetings about what is going on around the country and in Canada regularly.

 

You told me this would happen? Ok? I do love your belief that no one thinks the concept of a union is a rational one. Again. ok? Can you tell me the next time I need to take crap too? Because that is what your putting out here.

 

So you are a hypocrite when it comes to people demonstrating… Tea Party is ok because you agree with them. Unions it's bad because you disagree with them. Fact of the matter is that the fight is not over, if you think it is you are a fool.

 

In Wisconsin they have upwards of six in danger of recall. Paperwork has already been turned in. Funny thing is that I have yet to hear you complain about the Republicans threat of recalling Democrats in Wisconsin. I wonder why? Either you had no clue or just chose not to talk about them. I also love how you act as though you truly know what is going on because you see some people on TV. You really have no idea.

 

Who gives a crap if the Koch Brothers actually "saying" anything at all… it's documented that they donate a **** load of money during election cycles. Here's a little article about Soros and the Koch Brothers http://mediamatters.org/blog/201105160009

 

"Right, the major difference between the extremes is: the ones on the right wants to pretty much stick with the models/system/values we have. The left wants to create the USSR all over again. In general, the left's vision takes a hell of a lot more "suspension of disbelief" for people to accept. " HAHAHAHAHA And statements like that PROVE that you are a freaking' loon. How about the far right wants to push the models/system THEY believe in and others must follow. Hell even a Republican candidate said that the far right was wrong. Thanks Newt!!

 

In response:

 

1. You may not be worried about these politicians, but, you had better get used to them being in their jobs, or President someday. Because of their wins over the unions, they will all be re-elected. Doubt it and with your half-bag of Presidential Candidates unlikely.

 

2. You really don't understand political strategy do you? You LOVE the fact that a winning model has been developed, tested and implemented over 15 times now...heading into an election year? You love the fact that every other governor will soon be copy catting this model going forward? After this steam roller of anti-left thinking has been allowed to pick up momentum for a year...you love that next year at this time it will be peaking?

Your winning model was scare the **** out of people and make ridiculous statements over and over and over again until the loons follow along. ie: Death Panels, etc.

 

3. The pro-union groups can sign all the 10k petitions(where that # comes from) it wants. It's not going to beat the 100k people who don't agree with you who are enjoying not leaving their homes, not having to argue with you, and defeating you all the same. It's not a # of people in the street thing: and that's what you dolts don't seem to get. If all the people who don't agree with you get to stay home, do nothing, ignore you, and still see the union's collective bargaining ability severely curtailed....then they win, big. That's pretty much what happened.

How about the 300,000 people that lost their collective bargaining right in Ohio alone… oh by the way that's more than enough to cover putting that legislation to a vote. I guess you are also forgetting the 80% of people polled who believed going after Collective Bargaining Rights was to far. And where did you get your amazing data from? Fox News?